opinions on PBM "drift spec manifold"
01-31-11, 05:20 AM
#27
egt sensor, whatever. Nice manifold btw. That doesn't mean i like you.
I'm aware Pie cuts dont flow as well as mandrel bends. The problem is my friends dont have the bank for mandrel. I can do weld el's but they can't afford those either. I can and those who can are more than welcome to have me use those as they are easy to work with. Pricey but makes for a strong piece. Doing work for them and side jobs making grills and bbq's, tables, benches, trailers...whatever will fund my hobbies this year and hopefully for a long time after.
As far as downpipe/exhaust/charge piping goes, on MY personal car, anything that can be pie cut will be pie cut. My twin bank stock cast manifolds to merged sinktrap single turbo manifold i'll be doing will make people scratch their heads. That's for sure. Pie cuts on a 4" dp.
I dont care about sqeezing every last drop of power doing **** with hella science and money. The great thing is i dont NEED to spend alot of time and money to make 350-400hp on my own build and LOVE that.
That's why I am different from you. Why should i do everything the way you like? Why should anyone? That doesn't make things fun. I'm all about keeping **** fun. If everyone has the mentality they need a bunch of money and time to make a cool car, drifting will turn into nascar and it wont be fun anymore.
I'm aware Pie cuts dont flow as well as mandrel bends. The problem is my friends dont have the bank for mandrel. I can do weld el's but they can't afford those either. I can and those who can are more than welcome to have me use those as they are easy to work with. Pricey but makes for a strong piece. Doing work for them and side jobs making grills and bbq's, tables, benches, trailers...whatever will fund my hobbies this year and hopefully for a long time after.
As far as downpipe/exhaust/charge piping goes, on MY personal car, anything that can be pie cut will be pie cut. My twin bank stock cast manifolds to merged sinktrap single turbo manifold i'll be doing will make people scratch their heads. That's for sure. Pie cuts on a 4" dp.
I dont care about sqeezing every last drop of power doing **** with hella science and money. The great thing is i dont NEED to spend alot of time and money to make 350-400hp on my own build and LOVE that.
That's why I am different from you. Why should i do everything the way you like? Why should anyone? That doesn't make things fun. I'm all about keeping **** fun. If everyone has the mentality they need a bunch of money and time to make a cool car, drifting will turn into nascar and it wont be fun anymore.
01-31-11, 01:59 PM
#28
Sideways is the only way
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I was thinking of getting an s5 rear iron because I heard s4 rear irons crack around a dowel pin hole or something when you are making good power. some one told me that I should not have to worry about it because my power goals of 375 rwhp max probably won't crack it. I was told it was an issue for high hp cars (like 5-600hp and up) but might still pick an s5 one up just because.
-crash- I will eventually be running 300-350rwhp and will be running stand alone ems so could (or have to) run a map sensor. I was reading some info somewhere on here and one guy said that you get better performance from running w/o a bov at all because all that back pressure just sits there and when you get back on the gas it spools up the turbo faster. I don't see that being good for the engine longevity wise though. anyway, I just wanted to see if I could get some sort of performance gain from recirculating since I AM going to do it just to get rid of that psht noise every shift. I'll probably try to fab up a 2 waste gate system when I switch to an aftermarket manifold and turbo if there aren't any that support a dual system already. can't be too hard if I do my research. I'll just port the s5 wastegate on the stock setup until I upgrade.
thanks for all the help and info guys.
01-31-11, 06:37 PM
#29
I thought about running an rew/re ecu on an s4 keg at one point with emanage.
400hp+ made reliably on a bunch of cars in japan but no mention of running that setup on an s4/s5 engine.
Anything to get rid of the MAF/AFM and make good power on a budget. I might test that theory out when time and funds allow. The rotors and e shaft are phased the same way. The peanut shapes are the same so i see no reason why it wouldn't work.
If a friend of mine cops out on his fd build and decides to part it or swap something else in, i'll buy his knight sports ecu and harness along with all his sensors and maybe toss my 13b in a miata or corolla. I keep saying i'm going to sell it but unless i'm REALLY hard up for cash, i can't get rid of this engine. I love it too much.
400hp+ made reliably on a bunch of cars in japan but no mention of running that setup on an s4/s5 engine.
Anything to get rid of the MAF/AFM and make good power on a budget. I might test that theory out when time and funds allow. The rotors and e shaft are phased the same way. The peanut shapes are the same so i see no reason why it wouldn't work.
If a friend of mine cops out on his fd build and decides to part it or swap something else in, i'll buy his knight sports ecu and harness along with all his sensors and maybe toss my 13b in a miata or corolla. I keep saying i'm going to sell it but unless i'm REALLY hard up for cash, i can't get rid of this engine. I love it too much.
01-31-11, 07:05 PM
#30
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-crash- I will eventually be running 300-350rwhp and will be running stand alone ems so could (or have to) run a map sensor. I was reading some info somewhere on here and one guy said that you get better performance from running w/o a bov at all because all that back pressure just sits there and when you get back on the gas it spools up the turbo faster. I don't see that being good for the engine longevity wise though. anyway, I just wanted to see if I could get some sort of performance gain from recirculating since I AM going to do it just to get rid of that psht noise every shift. I'll probably try to fab up a 2 waste gate system when I switch to an aftermarket manifold and turbo if there aren't any that support a dual system already. can't be too hard if I do my research. I'll just port the s5 wastegate on the stock setup until I upgrade.
01-31-11, 07:47 PM
#31
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Testing and results of compressor surge are inconclusive when it comes to damage to the turbocharger or its' lifespan. Case in point, I've got two OEM Mitsu TD05-12As off G54Bs, one off my Starion and one off a parts Conquest, both of which have over 180,000 miles of OEM BOV-less piping being hooked to them, and there isn't any shaft play at all. Never been rebuilt, and have seen everywhere from the OEM 7psi clear up to 25psi in my Starion. That's a lot of airflow for a forklift engine.
Speaking of Knight Sports ECUs, a friend of mine just offered me his S5 KS ECU to use in my S4 N/A ... I'm seriously considering getting all S5 sensors and a Holset, building a harness, and going ape-**** on this 6-port.
Speaking of Knight Sports ECUs, a friend of mine just offered me his S5 KS ECU to use in my S4 N/A ... I'm seriously considering getting all S5 sensors and a Holset, building a harness, and going ape-**** on this 6-port.
01-31-11, 07:57 PM
#32
That's compressor stall/flutter.
Compressor surge is a totally different matter and WILL cause certain turbo failure.
Not running a bov and fluttering your turbo causing failure is a 50/50 debate. There's no proof that backs one is any better than the other in terms of reliability.
Compressor surge is a totally different matter and WILL cause certain turbo failure.
Not running a bov and fluttering your turbo causing failure is a 50/50 debate. There's no proof that backs one is any better than the other in terms of reliability.
01-31-11, 08:07 PM
#33
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I guess you're referring to this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCj6Spwl1CU
And not this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEUWEsqoWz8
Love this damned sound: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SUI8_2YxHg
If I have to replace turbos every year, it'll be worth it.
And not this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEUWEsqoWz8
Love this damned sound: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SUI8_2YxHg
If I have to replace turbos every year, it'll be worth it.
01-31-11, 09:29 PM
#34
Sideways is the only way
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I probably didn't explain it right. I found the thread, guy talking about no bov sounds like he thinks he knows something but I can't tell if it's bs.
https://www.rx7club.com/single-turbo-rx-7s-23/question-about-recirculating-bov-into-turbo-936141/
https://www.rx7club.com/single-turbo-rx-7s-23/question-about-recirculating-bov-into-turbo-936141/
01-31-11, 09:53 PM
#35
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That's compressor stall/flutter.
Compressor surge is a totally different matter and WILL cause certain turbo failure.
Not running a bov and fluttering your turbo causing failure is a 50/50 debate. There's no proof that backs one is any better than the other in terms of reliability.
Compressor surge is a totally different matter and WILL cause certain turbo failure.
Not running a bov and fluttering your turbo causing failure is a 50/50 debate. There's no proof that backs one is any better than the other in terms of reliability.
Quoted from the TurboByGarrett.com website.
http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbob...r/faqs.html#t9
What is compressor surge?
The surge region, located on the left-hand side of the compressor map (known as the surge line), is an area of flow instability typically caused by compressor inducer stall. The turbo should be sized so that the engine does not operate in the surge range. When turbochargers operate in surge for long periods of time, bearing failures may occur. When referencing a compressor map, the surge line is the line bordering the islands on their far left side.
Compressor surge is when the air pressure after the compressor is actually higher than what the compressor itself can physically maintain. This condition causes the airflow in the compressor wheel to back up, build pressure, and sometimes stall. In cases of extreme surge, the thrust bearings of the turbo can be destroyed, and will sometimes even lead to mechanical failure of the compressor wheel itself.
Common conditions that result in compressor surge on turbocharger gasoline engines are:
◦A compressor bypass valve is not integrated into the intake plumbing between the compressor outlet and throttle body
◦The outlet plumbing for the bypass valve is too small or restrictive
◦The turbo is too big for the application
The surge region, located on the left-hand side of the compressor map (known as the surge line), is an area of flow instability typically caused by compressor inducer stall. The turbo should be sized so that the engine does not operate in the surge range. When turbochargers operate in surge for long periods of time, bearing failures may occur. When referencing a compressor map, the surge line is the line bordering the islands on their far left side.
Compressor surge is when the air pressure after the compressor is actually higher than what the compressor itself can physically maintain. This condition causes the airflow in the compressor wheel to back up, build pressure, and sometimes stall. In cases of extreme surge, the thrust bearings of the turbo can be destroyed, and will sometimes even lead to mechanical failure of the compressor wheel itself.
Common conditions that result in compressor surge on turbocharger gasoline engines are:
◦A compressor bypass valve is not integrated into the intake plumbing between the compressor outlet and throttle body
◦The outlet plumbing for the bypass valve is too small or restrictive
◦The turbo is too big for the application
What is the difference between a BOV and a Bypass Valve? How do they work, and are they necessary?
A Blow Off Valve (BOV) is a valve that is mounted on the intake pipe after the turbo but before the throttle body. A BOV's purpose is to prevent compressor surge. When the throttle valve is closed, the vacuum generated in the intake manifold acts on the actuator to open the valve, venting boost pressure in order to keep the compressor out of surge.
Bypass valves are also referred to as compressor bypass valves, anti-surge valves, or recirculating valves. The bypass valve serves the same function as a BOV, but recirculates the vented air back to the compressor inlet, rather than to the atmosphere as with a BOV.
A Blow Off Valve (BOV) is a valve that is mounted on the intake pipe after the turbo but before the throttle body. A BOV's purpose is to prevent compressor surge. When the throttle valve is closed, the vacuum generated in the intake manifold acts on the actuator to open the valve, venting boost pressure in order to keep the compressor out of surge.
Bypass valves are also referred to as compressor bypass valves, anti-surge valves, or recirculating valves. The bypass valve serves the same function as a BOV, but recirculates the vented air back to the compressor inlet, rather than to the atmosphere as with a BOV.
02-01-11, 01:08 AM
#36
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Nobody here is technically right, it's a gray area of automotive tech that will be argued to the end of time, until someone actually proves something correct.
I still think it sounds ******* awesome.
I still think it sounds ******* awesome.
02-01-11, 09:26 AM
#37
I agree with nopistons. Surge under load is bad and damaging to your turbo. Surge off throttle is relatively harmless. Logs have shown quicker spool between shifts with no bov because you aren't dumping all pressure to atmosphere. You quoted Garrett but it does not say that off throttle compressor surge is bad for the turbo only extreme surge (on throttle). Shaft speed drops like a brick off throttle with or without a bov anyway because there is nothing driving the turbine and air has resistance. Many factory cars have come without bovs with no turbo failure (lotus is one of them) Even the Mazda tech sheets describe the factory bov as a way to reduce noise. If bovs were really so important how come bov manufacturers don't post cfm ratings to properly size them for your setup?
Do what you will but my car will not have a bov, lets see how long my $2k gt4088r lasts. Not that my car will ever run...
Do what you will but my car will not have a bov, lets see how long my $2k gt4088r lasts. Not that my car will ever run...
02-01-11, 04:32 PM
#41
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02-01-11, 04:53 PM
#42
https://www.rx7club.com/single-turbo-rx-7s-23/8-months-counting-no-blowoff-valve-884695/
OP has a comparable journal bearing turbo.
And again, Lotus had old *** journal bearing turbos without a bov on a production car.
OP has a comparable journal bearing turbo.
And again, Lotus had old *** journal bearing turbos without a bov on a production car.
Last edited by Turbo II Rotor; 02-01-11 at 04:58 PM.
02-01-11, 05:59 PM
#44
Sideways is the only way
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nice info in that thread turbo II rotor. I am really just looking to get rid of the bov noise since apparently what I was referring to seems to be an anti lag system which isn't good to daily/drift AT ALL. I was confused and thought that recirculating could keep the turbo spooled a little better during shifts but an anti lag system seems to be the only way so that is out. running w/o a bov doesn't seem worth it for no benefits and I would still get a lot of noise.
02-01-11, 06:01 PM
#45
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You won't get rid of the noise on a boosted car unless you have a full stock airbox and a thick filter with all baffles in place. Even then, you'll still hear it. Just the nature of a turbocharged vehicle.
Just recirc your BOV and put an OEM airbox on your car. That's as quiet as it's gonna get.
Just recirc your BOV and put an OEM airbox on your car. That's as quiet as it's gonna get.
02-01-11, 07:00 PM
#46
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Lol compressor surge damaging...
CSB: Semi running 40 pounds up a hill or under full load and letting off the throttle quick(Don't tell me diesel's dont surge because of no throttle plate BS): probably more "damage" then any 15 - 20 psi your cars will see. It doesn't do ****.
CSB: Semi running 40 pounds up a hill or under full load and letting off the throttle quick(Don't tell me diesel's dont surge because of no throttle plate BS): probably more "damage" then any 15 - 20 psi your cars will see. It doesn't do ****.
02-01-11, 08:16 PM
#47
Sideways is the only way
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You won't get rid of the noise on a boosted car unless you have a full stock airbox and a thick filter with all baffles in place. Even then, you'll still hear it. Just the nature of a turbocharged vehicle.
Just recirc your BOV and put an OEM airbox on your car. That's as quiet as it's gonna get.
Just recirc your BOV and put an OEM airbox on your car. That's as quiet as it's gonna get.
I'm just going to incorporate a kazoo into my bov and run party horns out my exhaust. that would be something to see. picturing that, I can't stop laughing. I know they would melt but I can dream can't I? ok, sleep deprived, moving on...
02-01-11, 11:01 PM
#48
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Lol compressor surge damaging...
CSB: Semi running 40 pounds up a hill or under full load and letting off the throttle quick(Don't tell me diesel's dont surge because of no throttle plate BS): probably more "damage" then any 15 - 20 psi your cars will see. It doesn't do ****.
CSB: Semi running 40 pounds up a hill or under full load and letting off the throttle quick(Don't tell me diesel's dont surge because of no throttle plate BS): probably more "damage" then any 15 - 20 psi your cars will see. It doesn't do ****.
02-02-11, 01:54 AM
#49
I just want to lessen the volume as much as is possible. I just find it annoying but I suppose I could just try to keep it out of boost around town.
I'm just going to incorporate a kazoo into my bov and run party horns out my exhaust. that would be something to see. picturing that, I can't stop laughing. I know they would melt but I can dream can't I? ok, sleep deprived, moving on...
I'm just going to incorporate a kazoo into my bov and run party horns out my exhaust. that would be something to see. picturing that, I can't stop laughing. I know they would melt but I can dream can't I? ok, sleep deprived, moving on...
We lost scope of the original topic entirely. Sweet!
Turbo II rotor and I are actually getting along. Holy ****.
Kazoo, duck call, an oscar mayer weenie whistle....etc attached to the bov is cool.
And yeah, it's true you lose shaft speed (some girls might complain about that but that's for the lounge) but your piping/core stays somewhat pressurized so when you crack the throttle open again, you'll be in boost quicker and spool the turbo right back up faster....in theory which turbo II rotor already said. People would rather puke up info from a random website than use their brains sometimes. We're all guilty of not using them here and there and that's ok. I was told for YEARS if you dont run a bov you're gonna **** your **** up. I looked and searched and tried my *** off to find evidence of turbo failure due to NOT running a bov and didn't find much if anything on the subject. Just a bunch of said over and over again hearsay **** that you see on every car forum regarding turbocharging noobertry. I could have saved alot of money and time fitting an ssqv to my last project car and i wish i could go back in time and smack myself in the face with a pipe wrench prior to clicking "buy it now".
As far as ALS, TRUE ALS, i hope to **** your turbine wheel is made of inconel as you are pretty much turning your turbocharger into a jet engine. Lots and lots of combustion going on inside your turbo to keep it spooled off throttle so you're pretty much always in boost. The rally cars that run these systems rebuild their turbos rather often and i'm told it cooks exhaust valves. I dont see why it wouldn't be awesome in a drift car so i inquired and that's the verbatim response....not really worth it. There's a huge thread on driftworks about it as well.
