Feds

I posted this over at CASC. If you guys were smart, you'd start writing your MP

Define street racing.

Is a run from a light to 10-15 over the limit "Street Racing"?

When the jackass in the Expedition won't move out of the left lane, and speeds up when you try to pass on the right, is that street racing?

How about actually passing someone on a country road? Could that be street racing?

How about when I hustle my street car through the country at 2-3 times the limit? That's gotta be street racing.

What about 4-5 cars hustling down the 401 at 140, but no passing? Is that a race?

Our society is founded on INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY. For this law not to erode that philosophy, there needs to be strict criteria that determine what a Street Race is.

Since this is next to impossible, what we have here is our representatives in government WASTING YOUR TIME AND MONEY putting in BS unenforcable laws into effect, instead of.... oh.... say....

LOWERING OUR TAXES
REBUILDING OUR MILITARYT
PAYING DOWN THE DEBT
WORKING ON NATIONAL UNITY
ETC, ETC, ETC...

This is government by soundbite, and is used to apeal to all the people too stupid to understand that the role of the government is to institute long term solutions to problems that actually affect more than 0.000000000001% of our population, NOT to make knee jerk reactions to the latest headline stealer.

pd_day

iTrader: (6)

Well, looky here, more fuel for the fire.
To me, it could be a case of an improper left turn. However, media has made it sound like it's another street racing victim....

______________________________________



High speed may have been a factor in a crash that killed a husband and wife just days after the federal government announced plans to crack down on street racers.

A seven-year-old girl is now an orphan after her parents, 47-year-old Robert Manchester and his 43-year-old wife Lisa, were pronounced dead at the scene where their vehicle was hit by another car while they were trying to make a left hand turn from Yonge onto Stouffville Road Saturday night.

“We have information that there was two sports-type cars, Honda motor vehicles that were travelling at a high rate of speed northbound on Yonge Street immediately prior to the accident,” York Regional Police Staff Sgt. Gary Miner explained.

The driver of the other car is in serious condition in hospital.

On Thursday, Prime Minister Stephen Harper announced tough new penalties for drivers with a need for speed.

He says his government will make street racing a new criminal offence and that the proposed legislation would include driving prohibitions for those convicted of participating in the illegal competitions.

Police say drag racing is a senseless crime that doesn’t have to end in death.

“It’s just sad. You’ve got a seven-year-old who’s now an orphan and people that are without relatives – it’s just sad,” Miner said.

The 19-year-old driver of the third vehicle now faces a string of charges, including criminal negligence causing death and dangerous driving.

85rotarypower

In that little article above, the car turning left probably did make an illegal left turn. Even if those two cars were travelling along at a regular rate of speed they could have still hit the car turning left with enough force to cause similar damage. I don't know why people hate street racing soo much. I've only participated in street racing a couple times, but both times we make sure there is no real danger and even then I was very alert to danger around me. Like said before, its the idiots that put a bad name on street racing.

There was actually a perfect example of this in my little town of Chatham. A riced out plymouth Laser (turbo AWD version) was racing another car down a long abandoned road at 3am. The road is 4 lanes wide. But the idiots in the laser were drunk. The guy in the passenger seat (owner of the car) was actually passed out and his equally drunk friend was driving. They hit a large cube van at 120+ km/h. There was nothing left of the laser and the rear axle of the cube van was about 100 meters away in the front lawn of a business building. Its these idiots that **** everything up for the rest of us..

Aviator 902S

[QUOTE=Feds]

I posted this over at CASC. If you guys were smart, you'd start writing your MP

Define street racing.

Is a run from a light to 10-15 over the limit "Street Racing"?

When the jackass in the Expedition won't move out of the left lane, and speeds up when you try to pass on the right, is that street racing?

How about actually passing someone on a country road? Could that be street racing?

How about when I hustle my street car through the country at 2-3 times the limit? That's gotta be street racing.

What about 4-5 cars hustling down the 401 at 140, but no passing? Is that a race?

Our society is founded on INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY. For this law not to erode that philosophy, there needs to be strict criteria that determine what a Street Race is.

Absolutely. And of course, the devil is always in the details. Most of us think of a street race as two or more cars blasting off when the light turns green or on a pre-arranged signal in a mutually-pre-meditated manner. The trick is wording the letter of the law in such a manner as to exclude street racers from those guilty of mere impatience, quick acceleration or speeding.

But proving this to be the case would be next to impossible without witnesses or an admission of guilt. Therefore, even a novice lawyer could get a defendant off if there was reasonable doubt. The suspect would be found guilty of a lesser charge such as speeding or reckless driving.

Still, something has to be done about these insecure celibate-against-their-will fucktards who are at least as dangerous as drunk drivers. Incidentally, a conviction for driving while legally drunk is a criminal offense, but nobody seems to be getting their knickers in a twist over that. And drunk driving used to be considered, if not acceptable, no more than a misdemeanor and a weakness--- in much the same way some people still categorize street racing.

Since this is next to impossible, what we have here is our representatives in government WASTING YOUR TIME AND MONEY putting in BS unenforcable laws into effect...

But somehow it was ok for the previous government to bring this up? After all, they did have it on their agenda too--- yet the only complaints were that, like so many other promises made by them, they wouldn't follow through on this one either. And the one they did follow through with (the gun registry) was an absolutely horrendous waste of our time and money--- all to no avail.

...instead of say,

LOWERING OUR TAXES
REBUILDING OUR MILITARYT
PAYING DOWN THE DEBT
WORKING ON NATIONAL UNITY
ETC, ETC, ETC...

All of which are in the works by our current government in power, which is more than we could say for Mr. Dithers and Co.

This is government by soundbite, and is used to apeal to all the people too stupid to understand that the role of the government is to institute long term solutions to problems that actually affect more than 0.000000000001% of our population, NOT to make knee jerk reactions to the latest headline stealer.



OMFG!!!! This perfectly describes the previous government all the way back to 1993! Those bastards spoke whatever they thought would be well received at any given moment and then promptly reneged once the media frenzy over the topic-du-jour died down the following week. They knew full well that the majority of Canadian voters couldn't see past the ends of their noses and would forget everything that was on the front page. (Aw man, give it a rest! That story is so last week!").

Drunk drivers only kill a small fraction of 1% of the Canadian population every year. Should we just let that one slide? Harper promised (among other things) to stand up for the rights of the victims of crime and get tough on those who make it necessary. If he keeps even half of his promises he will have out-done the previous government several times over in that department.

What's also encouraging is that the scare-mongering practiced by the Liberals doesn't seem to be working any more, at least on those with intelligence and wisdom superior to that of a typical cabbage. I'm sure Harper will do at least a few things to **** even me off. But the net results of his policies and changes will be (and have so far been) better for Canada and Canadians as a whole than what Cretien and Martin delivered.

Alak

iTrader: (9)

"They know percisely when auto racing started. When the 2nd Car was invented." ~ Richard Petty - The King.

I got a story about teh definition of street racing.

I was at this set of lights one time in my FB. This Turbo integra was beside me. Light went green and I gave her. No wheelspinning launch, unlike his car. By the time I topped 2nd gear (about 80 kmph, which happend to be the limit) the Teg was probably 5-6 car lengths ahead. I figured I'd shut down at 100kmph, just for the whole 0-60 thing.

Soon as I popped it into 5th to start coasting, the cherries came to life behind me. I pulled over, rolled my window down and the ol officer came to my window.

"What are you crazy? Street Racing in the middle of the city?"

'Officer, that wasn't a race.'

"It wasn't? Then what was it, a walk in the park?"

'Look up racing in the dictionary. It reads, the side by side competition of two competitors. That guy was way ahead of me.'

We bickered a bit and he wrote me a ticket. I ended up fighting it at a court session some time later and won. I maintained with the judge that

A) he had no proof it was a race

B) That guy was, again, way ahead of me.

Moral is, the law can be distorted in many ways.

You can't stop street racing. As long as their are cars, there will be street racing. And as long as tracks are so stringent with safety rules, there will be street racing. Only way to stop street racing is to take away the means, cars.

WHO

You, know, our justice system is based on interpretation. The cops that pull you over have various possibilities with the facts they have in front of them. They can go from letting you off with a warning to revoking your license, have your car towed, and putting you in jail. Cops are also human, therefore their interpretation is based on that and on the facts they ''think'' they have on hand.

Then, you get to court, where there will be a posecutor and a judge, also humans, and also judging you according to interpreation of the facts, and in addition to that, to the law and previous similar cases and their judgements.

This whole system sometimes fail, and that's what scares me the most. Because, in a rap case with technologies like DNA and stuff, mistakes are less and less likely to arise compared to 10 or 20 years back. But for ''illegal street racing'', what facts do they really have? They may even have witnessess, but again, they're humans and are interpreting what they saw. What they saw was that headline in their paper saying how bad and hurtful street racing is, and then they saw someone who it seems was speeding, therefore must've been racing like the article said.
That's what scares me. No technology will tell them what the drivers intensions really were. Perhaps you were just having some fun (not racing) or just passing a dumbnut who had just cut you off (out of frustration). But in a world of ''it's your word againsts theirs'' and the other person is a cop, chances are you will still be convicted and found guilty.

Also, the point about writting your MP, well it's a non-issue. Because, as some have said, it's targeting a very marginal number of people like 0.000001% of drivers. So even if that 0.000001% would *all* (unlikely) write their MPs, there still would have 99.999999% of the population who read their paper this morning and think that street racing is a big issue who support it. And they are electors.

So, yeah, I think we're screwed )o: Let's just hope it will be so hard to prove the facts in a street racing case, that the first few cases will all be dropped due to the doubt generated and in turn make it almost impossible to convict future defenders.
Ironically, that wouldn't solve the problem of reckless driving, but at least the cusual speeder that lives in most of us would not be convicting of a crime he didn't commit.
But the law would be passed and Harpet get re-elected, wether the law actually works or not.

ScrappyDoo

iTrader: (7)

I watched the bail hearing for this kid today in Newmarket Courthouse. He was wearing a honda racing jacket while sitting in the box. He was released on $50k bail. He had about 10-15 kids there with their families supporting him. They were laughing and giggling up a storm while a poor child has been orphaned out of the incident.

I was speaking to a tow truck driver that was helping to get the parents out of the car. He said the parents were on their way back to pickup their kid from the babysitter's. He said the Father was still talking after the accident but they couldn't get him out of the car in time.

classicauto

iTrader: (3)

thats sad

C'mon, he wore his Honda Racing jacket to his bail hearing about Racing Hondas? Im sorry but that in itself points to the fact that this kid probably wouldn't pass an aptitude test let alone a driving test......

pd_day

iTrader: (6)

I wonder what the father said about the accident ..
We won't really know what happened until the investigation is over ....

The kid loosing both of his parents are truely tragic

RacerJason

iTrader: (5)

The license plate on the one Honda read "redrokit". I think the fact these were Honda's is irrelevant. I've seen people at 7 meets, DSM meets, etc. act like children on occasion.

Alak

iTrader: (9)

I agree. What we drive is irrelevent. Its what we do with the automobile we are in.

I tried to drive a Cadillac one time like it was my RX-7. I almost put it off the road. It was close, but I learned real fast.

I dont usually do stupid **** unless nobody is around.

ScrappyDoo

iTrader: (7)

Well to be fair he doesn't get to choose what he is wearing since he would have been in-custody as of the accident. Meaning he was wearing the Honda Racing Jacket when he killed the parents.
I only point it out for the irony of the situation.

I agree that it doesn't matter what he was driving but I can tell you that I have never scene characters like these teeny-boppers at a 7 meet.

classicauto

iTrader: (3)

ahh I see....I figured he got dressed and everything and went, yeah - this will help my out A LOT- hehe.

But I didn't mean to say that it happened the way it did because he was driving a honda - only the sheer stupity of wearing a racing jacket to your bail hearing about street racing, but since he had choice in the matter I guess it flies.......

Man, I have a feeling one day its gonna pay to know you Charn! Although I hope it never comes to that (I hear that one all the time, you too probably - hehe)

p4nc7

iTrader: (1)

We'll be seeing many a stupid kid once the new F&F movie comes out. I think more than anything they need to enforce driving awareness. I've seen people who aren't paying any attention at all to the road cause near accidents. Wouldn't that be more dangerous than kids who were racing? Either way, it's not going to stop, we'd need a massive police force for that. A solution would be to bring in a track close to T.O. They can't drive as it is, so we'd only need the 1/4 mile.

Feds

Sad that this had to happen immediately after the law was anounced.

What are the stats? 31 people in the last 5 years or something like that?

I'll take lifetime bans for people that blow 0.081 ONCE. Don't waste my time on garbage unenforceable street racing laws.

Classic: how prevalent is drunk driving where you live? How many kids died/were injured/came damned close while you were at school?

Let's go after the criminals that have the biggest impact on society, THEN worry about the tiny pockets. This government is pissing on a forest fire, and expecting us all to thank them.

Harvey

It seems to me that organized street racers arent the cause of the problem but are being used as the bigest examples. all of this talk about restricing modefications and criminalizing street racing, are all obviously directed towards those who fit into the tuner category. How is this possible when all i ever here on the news is two kids who stole there rich daddy's 300hp mercedes benz and took it out and killed someone. To me the problem isn't the organized street racers who pore there lives and money into there cars, do you not think that someone like that who is so devoded to his/her car would not know how to drive it. It is so clear to me that Harper is just another hypocrite, that cant seem to identify the real issue witch is the parents, yes thats right ive managed to take a issue involving reckless teenagers and direct it towards the parents, didnt see that one comming(ya right). istead of making all kinds idioteque rules about ristricting the amount of passengers aloud in the vehicle, or changing the driving age. Why not try the most effective change, and limit the amount of power that the g1 g2 drivers are aloud to have in vehicle ei. hp or displacemnet. This way new and inexpierienced with a g1 g2, cant get there rich dady's to buy them a brand new mercades which they then crash into taxis. then again i geuss it would be easier to blame it all on the tuner scene rather than multimillion dollar companies like mercedes, or the rich daddy's who buy them.

Aviator 902S

[QUOTE=Feds]


What are the stats? 31 people in the last 5 years or something like that?

Something like that--- at least the few where the killer was actually found guilty of steet racing rather than a lesser. Sounds like you're suggesting that these relatively low figures indicate that street racing isn't really a problem worth dealing with at all.


I'll take lifetime bans for people that blow 0.081 ONCE. Don't waste my time on garbage unenforceable street racing laws.

Some would argue that driving drunk is also unenforceable considering that the majority still get off with the help of a good lawyer. The racers who are caught in the act will also get off (or at least a lesser) most of the time--- except when they cause an accident where someone is injured or killed. Then the case gets handled with the same attention to detail as any other homicide. Kinda hard to get off if witnesses come forward, plates get recorded and the other racer gets put on trial too.

Classic: how prevalent is drunk driving where you live? How many kids died/were injured/came damned close while you were at school?

More than I care to remember. We also had some close calls while sober. I personally know at least four people from my high school who were killed while racing their buddies or while being in the wrong car with the wrong racer at the wrong time. But like driving drunk, those offenses were not taken as seriously back then.


Let's go after the criminals that have the biggest impact on society, THEN worry about the tiny pockets. This government is pissing on a forest fire, and expecting us all to thank them

Pissing on a forest fire? So now you're saying street racing really is a serious problem? Which is it? I still maintain that we need some teeth in the laws that are supposed to protect us from those who would do us harm, whether intentionally or inadvertently during the course of an illegal and dangerous activity.

Even if Harper only accomplishes 1/10th of this particular objective he will have done more for us than Trudeau, Cretien and Dithers combined in this department. But of course, we're standing on opposite sides of a very tall political fence even if neither of us are leaning very far from center. Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree...

rx7racerca

iTrader: (1)

I have to say I'm with Aaron and Lawyer on this one in asking what's the point? Street racing is already illegal for any number of reasons - and vehicular manslaughter or gross negligence causing death are bound to be more serious charges than any new penalties associated with a law specifically targetted at streetracing. The only way I can see this adding anything to the authority's arsenal is if it gives the ability to seize vehicles - probably wouldn't happen often, but it would definitely suck for the dumb-*** streetracer who loses his $20,000 Honda that he's put $30,000 worth of bling into.
I too am of the opinion that much tougher testing and licensing requirements generally would be of far more benefit. We tend to treat driving as a right here, rather than as a privilege, and so it is almost any moron can get a licence by passing a simple test - once. I got my license when I turned 16 - 22 years ago. I've never been re-tested - including my vision. At 16, my need for corrective lenses was minor, and I wasn't required to have them for driving (something I questioned even with my younger, better eyes - I have never driven without glasses or contacts - I clean my windows before driving most days, I'm that picky about seeing when driving). Now 22 years and 5 or 6 vision prescriptions later, I still don't have to have the lenses for driving, even though I wouldn't walk to the mailbox without them, let alone drive. And needless to say, I've never had to take another road test to certify my skills are up to snuff. Nor has my 64 year-old mom, who's licence test consisted of driving around in circles on the local horse track for 15 minutes, nor my72 year-old dad, who obtained his license in the '40's by paying the $2 fee (actually he would have been tested later for his commercial and airbrake licenses, but that's beside the point).

Tougher and more frequent testing would both up the bar for getting a license, and might reinforce both the rules and the courtesies of the road. This slack attitude to driver testing and skills seems to be a mainly North American phenomenon. In Europe, for example, getting and keeping a license is much tougher, and I think it reflects in the fact skill and attention levels behind the wheel seem to be much higher amongst Europeans. Even truckers are lousy drivers for the most part anymore - driving in the left lane while traffic streams (and steams!) by on the right, or, I really love this, all lanes, so when a light turns green, the 3 semi's lined up side by side can take 20 seconds to clear the intersection, and maybe a dozen cars get through behind them before the light goes red again (and half of those run the red out of frustration). Here in Calgary, a "driving school" was found to have essentially been granting mail-order licenses to hundreds, if not thousands, of mostly out-of-province truckers, and falsified the medical tests, to boot. The school was closed down after operating for years, but although the owners and the doctor were charged, there was no tracking down and re-testing of the truckers who got their licences through the school. The attitude seemed to be, "if there's a problem, they'll have gotten ticketed" - like that helps when someone's dead thru someone else's stupidity.

Feds

Pissing on a forest fire as in:

"Look at me, I am saving a tiny amount of lives while ignoring the huge amount of lives that are lost to other, more easily solved problems."

This is government through media. Steal a few headlines, and the proles will give us our majority.

There are enough laws to properly deal with street racers. Work on enforcing them first, THEN add where necessary.

Aviator 902S

[QUOTE=Feds]

Pissing on a forest fire as in:

"Look at me, I am saving a tiny amount of lives while ignoring the huge amount of lives that are lost to other, more easily solved problems."

Fair enough. There are certainly other illegal activities that cost more lives than street racing accidents do. Gangland shootings come to mind, another area that's being targeted for tougher sentencing by Harper and company.

This is government through media. Steal a few headlines, and the proles will give us our majority.

And the previous government wasn't? Come on Feds, we all know that all political parties are ****** for favourable headlines and I'll be the first to agree that the Conservatives are no exception. The difference is that the so-called neo-cons are following through on their election promises (a welcome change) while at the same time breaking all the promises that Cretien and Martin promised Canadians could expect if Harper ever got in, ie: a very scary neo-con redneck agenda that tramples on even the most basic of human rights.

There are enough laws to properly deal with street racers. Work on enforcing them first, THEN add where necessary.

Yes, the laws do exist, and I have to agree with both you and RX7racerCa on that score. But it's not only the enforcement but also the sentences that need to be ramped up because nothing else is working.

If they injure or kill someone due to street racing (or are the driver of the other car in the race) sieze their cars. Burn their drivers' licences and don't let them get their licence back until they've re-paid the banks for their car, their victims for their losses and any fines outstanding. Make them also pass a comprehensive defensive driving course with a 95% pass mark on both the written and practical portions.

But first, throw them in jail for a year, and let the onus be on them to convince the court that they should get a lighter sentence rather than on the crown to prove that they should get the prescribed sentence. It's called accountability, and far too many Canadians seem to have never heard of it.

Whanrow

My whole problem - totally up to the interpretation of the cop as to what defines street racing. To give you an example - a couple of years ago I hit a deer. I live far out in the country with few houses around, so I nursed the car the 1/2 mile back home and phoned the police. They immediately informed me I had left the scene of an accident, and could be fined up to $5k and potential jail time. The copy who met me at my house said the other cop was just being ridiculous.

Same type of thing could easily happen with what or what isn't street racing.

Feds

Which is what I am most concerned about. This goes against the very foundation of our legal system. INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY. All 4 of those words are equally important. We are taking judicial powers out of the hands of the judges, and put them into the hands of the police officers. This is exactly the scary Neo-Con stuff that we were warned about.

I don't want to turn this into a partisan BS thread, so I will not go down the road of examining the performance of the current government WRT their election promises.

This is a bogus law. It infringes on the powers of the provences. It is either completely unenforceable or puts too much power in the hands of the law enforcement officers. AND it does very little for the general populace.

Waste of my time and money while more important issues are left unattended.

Aviator 902S

There's no argument about the need for a suspect to be presumed innocent until proven guilty. Even the most biased of neo-cons would have to agree there. It's the sentence once proven guilty that needs to be addressed.

And if a rogue cop decides to trump up the charges (as they tend to do in this and other mis-deeds) the likelihood of actually making it stick (given that it would now be a felony case rather than a misdemeanor) would be even less than that of drunk driving cases, where breathalysers can be accepted as proof of guilt.

vipernicus42

iTrader: (4)

But you'd still have to hire a lawyer for the best chance of not being stuck with a record for racing... which is fine with me if I've *done* the crime, but pisses me off if I haven't done anything and the cop just had a night where him seeing my rx7 constitutes racing.

Jon

p4nc7

iTrader: (1)

This would be the thought that scares me most, I consider my a very responsible driver, and don't even step foot in the front seat of a car if I'm intoxicated (or passenger seat). But, I don't want the hassle, or being pulled over simply because I'm driving to pick a friend up.