Need to see more Rotary's. Who wants to join Time Attack!
07-26-11, 01:09 PM
#226
Rotary Freak
OH! Take that garbage brake fluid out of your car ASAP. I tried that once 2-3 years ago cause I couldn't find Motul at the time. It came out the following week. It was doing basically what your describing, after long straights brakes weren't there or would require double pump and after 2-3 laps (TMP) brakes were unpredictable. The problem is your fluid, not your brakes, it get flushed ASAP. I personally use Motul 600 but I recommend Motul 5.1 for most street cars. I bleed mine once a year.
01Racing, your car doesn't have power and its very light so handles well and is capable of taking corners very fast so you hardly need your brakes at all. So you can't compare it to our heavy street cars with more power.
Man, I miss my car, still haven't had a proper track day this year
Soon.... soon....
thewird
01Racing, your car doesn't have power and its very light so handles well and is capable of taking corners very fast so you hardly need your brakes at all. So you can't compare it to our heavy street cars with more power.
Man, I miss my car, still haven't had a proper track day this year
Soon.... soon....thewird
01Racing or Al, runs a PP engine making well over 300 hp. I think it would be interesting to put a g analyst on your car and his to determine the difference in straight line speed going into turn 8 at Mosport. I think you would be surprised at how close they are. What Al is doing is slowing less for the corners than you are. His car also weighs about 800 lbs less than yours and I think that is where the greatest difference lies. I don't know what mph you are pulling going into 8, but in my Cougar I am pulling about 145 mph or about 232 kmh. I know that Al is right there with me or even a bit faster (my RX7 only pulls 220+). Both of us have a ton of working aero on the cars and we both just touch the brakes to settle the cars. When you are really racing, the hard brake application is not in Turn 8, but in Turn 9 so the braking effect is heavier if you carry more speed through the corner and therefore have to slow the car down more.
Also, just because you had issues with the Wilwood 570 doesn't mean everyone does. I have run 570 for years in both cars and actually last year I ran Valvoline full synthetic brake fluid that has a 600 degree boiling point. In 99% of the cases a double pump on the pedal or a soft but consistent pedal means that the brake fluid is contaminated by water/air or that the brake pads have developed a taper or you have flexing caliper mounting positions. The only way that you can tell that you have bad fluid is if you have measured the caliper temps when you are on track. If the calipers exceed 570 degrees sustained, then the fluid will boil and the pedal will go full soft and no amount of pumping will bring it back.
I measure brake temps after every session on track. I am not sure about Al, but very rarely at Mosport do I exceed rotor temps of 700 degrees when I come in to the pits. Quite often I am in the 500 degree range. This means that the calipers and fluids are far less than that and well within functional range of Wilwood 570 brake fluid. At Mosport, if you are getting your brakes hot enough to boil fluid and completely loose the pedal, then you are dragging your brakes, have no airflow through the wheel wells or have a sticky caliper.
For your information, on my RX7 I run the stock single piston setup and my car weighs 2650 lbs. I have done 1.37's in the car and not even in 3 Hour Races at Mosport or 90 minute races at Shannonville have I ever boiled my brake fluid. I have melted the seals out of my calipers, but have never had a brake fluid problem.
Just want to ensure that people don't get cuaght up in marketing hype and the try to actually understand issues before throwing $$$$ at a car.
Eric
07-26-11, 02:12 PM
#227
23Racer, you basically expanded on what I said about the differences in our cars >_>
The big track at Mosport does not push brakes so its not good to use it as a comparison. Neither is Shannonville since you guys only use the outside track. The track everyone is talking about here is the DDT @ Mosport which is brake heavy.
I stand by my Wilwood 570 comment. The double braking was more of a way to get more brake brakes, rather then the traditional first pump has no brakes and 2nd one does. The difference was marginal and the brakes still sucked and it only seemed to be required on certain corners. Remembering correctly now I actually went through 2 track days with it. The first time it happened, I thought they just needed to be bled again. But the second time and the problem persisted I did a flush with motul 5.1 and I now had my old brakes back again. Nothing has changed in my braking setup since I installed my Stoptech BBK many years ago.
So basically...
-nothing wrong with brakes but decide to do a full brake fluid flush with Willwood 570
-brakes are inconsistent and brakes get weaker/unpredictable after few laps
-bleed brakes
-brakes are unchanged
-flush with motul 5.1
-brakes are as they were before the willwood fluid, which is perfect and have been tested on track for over 40 minutes @ the old Dunnville with zero brake fade (thanks to the BBK)
Ionno, maybe I got a bad batch, they were purchased at JRP. I'm not willing to try them again because I consider my brakes perfect as is. Don't want to start an argument, use what you prefer to use, I've shared my experience.
Maybe I'm just picky. I hated BFG R1's as well for similar reasons, they were unpredictable and snappy.
thewird
The big track at Mosport does not push brakes so its not good to use it as a comparison. Neither is Shannonville since you guys only use the outside track. The track everyone is talking about here is the DDT @ Mosport which is brake heavy.
I stand by my Wilwood 570 comment. The double braking was more of a way to get more brake brakes, rather then the traditional first pump has no brakes and 2nd one does. The difference was marginal and the brakes still sucked and it only seemed to be required on certain corners. Remembering correctly now I actually went through 2 track days with it. The first time it happened, I thought they just needed to be bled again. But the second time and the problem persisted I did a flush with motul 5.1 and I now had my old brakes back again. Nothing has changed in my braking setup since I installed my Stoptech BBK many years ago.
So basically...
-nothing wrong with brakes but decide to do a full brake fluid flush with Willwood 570
-brakes are inconsistent and brakes get weaker/unpredictable after few laps
-bleed brakes
-brakes are unchanged
-flush with motul 5.1
-brakes are as they were before the willwood fluid, which is perfect and have been tested on track for over 40 minutes @ the old Dunnville with zero brake fade (thanks to the BBK)
Ionno, maybe I got a bad batch, they were purchased at JRP. I'm not willing to try them again because I consider my brakes perfect as is. Don't want to start an argument, use what you prefer to use, I've shared my experience.
Maybe I'm just picky. I hated BFG R1's as well for similar reasons, they were unpredictable and snappy.
thewird
07-27-11, 09:57 AM
#228
Kenspec
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I have had no issues with the wilwood 570s at present. Im still on street tires, not r-comps and I feel that even with the dtc-60s (stock calipers) and the bfgoodrich kdws, Im quite happy with the setup. Once i learn the car and further develop my driving then ill consider going to something with less than 300 treadwear rating. This season is more of data collection to see what works and doesnt.
At the present time, i am quite surprised that I am putting down the times that I am with the street tires. Im sure there is more time to be found one i raise the car up a little bit and make some changes to the alignment.
At the present time, i am quite surprised that I am putting down the times that I am with the street tires. Im sure there is more time to be found one i raise the car up a little bit and make some changes to the alignment.
07-27-11, 06:03 PM
#229
Go Hard....or Go Home
I think 1st and foremost everyone has to understand that racing vs lapping/time attack are totally different things. I learned that lesson the hard way when I started to co-drive with 23 Racer. I used to brag to him that my Mustang could run hours of lapping at Shannonville and never even fade the brakes with Hawk Blue pads in it. After a year of racing with him I took the Mustang back to Shannonville and ran out of brakes on the 3rd lap. In time attack you run 2 or 3 hot laps, in racing you run a minimum of 20 minutes flat out, no cooling down, no perfect lines etc. When you run offline to either pass someone or just plain make a mistake your tires get crap all over them and you still cant let up or you will get repassed by the car you just passed. If your are in a pack of cars your fluid and brake temps skyrocket because your getting no cooling to the front of the car. My water and oil temps change by 20 degreesF when I draft someone until i pass them. When we give advice we are giving it from the racing point of view not a daily driven car that also goes to lapping days etc. My daily driver is either a Scion TC or a Tundra lol..........and the Tundra doesnt time attack well.
07-28-11, 08:02 AM
#231
Rotary Freak
I think 1st and foremost everyone has to understand that racing vs lapping/time attack are totally different things. I learned that lesson the hard way when I started to co-drive with 23 Racer. I used to brag to him that my Mustang could run hours of lapping at Shannonville and never even fade the brakes with Hawk Blue pads in it. After a year of racing with him I took the Mustang back to Shannonville and ran out of brakes on the 3rd lap. In time attack you run 2 or 3 hot laps, in racing you run a minimum of 20 minutes flat out, no cooling down, no perfect lines etc. When you run offline to either pass someone or just plain make a mistake your tires get crap all over them and you still cant let up or you will get repassed by the car you just passed. If your are in a pack of cars your fluid and brake temps skyrocket because your getting no cooling to the front of the car. My water and oil temps change by 20 degreesF when I draft someone until i pass them. When we give advice we are giving it from the racing point of view not a daily driven car that also goes to lapping days etc. My daily driver is either a Scion TC or a Tundra lol..........and the Tundra doesnt time attack well.
I have to say that Al really took the bit between his teeth and challenged himself to become as good as he always had the talent to be. He is just plainly a very good race driver now. He took the learning curve very calmly and methodically and worked his speed up to point that he and his car are a threat in every race they run in. I believe that he could still do very quick times in his Tundra for at least 3 laps until his brakes faded.
07-28-11, 10:21 AM
#232
Kenspec
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I dont think anyone is questioning the advice/pov that Alan has been providing. And to be fair this thread has titled "timeattack" and the guys that are posting are doing just that, with street cars and not full race cars like you guys are doing. we're also doing it on a smaller DDT track compared to the big track. It is up to the readers to take into account of the type of racing that you guys do. I know personally that my car would never make it to 2 laps with brakes lol.
However it is nice to have your input as it can trickle down to the type of racing that we do. I think the best thing is driver development. Until you go out there and experience it yourself, make the mistakes you need to learn from, then only can you build on your driving and the equipment that you bolt on your car.
However it is nice to have your input as it can trickle down to the type of racing that we do. I think the best thing is driver development. Until you go out there and experience it yourself, make the mistakes you need to learn from, then only can you build on your driving and the equipment that you bolt on your car.
07-28-11, 07:27 PM
#237
Nice Pics, none of mine but I guess I was in the pits most of the day with issues. Do TMP in the next few weeks I'll put up to the $40 and you can pay me the balance and will bing the piillow too it will stop the jack from rolling around my hatch.
P.S. time are up I could not have done any worst if I was driving a LADA
P.S. time are up I could not have done any worst if I was driving a LADA
Last edited by RXeckless; 07-28-11 at 07:31 PM. Reason: P.S.
07-28-11, 08:56 PM
#240
Rotary Enthusiast
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btw, I put these back together tonight. This weekend I will prob spend all of Sunday setting my car up. I'll try to take the FD on. 
BTW Rick, what kind of beer did he bring you??
BTW Rick, what kind of beer did he bring you??
Last edited by Chad D.; 07-28-11 at 08:58 PM.
07-30-11, 09:41 AM
#244
Rotary Enthusiast
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I usually need two weeks to take time off work. (I only work Mon, Wed-Fri @ Cintas.)I'm installing my RB sways/autoexe endlinks and JIC's this weekend. That being said I am looking to track it at other places than Waterford Hills and Grattan this year.
TMP, Mosport, Gingerman and Mid Ohio are my planned track destinations.
Maybe TMP on a Friday evening sometime? + I just have to double check but I am in for the 21st. I'll be registered soon hopefully.
07-31-11, 05:41 AM
#245
Go Hard....or Go Home
Why dont you guys come to Shannonville on Monday?
07-31-11, 07:56 AM
#246
Nice pics, tobad didnt get driving ones but thats k
haha i hope the cupling i gave you got you home!, haha :P!!
same i was in the pits most of the time to...
Nice Pics, none of mine but I guess I was in the pits most of the day with issues. Do TMP in the next few weeks I'll put up to the $40 and you can pay me the balance and will bing the piillow too it will stop the jack from rolling around my hatch.
P.S. time are up I could not have done any worst if I was driving a LADA
P.S. time are up I could not have done any worst if I was driving a LADA
!, haha :P!!same i was in the pits most of the time to...