No, try again.

The 13BREW and 20B thrust washer/outer torrington race aren't the same, and it doesn't take a micrometer to see the difference. The feature you missed on the 13B part is crucial to the assembly of the 13B engine (especially end play). If you knew it was there, it would be easy to distinguish between the 13B and 20B part. But you clearly don't know its there, and this could explain why you are able to decrease end play by over torquing the front bolt because this part can deform if installed incorrectly.

I thought the answer would be obvious to someone whose built a few of these engines. Anyone else know what I'm talking about?

Edit: To your credit, if the 20B you have was rebuilt, they could have used a 13B part in reassembly.

 

well the 20b part that I have and the 13brew are exactly the same, and as far as I
know the 20b I have open here has never been opened before me.
I have had my hands on more than one opened 20b and never seen anything different
in them either.
I think I smell a bit of BS ..
Oh please enlighten me as to what ever it is that's different outside of my world

as for the loss of end play from over torquing I have never seen it in the 92 or newer
it was just the older 13b n/a 's that seemed to be effected.
not that I have tried to over torque an rew 180 to 200 ftlbs I think is enough.
Matt

 

Hoping no one gets pissed off for this going off topic.
just checked the parts book and the 13b re and the 20b share the same part number
and the re thrust washers that I have seen look the same as the rew.
I am going to order a new one so I can take a look at what mazda is using.
and yes I will be ordering the 20b one not just a 13b one.
anyone else need anything from japan while i am at it?

matt

 

The 13B part has a chamfer on one side of the ID... the 20B one I have seen didn't have this. It was from a D-series 20B that had been rebuilt.

The chamfer is to provide clearance for the fillet between the two stepped diameters on the eccentric shaft that the thrust washer sits against. Because the 20B front lobe is a separate piece, this fillet is (was?) absent and Mazda didn't machine a chamfer into the 20B washer, probably to save the $0.50 it costs for the machining operation.

If you put the washer in with the chamfer facing away from the fillet, the washer won't sit against the shoulder on the eccentric shaft and will leave a gap. Overtorquing (or even torquing to the proper spec) would deform the washer and take up any free -play. I was thinking that this is what you were doing, but it's a pretty obvious mistake to make for someone whose built these engines before, and certainly for someone who knows everything.

The part number could have been superceeded by the 13B part. Mazda doesn't even make big dollar 20B intermediate plates or eccentric shafts anymore, so why would they produce a 20B specific washer when the 13B one will work fine? In fact it seems kinda stupid that they would produce two different parts in the first place.

Regardless of how you're installing this part, you're still over torquing the front bolt which alone could be the reason why you are able to minimize end play. Mazda gives a torque specification for a reason and it should be followed because it takes into account, among other things, material properties like yield stress.

 

ok go back and read, post #25
mazda terms suck.
thrust washer is stupid!
thats why i call these parts inside and outside torrington races!
i even said that i was looking at the outside race, they are the same.
the inside one is a little different as i posted back at #25
and you have to be some kind of stupid to put this part in backwards.
matt

 

and my Signature stands

 

"appears a little less tapered" and "doesn't have a chamfer on one side of the I.D." are two completely different descriptions. If you're going to claim to know everything, you better start learning the proper names of basic mechanical design features.

"Torrington bearing race" could describe any flat surface and is too general. Thrust plate describes the parts intended purpose and provides a much better description of the part for someone who is trying to locate the it while building an engine. Besides, there is no "inner" and no "outer" race with torrington bearings... think about where the races are in relation to the bearings! They certainly aren't inside and outside the bearings, in the sense of axial positions like with other bearing types! Maybe if this were a taper bearing or a ball bearing you could call them inner and outer races, but not with a torrington.

 

the one in my bearing race has less taper, but it still has a machined chamfer like the 13b just less

inner and outer should have been a given, calling it a thrust washer or a race.
mazda calles both the inner and outer a thrust washer guess you should have
said which you were talking about, I did.

taper / chamfer ,, ok to the inside of the id.

bearing race is any surface that a bearing runs on. torrington or not.

anything else
matt

 

Wonder how Bryon is making out, finding the real reason why this has happened of course, sorry for getting between you two guys.... we need to know

 

I have a question for B6T. or anyone else who knows.
how old are you? just wondering....

 

+ 1

 

Sorry for going off-topic, I didn't intend to get so out of hand.

I don't see how it matters. I'm old enough to know a few things but young and immature enough to waste time arguing pointless little details over the internet with you.

Anyway, I'm done discussing this with you because it isn't productive any more.

 

Off topic and if it wasnt for Matt's awfully arogant signature I probably wouldnt post but.......Matt just got owned! Hard to do considering I think he's correct.

 

I was thinking of changing my signature to what Mobius has on 780 forum
I think it applies more so than my arrogant sig
his is:
"
Never argue with an idiot. They will bring you down to their level and beat you with experience
"

I kind of figured that b6t was about hmmm maybe 20 at the most
I have had a 20b powered fc for longer than you have had your license
Matt

 

yes it would be interesting to hear what the cause was,
would be to funny if I was right.
if the failure was due to being to tight of end play there will be black residue
on the keeper plate that's between the torrington bearings.
lets see pictures !!
Matt

 

That's a good quote. I'm glad you realized why I stopped arguing with you in my previous post, and shared it with the rest of the forum.

 

glad you did post
you can check my post history, I have never had a signature before.
just set it to create an impact for this thread. LOL
matt

 

I took it apart and I'm guessing that the cause of the whole problem was too tight of endplay when it was assembled. The inner torrington bearing was completely gone (except for a few little shards that I found). The Plate has about a 1/16" groove worn into it and it's cracked in about four or five places. Also the front counterweight was hitting the front cover which was probably the horrible noise I was hearing. I have pics so when I get some time Ill put them up.

 

how is / was the oil pressure reading?
you might want to check the oil pump clearance while you are in there if it was low.
matt

 

Chewed up the front stack? ouch.

Have the oil cooler cleaned. Don't want pieces of torrington bearing coming back to haunt a rebuild........flush the lines, cooler, clean the pan to the nines.

many reasons that could've happened, but depending on the scenario when it was rebuilt (specifically, how many plates/housings were changed) I'd guess too tight of endplay also.

 

something else that would have been a good idea, would be a good idea.
a magnetic drain plug
I happen to have a bunch for sale, not the junk ones that you see for sale on ebay
the ones i have are super strong and are made of a material that doesnt lose
strength when heated and built using a real mazda part not a jobber junk replacement plug.
matt

 

The oil pressure always seemed to be pretty good, kinda hard to tell though with the factory guage. Regardless I'm planning on replacing the oil pump with a TII oil pump, the oil pressure regulator is being replaced with one from an FD, and the oil thermostat in the e shaft is being swapped with one of the aftermarket solid ones. That should give the oil pressure a kick in the pants. As for the oil cooler I'll flush it with transmission cooler cleaner and I'm building new lines with AN fittings and stainless steel lines. I'm also going to take the oil pan off and inspect and clean the oil pump pick up as well as the pan. Hopefully that will bring the engine back to life without doing a total rebuild.

 

Bryon, I found the TII oil pump, front stat gear, the washer plate for the stat gear, and the bearing races, just need to find that solid thermal pellet.

 

Awesome thanks man. What would I do without you? We should get some more beer and firecrackers and go to Windross' house so I can talk to him about those cooler lines.

 

Give me a shout if you guys need anything....1000 posts....wowho