sctRota

iTrader: (2)

So I went to visit an old friend of mine whom I purchased my first fc coupe and in his garage and covered in dust and some random boat parts was a 20b!! Sadly just the bare block but it still turns over but with very faint compression and does show to be a type C block on the side which I assume should be fine unless the studs are different from the type D and above?

So I was thinking... My friend said he wanted back his coupe and I could have the engine with all the other related stuff he has for it but I am concerned about how this would fit into an FD and how it would effect the weight ratio of the car. I know Marco has done it but lost his number I did manage to find out that people do in fact sell subframe kits for the FD for the 20b however, they all say that the LIM must be shortened by a cm or two in order to clear the hood which I do not see an issue with.

Anyways my actual ACTUAL question to everyone is how difficult is it to get one of these tuned and prepped for a tracking as if I were to go ahead with this decision, I am definitely aiming to stick to EFI so I could at least take it for small drives from work and back to work out the bugs. I do not know if I could track down a PFC for the 20b if they ever made one for it or if a haltech would be a better approach. I do not have any experience with haltechs so I would be playing on a completely new ball field in this case

I know it is a very random post and could possibly go either way however, with winter here and the fd staring me down everyday, I will either port the current engine I have now in the FD to a more aggressive streetport, run a complete new fuel system with water meth for safety and high boost applications, and upgrade the current twins to a BNR Stage 3 or bit the bullet and go 20b and stay under 400whpish till I can afford a stronger transmission as I have seen what happens to the normal FD ones.

Inputs, comments, and concerns highly appreciated. I won't make my decision so rash anyways as I am sure no one makes a decision like this in a matter of hours right? Seeing the other builds that people have done in the past or still working on to this day, I know this will not be a walk in the park but my first approach is to combat this project would be to get it started and running correctly outside the car first just like what I did for the 13BRE engine my old man and I built a few weeks back.

Double_J

iTrader: (28)

Obviously 20b has much more potential for power. Unfortunately that comes at a crazy price even if you do it yourself. Also it will take a long time to swap out the setups. Marco might have the quickest in/outs I've seen so his is not typical.

If you don't mind the cost and down time the 20b will be great. If you can't live with these two then you might be better with the current setup.

thewird

iTrader: (8)

I'll just say this, its not cheap even if you get the engine for free. That is the cheapest part of the build. When the car left for DGRR, I was 25k deep in the engine only and I had reused some of the stuff from my old build as well. And thats with me doing all the work.

The weight bias is my biggest problem I have right now with the car, the front is too heavy. Only a Haltech P2000 or a Microtech LT16C will run a 20b. Though I wouldn't recommend a Microtech for a street driven car.

On a side note, I'd probably be interested in the engine for spare parts hehe.

Yah, nobody at DGRR believed I finished the build in 6 weeks. But I knew exactly what I needed to do and REALLY REALLY wanted to make it for DGRR so I was working on it every single day from the moment I woke up to the moment I went to sleep and there were some all nighters towards the end. Not to mention the big fact, I know what I'm doing and know what needs to be done to make it reliable and ain't winging it like a lot of builds I've seen. I can confidently say my 20b build was the best setup one at the DGRR and their were 5 of them there.

thewird

sctRota

iTrader: (2)

I am very thankful for the input guys!! I am starting to lean more to just porting my FD motor instead however, I will not be driving this FD for the winter so I could take my time and slowly put the 20b swap together. The weight thing is bugging me a bit as I know that the 50/50 ratio will be in doubt disturbed to around 60-40 I assume? The thing is, the owner of that 20b wants 4000 for the block or his coupe back. I have yet to see someone offer me 4000 for any FC I have owned, so perhaps I will give it some time that way I can see what my choices are.

And just how much more reliable do you find the 20b over the 13b rew?

HiWire

I'd go for the 20B... you know you want to. You could also install it into an RX-8 or something else.

You've got enough FD bodies to have one as a 3-rotor. Get Marco to help you if you run into problems... the 20B install seems to be better documented online than it was a few years before. Pull out air conditioning, relocate battery, etc. to balance out the front/rear weight.

The FD is a well-balanced car, so I'd keep your regular FD the way it is if you're happy with it and keep an eye out for a roller or RHD junker.

thewird

iTrader: (8)

I don't find the 20b any more or less reliable then the 13b. But then again I never found the rotary unreliable to begin with, just lack of knowledge for the most part. It does demand a shitton of cooling and fuel though in comparison. The weight bias isn't really about 50/50 but more about the center of gravity. I have the scales reading 50/50 after some tweaking but it definitely does not drive like 50/50 and I've been playing with it all season.

thewird

CS13B

iTrader: (11)

Just don't turbo it and make it PP. Won't disturb your weight distributions.
You don't have the intakes anyways.

thewird

iTrader: (8)

^ That's an option I've suggested to a few people already as a reliable street setup. You could even do a semi-pp setup and buy the Pro-Jay intake setup for the 20b. Or keep it "simple" and do ITB's for n/a

thewird

sctRota

iTrader: (2)

I completely forgot about the semi-PP route! That could make things far easier for me and allow the engine to hold higher RPM's right? Bahh, I want to just go grab this block now but I am contemplating so much right now...

If I could produce around 400whp with a non-turbo setup it would be pretty sweet but seeing that the factory engine came with 320ish I know porting must be done for sure.... Ignoring the "brap brap" sound for now, I just want to make a engine that can be versatile for circuit and time attack. Also what is the Pro-Jay intake setup for the 20b? does it come with its own intake system and tb? ITB's are a nono as I do not feel like going that route. I will do some research on the Pro-Jay setup and see how that works. If the 20b is not that hard to setup this way, I might as well just use my banzai mounts for my FC and just swap the RE motor out for now.

B6T

iTrader: (2)

An old friend had one running on an Electromotive TEC3 6/12. I wouldn't be surprised if a VEMs can run it too.

CS13B

iTrader: (11)

lol Sanjay you have so much learning to do. If you don't pick up that block, I will

Redshft

iTrader: (1)

Not to be a vulture, but, if you don't go for it, I'll put my name on the interested list. I have been wanting one for a core for a long term project NA race car build.

sctRota

iTrader: (2)

Bahahaha yeah, I really have a lot of things to due now in my spare time! Guess that tii swap for the vert is completely out the window permanently now I am actually trying to contact the owner now as I want to get a bit more history on the block. He is quite "emotional" when it comes to these things and I will have to brace for a long story of how it ended in his possession.

I also remembered that I have a complete FD subframe if not, front end in storage and are thinking to just modify the subframe to fit the 20b and will possibly have to move around the steering rack. That or I send this for the FC track car in Guyana

So much thinking, I will need to really to look into learning about this sorcery known as haltech as EFI is the only way I will go with this now. Right now I think I should start drinking some strong coffee and possibly start saving a bit extra now

I will see if he would like to sell the block for cash, like I said he wants 4000 for a goddamn type C 20b which I am sure is a bit too pricey for just a block. Hopefully I can grab a bit more information on it as I do not want a engine with a damaged housing so I will check and see for missing seals or so. Until then which will be Sat, I shall continue doing some research on paths I could take with the 20b and see where I go from there.

thewird

iTrader: (8)

There are many ECU's that could potentially run it by why would anyone use an ECU that nobody else uses which means no support. Motec, Vipec, Adaptronic, Pictel are other ECU's that can run it as well. But Haltech and Microtech is really the only used ECU's. Microtech is cheap compared to all other options but its like the most basic and pathetic ECU ever for a street application. I do love using it on N/A race cars because it makes tuning super easy.

Sanjay, your not getting 400 rwhp out of an n/a 20b without ITB's and a peripheral port type setup. They come from the factory making 280 CRANK HP with turbo's slapped onto them. With aggressive QUALITY porting, high compression rotors, engine balancing, a tuned header and a good intake system, you could get it over 300 rwhp n/a. There isn't a single N/A 20b out there making over 400 rwhp without ITB's and PP.

This is why I call high horsepower N/A builds "ballin N/A setups". You have to do a lot more to make an N/A get power. It's easy to slap parts together and make a turbo make power but making an N/A scream requires more then that. It requires real knowledge and R&D. If the proper effort isn't put into it, it will just be another lazy N/A motor like Al's old race car.

If you don't want the engine, I already put my interest forward. I need spare parts for my build in case I break something next year pushing the 800 rwhp mark haha.

thewird

sctRota

iTrader: (2)

Hmmm... So perhaps an N/A setup would be better for this case then and definitely do I not want a lazy N/A But then again, I find turbo's more interesting as it is lots of different approaches My old man has great experience with N/A setups so I know that he would actually prefer the N/A direction for more than I would. I do not plan on pulling a 3 month or winter build as I get pretty busy now at the shop and school.

I know you put your interest in the engine before so if anything, you will be first to know if I lose interest in it. I sort of lost contact with the owner so I will pay him a visit Sat or Sunday. Seeing that I have a chance to do something so big, I do not mind waiting another month to decide as like everyone says, it gets into your pockets very quickly....

Once again, I do not want to lose my chance at this engine so quickly due to the luck of me running into one. There however a 20b at a jdm importer somewhere in Mississauga tho with everything but the auto transmission. It's how I got my first RE engine. If I have time this week, I will double check and see if it is still there. this was only two weeks ago, so I do not think it would have vanished so fast

23Racer

Al isn't on here very much any more to defend himself, but what do you guys mean when you say his motor was a lazy PP? That car and motor made over 280 rwhp NA, he was able to rev it to over 10,500 rpm, it was built from all "new" parts, not used stuff and was assembled and ported by a guy from Guyana who has tons of experience in building full on race PP 13b motors.

I don't know of anyone making that much power from an NA PP motor. It definitely isn't a lazy motor.

Now if you are referring to the motor in my car, you will need to take that up with Joe at RPM as he built it, but it runs very well for a 1/2 bridge that was ported more for torque, but with some higher rpm pull. It pulls well over 9500 rpm and I don't doubt is making over 200 rwhp now that I have the bugs mostly worked out of it. It has run for well over 20 hours of track time and had most of its life detonating like a pig and hasn't blown up. The compression is still good, it still pulls hard to 9,000 rpm and the oil pressure is great.

I just want to know what you guys mean by lazy motors?

Eric

CS13B

iTrader: (11)

How is this even still a choice? If you have the money to consider a 20B, owning more rotaries than most families have cars, GO WITH A 20B! N/A it for simplicity!

Redshft

iTrader: (1)

Preach on Eric!
N/A for life!

thewird

iTrader: (8)

I was speaking specifically about Al's old car. I didn't mean to walk over any toes, nor do I want to start a internet argument. I'm just gonna not be reserved and be fully straightforward. I seriously doubt that motor has ever made over 260 rwhp. Frankly, it would surprise me if it makes over 250 rwhp. I've seen more buzzing pull from half-bridge setup's. I'd pay for a dyno and transportation to see it make over 260 rwhp if this bothers anyone and feels they have to prove/defend themselves. Not that anyone has anything to prove of course, just putting it out there as you brought it up. And in case its not obvious, its just an opinion which is posted in a public forum where people have varying opinions.

thewird

Buggy

iTrader: (8)

I have to agree with both sides of the argument here. NA's are tough and durable. You can do pretty much anything you want to them and they'll still run. They are also fairly simple to build. But when it comes to making optimal power they are really tricky. Even the smallest of details can make or break how much power you make with a NA. I know my Rx-4 isn't even close to making what it could potentially make if I built an optimal exhaust system for it and if I really tuned the ignition timing and fuel. It's a trade off really. Turbo will always make more power hands down, but you have the added weight of all the turbo components, plus the extra cost.

01Racing

Oh Marco god of all rotaries, you lack of knowledge in some cases is staggering. My old PP made 279 RWHP on a Mustang dyno, do it would have been a higher number on a Dyno Jet. You continually misunderstand gearing for a "lazy Motor". The car would go with a semi proper transmission 142 MPH up the backstraight at Mosport braking early for turn 8 (if you do a basic calculation of HP using gear ration, tire diameter/weight formula you would see you need at least that much HP to pull that MPH). The motor happily revved to 11K and over and ran for over 3 seasons and is still running today. Realizing this is not a turbo car and does not make near the HP of a 13B Turbo or 20B. Also realize that my RX7, Eric and Dave D's are the only 3 in memory that did not blow engine after engine in REAL racing, and they were N/A. 3 lap time attack isn't 20 minutes or more of flat out running I learned that the hard way when I started racing with Eric 11 years ago. I'm sure you will come up with some fantastic reason of how we are full of s__t, so have fun with it.

Love Al

23Racer

Wow, you prod the bear and he comes out and bites.......

I thought it was at least 280. The car was freakin' fast and I think Al's motor was the last PP motor I saw being built with only new parts.

Eric

CS13B

iTrader: (11)

You haven't seen the one we're building 8 grand in parts alone so far.
Edit: I lied, the irons are "used" although a few km on a Mazda rebuild hardly counts. They are damn near new lol

thewird

iTrader: (8)

My offer still stands. I'll even throw in dinner. N/A motor's are easy to make live, cooling and oil pressure, that's very difficult in your eyes I guess.

thewird

01Racing

When I built my last and final rotary I decided that I would not put a used part in it. The irons were brand new 89-91 Turbo irons, brand new Racing Beat p.port housings, Brand new 1985 GSL SE eccentric shaft, Brand new 1989-91 high comp n/a rotors, Mazda Comp oil pump and the list goes on and on. The sides of the rotors were race clearenced, the eccentric was micro polished and oil galleries modified. The labor (if I had paid any) would have been around 3k to build everything, and my dealer cost on all the OEM parts was over 8K. The retail price of that engine would have been about 15K. A lot of money to get a new engine that made a reliable 300+hp at the flywheel. For 15K I can buy 720 hp in a box for my Camaro if I wanted to go big block.

The reality is when I need an engine for my Camaro, I can get one in a box that has 425HP with a one year warranty for about $4500.00, a transmission that I cant break is $2500.00 new or I can buy the parts for mine $1300.00. I can change rear gear ratio's and have a choice of about 15 different one's for $178.00