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In another thread, I said I would make an update on my master cylinder install. Here we go.
I did some research to see what the popular got to options are. I have an NA auto car, so lacking in that regard. Many will go with the Turbo master and booster assembly. Others go with the 929 combo.
I stumbled upon this thread and I give all credit to this discovery to clokker. His contribution to the forum is greatly appreciated.
I knew I needed to track down a MC assembly and I was not very keen on buying a whole new unit, in case it didn't work out. I work at a shop, so I could have ordered one and returned it, but that is a hassle and my car will be apart for some time. The important thing for me was to make sure it fit and to do it on a budget. I will report my findings on pedal feel and performance when I get back on the ground, but clokker's review will have to do.
I went to a local wrecking yard with one of my critter buddies and dropped of a bunch of scrap metal I had lying around. Can't buy a MC without money, so there we were.
While we were in line to dump our scrap, an ice cream man in a large gut truck went past the scales behind us and deep into the yard. Now, I don't know how many of you have been to a scrap yard, but it can be scary. Imagine that scene from the brave little toaster. There's dismantled cars lying about, bashed open washing machines, heaps of tangled iron and aluminum, and generally creepy people.
And this guy just drives past with his cheery music playing like some kind of psychopath!!!
My buddy and I were convinced that he was dropping off bodies for the mob or something. Turns out, he rolls up behind us and all of the scrap yard critters converge and start buying ice cream. One thing led to another and I am the new proud owner of a Bomb Pop.
Ok, with a fistful of dollars in my hand and an empty truck, it was time to find a suitable donor vehicle. The yard critter at the desk was not too friendly, but obliged us and told us where the donors laid.
I feasted my eyes upon a early 90s legacy and wrestled open the hood. There, in the corner, lay my prize. The MC I needed. I got to work with meager hand tools and started to unbolt everything. As the parts were coming off I noticed a slug trail of wrinkled paint below the master. Oh, no. This one was toast. The fluid was pitch black and the master was not what I would call, desirable.
My buddy called over from a couple rows down and I wandered over. There she was. A late 90s, probably a 99, Outback Legacy. That'll do pig. The fluid in the reservoir was a clean amber and the booster looked in excellent condition. Out she came, and $45 dollars later, it was mine. I made sure to grab the vacuum hose and cut off the level sensor wires. This is important, as the vacuum hose has a check valve inside of it.
Behold!!!!
Ok, to get this to work the booster is flipped upside down. The vacuum port interfered with the prop valve and the hose would not line up with the firewall tube. The brake lines were amazingly easy. I swapped the lines at the prop valve and bent them a tiny bit to line up. That tee fitting was a genius discovery, if I do say so myself. That came off of the rear differential of a Toyota 4Runner, mid 90s model. I just ground off the mounting tab with a grinder and voila! The U shaped line is one I made from a line section I purchased at the local AutoZone. I bought a very long section, because I was also going to make a different line, and cut the length I needed and bent to suit.
The clevis that attaches to the brake pedal has the same threads as the Subaru rod, so that was easy enough. I had to cut down the pushrod about a 1/4". Your results may vary.
I was amazed at how well it all fit. Obviously my car is in a few pieces, so I do not know how it will turn out, but once I do I will report the findings of brake feel. I trust clokker and his judgement. He swears by this combo on the FC with 4-piston front calipers.
The brake bias should stay the same, since I am utilizing the stock FC proportioning valve. The piston size is there to improve pedal feel and get that nice double diaphragm booster.
And Whizbang, isn't your car an SABCD?
I had to go through your thread. That car is awesome. I really do miss my FB.
I was amazed at how well it all fit. Obviously my car is in a few pieces, so I do not know how it will turn out, but once I do I will report the findings of brake feel. I trust clokker and his judgement. He swears by this combo on the FC with 4-piston front calipers.
The brake bias should stay the same, since I am utilizing the stock FC proportioning valve. The piston size is there to improve pedal feel and get that nice double diaphragm booster.
And Whizbang, isn't your car an SABCD?
I had to go through your thread. That car is awesome. I really do miss my FB.
It should be pretty good. Another guy, Matt Weaver, he has an account here but i forget it. Anyway, he did this swap in his subaru powered FB and loves it. Been driving around with the FC brakes front and rear and has nothing but good things to say.
Oooo. the SABC had dropped the D. the FD rear stuff didn't work as well as I had hoped....
That's a bummer. i glossed over your thread. I do like where you are taking it. Too bad the FD stuff didn't work out. You could swap in a REW and get the D back.
Thank you. My buddy insisted i go for that color. I didn't want to, but as soon as we started spraying it we both started cackling like Disney villains.
Damn, the Miata world has turned into a parts bin for the rest of us.
Not only have I raided it extensively for both my FC and the Z, but I just saw a Z build thread that uses those exact rail stiffeners...to good effect, supposedly.
I'm impressed by the undercarriage prep (far more so than the engine bay color choice but then again, I'm an old) but kinda wonder why you went so far and yet stopped short of using POR15.
I'm impressed by the undercarriage prep (far more so than the engine bay color choice but then again, I'm an old) but kinda wonder why you went so far and yet stopped short of using POR15.
Honestly, I did consider it, but the main reason I did not is because of Aaron's car. He talks about the effort he went to to go through all of it and I honestly did not want to look like I was dipped in black paint.
The other reason is, I don't have tons of money to play with. A can of paint here and there is manageable with the funds I am able to allocate to the car. i have spurts of funding, so sometimes I have a little, or a ton of money to throw at it. Just depends on the bills de jour that week.
Another simple reason was that I did not find it necessary to go through the POR-15 process for the underside of the car. I don't plan on driving in poor weather, so it should last just fine. I look at undercarriages of cars all day at work. Many just have whatever robot paint they got at the factory and are not too terribly dirty, or wet. Often times after a rainstorm, a car will come in dripping. the center of the car is generally rather dry. Only the wheel arches get soaked.
And I like your assessment of the bay color. It was painted to offend the sensibilities of others.
Edit: Last thing, if not for your work in the MC department, I would not have gone down the Subaru path. Thanks for pioneering that adventure, clokker.
I did look into the 929 stuff, but I could not bring myself to drop the coin on all of that stuff. My setup cost around $60, including the line section and fittings I purchased. I know I sound cheap, but I prefer to think of it as "frugal and budget oriented".
It really does seem like the more "seasoned" members have the 929 setup just sitting collecting dust, instead of actually using it. I wonder why?
Now, I have been reading this forum for over a decade and I used to have an account years ago, but lost it to an old email. Shame, really, but it happens. I do remember reading about the 929 swap back then as well, and again, not many people actually seemed to do it.
... the main reason I did not is because of...the effort ...
The other reason is, I don't have tons of money to play with.
Both reasons are completely valid and understandable, we decided the same for the Z.
I'm sure your approach will hold up fine.
In my experience, absent extreme winter salting, cars that are regularly driven suffer less from rust.The FC is pretty good but the Z has some ferocious water traps that don't empty till the car moves around a bit. Just let it sit and some of those areas rot from the inside out.
Have you driven with the new brakes yet?
I've never claimed a performance advantage but have become totally spoiled by the feel. Both the Z and Sigfrid's new RX8 feel like mush compared to mine, even though they both stop fine (well, to be honest, the Z brakes do kinda suck, what with the rear drums and all).
I was turned off by the cost of 929 parts. But seriously though when was the last time you saw a 929? Plus the subbie has MC in 1 1/16, 1, and 7/8. So there are options
Both reasons are completely valid and understandable, we decided the same for the Z.
I'm sure your approach will hold up fine.
In my experience, absent extreme winter salting, cars that are regularly driven suffer less from rust.The FC is pretty good but the Z has some ferocious water traps that don't empty till the car moves around a bit. Just let it sit and some of those areas rot from the inside out.
I have also found that to be the case. We don't get too much rust up here, unless it's a Nissan (seriously, it's bizarre) because they don't salt the roads. Yeah, it rains like crazy here, but it may only snow once or twice a year. My DD SRT-4 has 186K miles and is in better shape than many cars that I work on with half of that mileage.
Originally Posted by clokker
Have you driven with the new brakes yet?
I've never claimed a performance advantage but have become totally spoiled by the feel. Both the Z and Sigfrid's new RX8 feel like mush compared to mine, even though they both stop fine (well, to be honest, the Z brakes do kinda suck, what with the rear drums and all).
The car is still in mostly the same shape as the last photos I have posted, so I have not driven it yet with the new setup. I was very disappointed in the old brakes when I drove it over two years ago. It had, according to the PO, new pads and rotors. By new, he meant the cheapest ones he could get at AutoZone. I nailed the brakes as a test and didn't get the biting stop I was expecting. At the time, I remember thinking "What the hell? This has 4 piston brakes. It should stop better than this?"
I mean, the car would stop, but my Dodge stops much better, and at the time only had rubber lines. I upgraded the Dodge to stainless lines all around and honestly didn't see much of a difference. The pedal on my Dodge has always been wonderfully firm, so I may be spoiled.
I am confident that with the new MC setup, stainless hoses, good performance pads, and a refinish of the current "new" rotors, it should stop exceedingly well.
As long as it stops better than my Dodge, I should be happy. Then again, my Dodge does have some amazingly good brakes.
I was turned off by the cost of 929 parts. But seriously though when was the last time you saw a 929? Plus the subbie has MC in 1 1/16, 1, and 7/8. So there are options
I have been wrenching for over a decade in shops and I have never worked on, or seen a 929 in the wild. They are exceedingly rare.
At least Subie parts are plentiful and affordable.
Well, since today is a slow day. I might as well open it with a small update. I'm getting close to the present with my updates. I have been harboring lots of progress, so that I can update and make a somewhat productive thread.
I work on my car a a glacial pace, because I honestly enjoy just tinkering around. No deadlines or anything to hurry my pace, so it becomes enjoyable instead of a burden. It also doesn't help that I simply can't afford the quick progress that some members are fortunate to have.
I left off with the MC/Booster swap, so I should fill in as to what else got me to that point. I had removed the brake and fuel hard lines. They were coated in this thick, icky stuff. Some brake cleaner, a rag, and some elbow grease got them cleaned up nicely.
I also have had the tank removed this whole time, so I cleaned and painted the tank black. The inside of the tank looks perfect, so I was lucky I didn't have to seal it and treat it.
I can't get my phone to connect to my computer right now, but there are not many decent pictures of this process. It was just tedious cleaning up the lines and reinstalling them, then getting the freshly painted tank and straps installed. All normal stuff. Pictures to come soon.
There is not- and never was- anything special about the 929 brake system...I think people believed that because it came on a Mazda it was somehow more suitable or easily adapted.
The Japanese auto industry shops from the same limited number of suppliers for a wide range of parts...think Takata for airbags or Nissan/Sumitomo for brakes. For some models, Mazda and Lexus use the exact same column switch assembly, they are a direct plug-n-play swap.
Point being, the only likely difference between the 1" master/booster on the 929 and a similar unit from a Honda is going to be the fluid reservoir (the rez on the Subie setup sits at an angle when mounted in the FC because the firewalls sit differently) and the location of the booster vacuum bung.
I too started with the 929 search...and actually found one in the yard.
Removing it was one of the most miserable junkyard experiences ever- there is a crapton of stuff that had to be removed first.
On some Subaru models the space from the firewall to the strut tower is so short that I'd believe it if told they built the chassis around the booster.
When I pulled the Subie assembly out, it practically fell out. It was suspiciously easy, but then again, I personally think of Subies as practice cars. Almost everything on a Subaru is delightfully easy and pays well in a shop.
There is a reason guys in the auto tech industry call them "gravy' cars.
If you want to talk about cars built around boosters, I have a nice Mercedes Benz C280 to talk to you about.
When I pulled the Subie assembly out, it practically fell out. It was suspiciously easy, but then again, I personally think of Subies as practice cars. Almost everything on a Subaru is delightfully easy and pays well in a shop.
There is a reason guys in the auto tech industry call them "gravy' cars.
If you want to talk about cars built around boosters, I have a nice Mercedes Benz C280 to talk to you about.
Yes I do. I'm the Euro specialist at my shop. I started about ten years ago in the industry. Got ASE master certified while in tech school, got emissions certified, and worked my way into engine diagnostics. I didn't pick up the Euro line until a couple years ago.
Prior to that, I worked on just about anything that rolled in the door. I still do, from time to time, but I spend most of my time fighting with BMWs and Land Rovers.
After getting my feet wet in Euro cars, I have found that anything else Domestic or Asian that I touch is too easy. Components are laid out better on non-euro cars, the wiring schematics are already in English, and they are much less complex.
Don't worry though, the industry is trending toward a Euro type of build and setup with newer cars. New cars use more advanced CAN networks, different types of comm busses, and more specialized engine management strategies. When OBD2 was first released, there were only P0XXX codes and P1XXX codes that would store and all were numeric valued, such as P0171 System Lean Bank1.
Now, there are P2XXX, P3XXX codes, as well as their variants. The P class codes are powertrain only, that doesn't include C, U, B, and other manufacture codes that get stored. My job is to find out why that evil yellow light comes on, and if necessary, apply a nice piece of black tape to cover it if needed
Finally dragged my lazy butt out to the garage for some much needed therapy work. Now, I started with an auto chassis and am in the process of converting to manual. One of the things I did was replace the entire body harness with a manual harness. That job sucked. I also removed all of the wires that didn't need to be in the harness, such as the existing ECU wiring, power steering, and suspension wiring.
One big thing I learned the hard way was that the HVAC harnesses between the Auto and Manual cars is different. I installed the whole HVAC module and could not get the blower to work. Everything else operated, like the blend and recirc doors. I'll summarize the difference because I gave myself a headache staring at the two wiring diagrams for too long. I had gotten off work and was not in the mood to figure out the problem, but I couldn't sleep. The answer came to me at about 2AM.
There is a single wire that powers one of the two auto/turbo chassis relays for the blower. The NA manual cars do not have the second relay. That being the case, they don't have that one wire. I have a second harness, so I depinned the wire I needed and powered it and got the blower to work.
Then I went to bed. Then two months passed. Now here I am looking at the same diagrams trying to remember which stupid wire it was. hint: it's the wiper power wire. Long story short, if you have an NA manual chassis and your wiper fuse blows, the blower motor will probably also stop working. I can not confirm this, as I don't have an NA manual chassis, but I do have an NA manual body harness and an NA Auto dash harness. I doubt many others will have this issue, as I simply made my life more complicated due to it.
I feel like I'm rambling, but at least I'm getting some of what I have done to the car written down instead of just remembering all the details.
Ok, so I have the FSM in front of me and I can say that it was in fact a missing wire on the dash harness that goes into the body harness. Based on what I figured out two months ago, the blower motor received power through the Meter fuse instead of the Wiper fuse. I haven't the faintest idea why Mazda did it this way, but they did. Like I said, I'm probably one of the first people to encounter this issue since I swapped the body harness, but I left the dash harness and HVAC units alone. The harness I purchased came off eBay and I obviously reused my dash and HVAC module.
The long story made short is this. If you buy an auto chassis FC and want to do a harness swap, just buy the Turbo body harness. It's the same as the auto minus the auto trans wiring. They share the same HVAC units for some reason. OK, I'm going to splice that wire and be done with it. In one of my next updates I'll post the remainder of the underbody stuff and get into the semi restored interior.
In one of my next updates I'll post the remainder of the underbody stuff and get into the semi restored interior.
I LIED!!!
The weekend was somewhat eventful. I spent all morning Saturday running around doing errands and got home around noon. I didn't get out into the garage until after 2pm, and by that time I was already two beers in. A good compatriot of mine stopped by, so we ate pizza and watched Deadpool. Good stuff. While he was over, I did enlist his help in cycling the key for me while I was checking for power to the body harness PCM plug. Turns out that the Blue/Red wire is B+ and the Black/White ignition wire was open circuit. On the factory diagram, I traced the plug and found that the B/W wire goes out from the PCM to the main relay and out of the relay into the ignition switch. During the course of all of my harness trimmings, I forgot to connect the wires together to allow a good switched ignition wire to the PCM floor panel area. Oops.
I crawled up under the driver dash, removed the heat shrink I formed around all of the unused wires, and soldered the B/W wires together. Now I have IGN to the PCM panel area. I still need to tape up the wires I freed up, but I was not in the mood.
Today was a thrilling adventure of excessive freeway traffic and sun exposure. My mother works for Boeing and invited my wife and I to the Boeing Centennial celebration. She emailed me the info, with a map, so the wife and I set out north from our house to the Everett plant. 60 miles later, we roll in and there is not a damn thing going on. Turns out, my mother typed in Boeing Museum of Flight, instead of Museum of Flight into the google invite.
The proper location was 30 miles south of where I wanted to be, so that was fun. I did end up having fun at the event, once we got there, and watched a really cool video presentation of the History of Boeing. I also got many pictures taken of some vintage aircraft.
There is not much more in this world that I want more than a pilot's license. I can not afford such adventures, but one can dream.
I have visited the Museum plenty of times in my youth, but I still get goosebumps looking at the SR-71 Blackbird in person. For years, I have dreamt of flying that plane at maximum speed above the earth.
This is one of my favorite stories about the SR-71. I can only imagine how cool it must have been to see it in flight, in person.
After all of that fun, I got home and went out to the garage and finished cutting out the PCM wires I didn't need and taped them back. I also cut out the auto belt wires and taped them back. I'm converting to S4 belts. They are safer and weigh less. If the S5 belts were safer, I can guarantee that new cars would still equip them, but they do not, so they are not as safe.
I also removed the mounting plate for the PCM panel and the AT computer. I just Amazon ordered a 6 gang fuse block with a cover. I think that the block is about the right size to fit in that pocket on the passenger side, behind the kick panel.
07-11-16, 09:31 PM
