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After months of hard work and persistence...The car fired up as of January 1st, 2020 at around 1:40AM. Timing sync was spot on using Haltechs numbers and it took not but a second of cranking to get the car started even with all the stuff that has changed. The DBW implementation was simple and the calibration was super easy. I have a few kinks to work out (Wiring and an oil fitting and a possible coolant leak) and a ton of the car to put back together but overall, I'm fairly excited having this thing start going in to the New Year!
Congrats man! That's definitely alot work you knocked out there and it sounds like you'll be set and sorted for the fun stuff to begin shortly! You're going to love tuning on the haltech compared to your old ECU, its such a better built system from top to bottom. Hit me up anytime if you have any questions about it or want any additional eyes on the data!
Put about 100 miles on her over the period of today and yesterday. Rode passenger while my buddy drove the car around and did some fuel map tuning. I ended up having to plumb my wastegates in because if you don't, they don't open lol. Car hits rock solid 6psi on wastegate pressure and we got the fueling dialed in to about 6k rpms. Only took roughly 4 pulls to get it dialed in from 0-6psi. Upon looking at the logs, my fuel pressure was dropping slightly towards 6k so we stopped the tuning for the day. The car is running a Walbro 255 and I know it can handle more, but the fuel pressure drops instantly when I prime the system on start up so that tells me there's an issue. I already knew I would need a Walbro 450 so I ripped that band aid and ordered one so I can replace the pump while also checking inside the tank. I'm almost 100 percent certain the O ring in the tank is pinched as there are no visible engine bay leaks and the FPR holds the exact pressure the system needs when it needs it. This is why it's so important to have a fuel pressure sensor lol.
In case anyone wonders how the driveability of the LS throttle body is, it's fantastic and even easier to tune than a cable and IACV system and I would recommend it to everyone. The driveability is so much better than it used to be.
The car is running well with lower EGTs than normal, faster start ups, and even more vacuum over the old set up. The car feels happy and really wants to go.
Some things I may or may not address:
-I built a tranny brace and it transfers a ton of vibrations and drivetrain noises (Literally sounds like a straight cut gearbox from the inside), but the shifter is rock solid which is actually really nice. Might throw a rubber block under there and redesign it if women complain.
-Pole Position doesn't have enough tilt back angle with the new 3 inch butt pad so the seat is loads comfier, but the bottom is flat so I will probably re-design the front part or even the entire bracket.
-My pedal is too far up and too close to the brake pedal so sporty driving isn't easy and will be addressed
-Fuel level gauge is reading zero and I believe it has a loose wire from when I was messing with it behind the gauge hood. (Oh joy, I get to pull that mess apart again...)
For anyone looking for a good turbo, I believe the 8374 is the go to turbo for a street car. It behaves like the twins did and has similar torque feel around cruising and it's actually difficult to keep it below 0psi for cruising. I'm able to start spooling from 2k-3k depending on the gearing. In second, we hit just over 14psi around 3.8k and hit ignition cut as it's set to 12psi. At this current state, my theory of wanting bigger porting doesn't feel necessary, but only the dyno and road feel towards the top end will tell me if it wants it or not. I'm ecstatic to be driving this car again after 7 months of being tore down and am excited for what this car will do under a proper tune!
Hey Newt! Sounds like a solid successful first day out tuning.
In regards to the staging question that you text me, yes the haltech staging is different from how the adaptronic handled it. If I remember correctly, the adaptronic used "peak and hold" staging, where the primary injectors are run to ~93% duty cycle then the secondaries are brought online and increase in duty with the primaries holding at the peak 93% duty mark.
The haltech utilizes what is known as "common mode" staging, or at least that is how it was referred to back on the old haltech PS units where you could select which type of injector staging pattern you wanted. In common mode staging, the primaries run up to the "maximum stage duty cycle" in the main fuel settings page, and then drop to match the duty of the secondaries as they are coming online. The min staging duty setting is the minimum duty that the secondaries will drive to when staged, anything over 10-15% should be enough to cover the non-linear pulsewidth range of most all quality injectors.
I've found that it is rather common that you see a lean blip right after staging when using the base haltech setting from the FD basemap that you will see the a quick lean blip right after the staging convergence. To remedy this, I typically lower the max staging duty that the primaries run to 50-60% so the transition isn't so drastic and then add additional stage on enrichment and duration to cover the lean patch. Each injector/engine port combo will likely be a little different, but if you experience the blip it is usually pretty each to tune out by playing with those settings to figure out what suits your car setup best.
Work on the car has slowed down a little bit as I bought a 2 door Impreza and have slowly been getting sicker as the days go by. (Gotta love a bad set of tonsils)
I ordered IRPs Walbro 450 billet fuel pump kit to replace my old 255. It turns out that there was a fracture in one of the plastic pieces at the end of the fuel pump and I'm guessing it's possible fuel was leaking back in the tank or some oddity like that causing fuel pressure not to hold and also a lack of fuel pressure in the top end.
As far as the IRP kit goes, I would definitely recommend it. The only thing I didn't use out of the kit was the relay and wiring set up as I already had my own fuel pump relay in place.
The kit gets rid of the O-Ring sealing system in favor of a hose set up that with some lubrication, goes on the fuel pump and the fuel hanger very nicely. It also eliminates the bottom metal piece as the bracket does all of the weight carrying. The kit also comes with new pins for inside of the tank so you don't have any need for heat shrinking a spliced piece so it's just the simple weatherpack connectors and the sumitomo piece on the OEM hanger. Installation was easy and straight forward and I'm hoping this pump will be the last one I need lol. It's also quieter than my 255 so that's a bonus!
I went for a test drive and went WOT without any fueling issues to where it's tuned so now I just need a good day of weather along with better health and hopefully we can get her boosting around 10-12psi! I believe the tires will be my next limiting factor, but only time will tell!
So I went out for some pulls last night with a set of fresh plugs. I just wanted to data log and double check fuel pressure and AFR before moving on with tuning.
Here are two things I noticed.
The first thing is that it's evident that the stock ports are going to be limiting the top end and I don't think I'll be revving it out to 8k as just running on wastegate pressures dies off at about 6.5k (Kinda like the stock twins. Whoda thunk?!) It could be possible that the turbo just isn't happy in the 4psi range, but I would bank moreso on the ports.
The second thing is that fuel pressure slowly drops to 30psi by the time I'm at the end of the pull. AFRs are still good, but obviously it should be above my base of 43psi by some change. I still have one solution up my sleeve and that's removing the OEM fuel filter. I am running a double filter set up and I believe that's causing a serious restriction.
The secondaries work, but the transition needs some work, but that shouldn't be too hard to sort out after a few pulls.
I am really glad this stuff is happening at lower boost levels as it would be way worse if the car were actually making power.
Got a wild hair in and decided to see if I could calibrate my speed sensor and gearing. With 6 clicks of the mouse, it's done. Double checked some high vacuum areas for fueling and reduced a little timing around 2k because the car was very lightly bucking at very certain conditions. Times like this, I wish I was saving for a dynapack instead of a Porsche lol. At least all of this monkey business will minimize dyno time.
I will probably step down to a 500cc nozzle on my WMI set up since I'm using windshield washer fluid and that's mostly water and 1000cc might be too much and unnecessary. Wouldn't want to fry my coils trying to light off a fire hose worth of water lol.
Also forgot to mention that I fixed my fuel level gauge as it just needed a ground on a wire on the X-05 connector. I guess the OEM gauges ground to the engine for whatever reason.
Still running in to fuel pressure issues. I bypassed the OEM filter so I'm down to one Fuelab 6 micron filter that's capable of 200GPH which is plenty of flow. The fuel pump is brand new. The FPR is working properly as well as it can. We increased base pressure up to 60psi, and there is still no change. It creeps up a little and then progressively goes down as the pull goes on.
SO
Here is my next step.
Bigger fuel lines. It seems as though the stock hard lines are not capable enough of flow (or at least the ones I've been gifted with). So I am going to make the leap up to -6 or 3/8 size lines and go from there as it doesn't cost too much. If that doesn't fix it, then it's a bigger outlet on the fuel pump hanger and if that doesn't fix it, it's off a cliff with this car lololol jk.
Stock Hardlines are good for at least 600whp. I doubt that is your issue. They are 5/16. Going to -6 AN will not fix the issue.
I disagree here in a way, I don' think the line size is his issue given the power levels hes at now but I don't think 5/16" lines will support 600hp on a rotary. Someone may have gotten to 600hp on them at some point, but I can only imagine they were making up for the flow restriction with fluffed fuel in the map to band-aid the shortage.
Either way, at those power levels, that pump shouldn't be dropping off like Newt described unless by chance he ended up with one of the shitty fakes that don't hold up under load.
The only other thing I'd check first would be the voltage at the pump under load. If the voltage is dropping and the pump isn't getting full power it could fall of with RPM as described. Has it been rewired to run direct power off the battery via a relay?
The pump is re-wired with 10 gauge inside the tank and outside the tank directly to the battery. Voltage does get on the lower side at around 13.4-13.5v according to the Haltech, but I have yet to monitor at the pump with my Fluke. I've been debating getting the alternator upgraded and putting in a new battery since my Odyssey PC925 is now 5 years old. As far as the hardline stuff goes, stock LS cars run 3/8ths lines as do most modern cars and they aren't too much more for power levels from the factory.
There are a number of methods of bypassing the bulkhead connector. Some use terminals - radium sells a nice kit to DIY.
You could also just get a new hanger.
Personally I went straight thru. Used an ATL two-wire pass thru fitting. Tinned the wire ends and used Molex heat shrink nylon butt splices to eliminate fuel wicking. https://photos.app.goo.gl/fQXCCeBFtXwDWX2D8
Okay guys. I'm losing my mind trying to figure this out. I have upgraded to 3/8 fuel line from the pump, all the way to the regulator. I have swapped regulators and have also bypassed the fuel filter and have tried running a solid 55psi pressure along with higher evap duty cycles and even taking the fuel cap off just in case tank pressure was causing an issue. Absolutely none of this has changed the trend. So the entire fuel system is new and has been gone through. The only two things that I could think of is either an electrical issue or the fuel pump being too close to the bottom of the tank. Is it possible that the battery being old or the higher amperage demand from the coils, DBW system, and bigger fuel pump could being causing issues?
Figured out my issue after putting in a Holley hydramat. My signal wire came out by hand out of my connector when I was fiddling around with it. I know for a fact those pins aren't supposed to come out without a tool and unlocking the connector lol. So I stuck a gauge on my regulator instead and decided to go start tuning the car some more. I have the fueling up to 10psi now which feels good, but definitely isn't enough to satisfy the itch lol. The transition is too rich right now so that needs to be adjusted through duration or enrichment percentage and it seems that duration has a big effect and the enrichment requires a lot of change for there to be a noticeable difference. The boost duty cycle appears to need about 10% more after 5500rpms and idk if that's a stock port or turbo efficiency thing as the VE really goes down around 7k which is to be expected. I threw a turbo blanket on as well and that did an amazing thing for keeping temps down as to be expected.
As far as the fuel pressure sensor goes, I'm thinking of potting the sensor so I can run a Deutsch connector since the ones they come with give me a lot of trouble. The car is holding up really well to the multiple pulls which is really nice and I am just on pump gas for now. I am going to order a 500cc jet for the water meth system as 1000cc of windshield washer fluid is going to be too much. The car really isn't that far off from heading to a dyno which is pretty exciting! I'm probably gonna stop messing with street tuning around 12psi and then hopefully schedule an appointment so I can finally be done messing with the car.
They do have e85 at one station about 15 miles away from my house, but outside of that, Oregon is super limited on e85 pumps as far as I'm aware and with how much the car sits, idk if running higher ethanol content would be wisest in my application. I would definitely like to dabble with it when I build the K20A in my Integra though!
I saw a thread about a guy who had the same problem I had with his fuel pressure and he went through all of the same procedures and it turned out his Radium FPD was somehow causing pressure drop. So I ordered a -8 plug for the FPD and when I fix my wiring connector, I'm gonna see if it makes a difference just out of curiosity and piece of mind. Cautious steps bring reliable results and rushing never does any good!
The car is currently at 10psi right now and it feels really good! Before I go any further, I'm gonna put in my 500cc jet for the water meth system and then start tuning around that. The Greddy V mount paired with a PTP turbo blanket has done godly work for my air temps! I'm really glad I spent the money on good cooling systems even if it is just a street car.
They do have e85 at one station about 15 miles away from my house, but outside of that, Oregon is super limited on e85 pumps as far as I'm aware and with how much the car sits, idk if running higher ethanol content would be wisest in my application. I would definitely like to dabble with it when I build the K20A in my Integra though!
I saw a thread about a guy who had the same problem I had with his fuel pressure and he went through all of the same procedures and it turned out his Radium FPD was somehow causing pressure drop. So I ordered a -8 plug for the FPD and when I fix my wiring connector, I'm gonna see if it makes a difference just out of curiosity and piece of mind. Cautious steps bring reliable results and rushing never does any good!
The car is currently at 10psi right now and it feels really good! Before I go any further, I'm gonna put in my 500cc jet for the water meth system and then start tuning around that. The Greddy V mount paired with a PTP turbo blanket has done godly work for my air temps! I'm really glad I spent the money on good cooling systems even if it is just a street car.
If its that rare and you don't drive it much it makes sense to stay with the water meth. That's interesting on the FPD, can you send me the link to that thread? I never bought one of those as I had never seen a need for it based off of the data from my logs but have always had it in the back of my mind since my application would most definitely cause for it will all the large injectors.
The Radium FPD delete I did increased fuel pressure a bit. It use to drop down in the 30s by the end of the pull and now it's down to 43psi by the end of a pull, but that still isn't good in my book.
I have replaced every little bit and piece of my fuel system and am still having problems.
Here is a complete outline of my entire fuel system in hopes that someone will be able to point out any issues. Right now we are at 11psi of boost on a stock port EFR 8374 set up for reference.
1x Walbro 450lph (The high pressure 274 model)
Holley Hydramat
-6an hard and soft lines for feed and stock fuel line size for the return. (An elbow is welded to the top of my fuel hanger so it's true -6 all the way through)
Two clamps that hold the soft line to the top of the tank to the hardline are worm clamps but they do not leak under pressure.
Battery power to the top of the fuel head through a relay and runs 13.5-13.7v
10 gauge wire for the fuel pump inside and outside of the tank
Fuel lab fuel filter
OEM fuel filter delete
Radium primary fuel rail with the FPD blocked off
Full Function engineering secondary fuel rail
Aeromotive FPR vacuum referenced at the very bottom of the lower intake manifold with base pressure set at 43psi
Haltech 0-150psi pressure sensor (Honeywell GT150) potted and converted to Deutsch connector
ID1050x primary injectors x2
ID2200 Secondary injectors x2
Pump gas premixed with Redline pre mix
The Haltech VE map changing is spot on so there appears to be enough fuel even though it plummets down at the end of the run.
End of pull injector duty cycle is 45% on each injector
Fuel pressure will spike up to 50psi (11psi of boost) and linearly drop to 43psi (10psi of boost) at the end of the pull.
I'm at a loss as this should be plenty of fuel for the system and I've tore down the car at least ten times since the new year started trying to figure out these issues before getting some dyno time. I know we've covered so much ground, but maybe there is something I'm missing, but I just have no idea and am clueless.
Another weird thing is that when I had my fuel pressure sensor disconnected last tuning session, it started reading around 6psi or so even though it wasn't hooked up which is a little concerning.
Troubleshoot in the following order. Even if pieces are new, there can sometimes be quality issues. Best to rule out the easy ones first.
1. Remove the hydromat and see what happens.
2. Replace fuel filter.
3. Send your fuel injectors to be cleaned and flow tested to rule out an injector issue. It's not expensive.
1. I have run two different pumps and the sock that comes with the pump and nothing has changed between the two
2. I have completely bypassed the fuel filter and nothing changed
3. Do you think that one of the injectors are sticking even though the AFR trend is spot on?
I wouldn't completely rule out a bum pressure sensor. I probably should see if I can run a long length of hose and a gauge to the front windshield and watch it from there...
I appreciate the quick responses and I slept on it and have another thought about this.
My fuel system is still being ran in series. I know Mazda did their homework, but the old set up only had half the injector sizing that I'm currently at. I've been studying our chemical sprayer systems and it's been obvious that at lower pressures, the furthest spray nozzles from the pump always shut off first or have lower flow rates than the closer nozzles and this really got me thinking about this fuel system. Is it possible that by the time the fuel gets to the regulator that the garden hose sized injectors are actually causing pressure drops because there's one supply line filling two rails versus two supply lines feeding each individual rail?
I'm gonna try to rig up a gauge first because that's the cheaper option, but if that doesn't work, I'm probably going to try to run a parallel set up just because it's only a few fittings and some hose.
1. I have run two different pumps and the sock that comes with the pump and nothing has changed between the two
2. I have completely bypassed the fuel filter and nothing changed
3. Do you think that one of the injectors are sticking even though the AFR trend is spot on?
I wouldn't completely rule out a bum pressure sensor. I probably should see if I can run a long length of hose and a gauge to the front windshield and watch it from there...
I appreciate the quick responses and I slept on it and have another thought about this.
My fuel system is still being ran in series. I know Mazda did their homework, but the old set up only had half the injector sizing that I'm currently at. I've been studying our chemical sprayer systems and it's been obvious that at lower pressures, the furthest spray nozzles from the pump always shut off first or have lower flow rates than the closer nozzles and this really got me thinking about this fuel system. Is it possible that by the time the fuel gets to the regulator that the garden hose sized injectors are actually causing pressure drops because there's one supply line filling two rails versus two supply lines feeding each individual rail?
I'm gonna try to rig up a gauge first because that's the cheaper option, but if that doesn't work, I'm probably going to try to run a parallel set up just because it's only a few fittings and some hose.
When you say the sensor was giving a reading at 6 psi when it was not hooked up, do you mean it was plugged into the ECU but not in the fuel system or it was not plugged into the harness at all and you were getting a reading on the ecu on that channel? I'd want to verify that sensor is working without issue before changing anything else. I don't think the move to parallel is a bad thing, but also never had an issue running in series on 6an lines at 450+ which you aren't seeing at 11 psi.
The connector was unplugged and the sensor wasn't on the car when it had a phantom reading. So the sensor wasn't wired in, but the channel was reading something. I ordered a set up to get proper gauge readings just to rule out a bad sensor, but it's very possible pressure is fine and I am possibly fighting a voltage drop issue.
01-02-20, 09:20 PM
Awesome job!
