GtoRx7.

iTrader: (12)

Love it. Making stickers now for our rear bumpers. Well not for Lenny though. Bam! Double burn Lenny!

Mister RX7

This thread is Very beautifull

Rxmfn7

iTrader: (4)

For my sake, I hope you have some time-lapse editing abilities. You've been building that thing for the past year and a half

Ok, Im done for fear of no 4-rotor rides for me if I continue In all seriousness, very cool and I would be super-proud of building something like this. I like your work because even though it may not "look"as pretty as some others, its always very mechanically sound and alot of effort goes into making things fit and work as they should.

GtoRx7.

iTrader: (12)

I might just cry myself to sleep tonight :-( But thanks Lenny, you will get a ride. And once you drive your Dogbox for a bit I'll let you drive the 4 rotor :-) One of the few and proud qualified to do it. Now I need a drink to swallow the hurt I've taken today! Ha!

djseven

iTrader: (56)

I'm glad you got your car in Logan's hands as I think it is finally moving in the right direction. Either way I still think an NA 3 rotor is a terrible decision. Even Logan's car with the 3 rotor which was probably way more car then yours still struggled to compare to the powerband of a proper setup sequential 2rotot or small single 2 rotor. This 4 rotor setup is legit. However, you NA 3 rotor guys that didn't build your car for the track are kidding yourself if you think it is comparable to a decent 2 rotor turbo setup.

This is not a conversation for this thread though. Logan impresses once again and it will be sick to see a 600+hp NA rotary FD. If Gordon hadn't said he was second guessing himself again I wouldn't have commented. This is a sick build and I wish to take nothing away from it. Hopefully those reading will fork out the money to Defined for a 4 rotor build if they wish to stay NA.

GtoRx7.

iTrader: (12)

When I mentioned getting a drink later, I think DJ beat me to it and drank the whole bottle! Holy crap.... I'm still picking my jaw up off the ground. Part of me is slightly depressed because I've always enjoyed things you said DJseven. Our shop is one that builds rotaries, not just n/a rotaries but turbo as well. I steer each person in the direction based off needs/wants/income. There is no "n/a only flag" over our shop. But to mention my 3-rotor "struggling" to compete with a 2-rotor twin turbo?? Or SMALL single?? Really?? Too bad it had quite a few straight line only races with 450-530rwhp Rx7's and came out on top. This was with only 400rwhp, not the eventual 482rwhp it later developed. I'm not bragging, I could care less about freeway racing. Everything has its place and I don't consider one engine or the other superior but to lash out and say n/a 3-rotors are worthless is a very short sighted statement. Luckily for everyone that famous 3-rotor is still around and being put into Matts street FD Rx7. So if anyone wants to have fun with a "struggling" 20b engine in any type of race, we have nothing to lose and will a good time doing it. Both me and co-owner Matt have competition in our blood and do not believe in owning show cars.

I was MORE than happy with a tiny dick 480rwhp 3-rotor Rx7. I, like a few people on the board, do not need a continual increase of horsepower to make myself satisfied because there is a set amount that works. I leave dick swinging to the other guys. To each his own. But owning a shop, sometimes you have to flex shop muscle and hence a 4-rotor being born.

djseven

iTrader: (56)

It wasn't directed at you or your shop Logan, never my intention and I want to make that clear. This is not me back tracking simply having respect for what you guys are capable of. However, Gordon is on here claiming 525hp. I've seen your dyno graph which far surpasses any other NA 3 rotor(non pp). The torque that Gordon claims is his reason for this swap simply isn't there. Never has been and never will be. I said it was useless for someone to go NA 3 rotor outside a track car and I stand by that statement all day everyday. Please compare Gordon's 2900lb FD against any FD running a simple 58-62mm turbo setup and it won't be pretty. The power curve will barely rival that of stock twins on 14lbs, let alone BNRs. I will never understand someone going NA 3 rotor for a street car. Is my opinion the only opinion? No, but I don't try to rationalize my decisions with made up numbers and hopes of what could be. I've said enough and I really don't want this in your thread. I've just seen certain members of this forum make bad decision time and time again over the years then try to justify it by spewing garbage then act shocked when things don't work out or no one is impressed besides clueless members. The best Gordon ever did was get the car to you, hopefully it's all he imagined.

djseven

iTrader: (56)

F it, lets settle all this at the next modified event. I'll gladly hand Fritz the keys to my sequential FD with all emissions equipment. Hopefully Gordon will do the same.

diabolical1

iTrader: (3)

wow, Logan, drama here and drama on the other side, too? your build is sparking all kinds of strange reactions. anyway, i'll just keep it simple over here. you're awesome.

Grant M

I would gladly swap my 2rotor BP SINGLE TURBO, for a three rotor NA setup. Gordon has said many times that he chose his setup for a better balanced street car rather than a turbo monster.

Running a turbo is essentially a variable compression ratio motor so torque will always be higher etc
J
Lets face it too, ported turbo 2 rotors sound the best on tick over but at full chat can be very annoying. Whereas a 3 rotor NA is badass sounding everywhere

If I get the opportunity to swap to a 3 rotor NA PP I will do it.

Grant M

Ha, I could think of a few others

So Loagan are you going to rev the car to 12,000 rpm if it makes the power up there? As we all know Mazda took their engine after the winning race and revved it out to 10,000 and made 900HP!!

t-von

iTrader: (8)

To each his own. Personally I can't stand the laggy power delivery of a high powered single turbo on a street car. They suck for stop and go traffic and their absolutely dangerous when all that power kicks in all at once. The available bottom end torque of a na 3 rotor means you dont have to drive the **** out of if to get the most out of it on the street.



So it's not a mistake for someone to take a little tiny 13b, double it's factory rated hp, and expect to get 50+thousand miles out of it without any rebuilds? Na rotarys will aways be more long term reliable than any turbo version.

djseven

iTrader: (56)

Really? You didn't claim ridiculous numbers in this very thread? I'm on my phone and will respond Monday if you still want to discuss this. I've insulted no one by saying an NA 3 rotor is a whole lot of money for marginal performance. It has its place, if people want to drop $30k plus to be unique and make 350rwhp great for them. Just don't be shocked when the majority shake their head and walk the other way.

djseven

iTrader: (56)

You guys feel so personally attacked by my comments you can't even read them clearly and look at it with an open mind. A small singled FD will have a better power and torque curve than your NA 3 rotor. I don't know if you are comparing old scholl T78 builds to your 3 rotors or what?

And where is the extra reliability from these 3 rotor setups, if I judged by this forum it appears 3 rotors last 1/2 as long as 2 rotors. Even with the 3 rotor build threads taking years to complete the owners seem to go through more engines. Heating and oiling issues are magnified in a 3 rotor.

Once again, this is no insult to Logan/Defined and can all gladly be removed. What Logan has done is incredible and fits what he is trying to accomplish on track. This was towards Gordon but when I saw his comments in this thread I responded here. This should make the Modified event that much more anticipated and fun for those involved.

djseven

iTrader: (56)

iPhone strikes again.

t-von

iTrader: (8)

In your above reply to Gordon, you said nothing previous about cost. You should to be more specific when you start ranting about how useless na swaps are (which made it personal to others). Those who pay to have the swap or do it themselves know what their getting into. You would be surprised at what cost I have in my own conversion as mine is 100% DIY. Lastly I'm far from having a closed mind. It's very easy and cheap to achieve the power results of a single conversion. If that's what I wanted, then that's that I would have done. In the end, I simply would have had just another singled powered fd. Just because YOU cant justify the cost, doesn't mean others can't. Lastly, there's nothing revolutionary about adding boost to make more power. That's easy. If I wanted easy then I would have NEVER learned the things I have over the years. Getting the most out an NA application takes a complete understanding of engine breathing, intake, and exhaust systems as a whole. Figuring out that balance takes your rotary knowledge to a whole different level. Sadly, that's a level most turbo guys never give themselves a chance to experience.

FDWarrior

iTrader: (6)

Guys please keep the junk out of our thread, thanks. I understand there was no insult made directly to us but all of the n/a 3 rotor bashing is ridiculous. Last time I checked our n/a 3 rotor has never had a reliability issue, it's the same engine as back in 2004 when it was originally built. The only thing it ever came apart for was to have more custom things done to it, to make more power.

Im just going to put this here since people seem to forget.

https://www.rx7club.com/build-thread...istory-937570/

We don't have any issues building turbo cars either, and this car got spanked by the "no power" n/a 3 rotor. Power to weight, and lag time is a hard thing to overcome when the n/a engine is almost making the same power.

https://www.rx7club.com/single-turbo...-rotor-929379/

Like Logan stated earlier his n/a 3 rotor had no problem in a straight line with a couple 2 rotor turbo cars supposedly at 450-500 wheel range at deals gap, and many other cars before and after that time.

I don't understand why our advertising efforts are always stomped on with stupid quarreling in our threads? If the fact that we make huge n/a power is still foggy Im not sure what more we can do.

Any reliability comment is absolutely hilarious. Like I said same engine since 2004, and has had thousands of miles put on it at various road courses (mostly Mid-Ohio). This engine has never even broken a sweat, let alone any problems internally. I don't care about any one else's 3 rotor success, they are not the one's building our engines or developing our products.

Like Logan said earlier we are not shy to line up next to someone, never have been never will be. All of our car's always run, and Im surprised to hear any one would question that.

Thanks

FDWarrior

iTrader: (6)

I do agree with you in many aspects. Some n/a 3 rotors are junk. The price some spend to make less than 300 wheel is ridiculous. Our n/a 2 rotor makes comparable power to many n/a 3 rotor engines. The 2 rotor turbo is a good engine, along with the n/a 3 rotor. Peoples needs are different so one specific engine will not fit every one.

The biggest problems with the n/a 3 rotor is the shop/ person building most of the time.

djseven

iTrader: (56)

Never once my intention to knock you guys or what you do. I've had nothing but praise for Defined for a long time. Though I don't agree with NA 3 rotors in a street car( I think I've made that clear), I believe you guys are one of a handful of shops in the country that not only deliver quality setups but conduct your self well and have a good forum presence willing to share info.

Gordon has made several comments over the years that really rub me the wrong way along with some of his actions. Your thread was not the place to address it I just couldn't overlook his 175hp per rotor comment.

I'll make a new thread next week comparing 2rotor turbo setups vs NA 3 rotor and I am done with messing up your thread.

Once again the work Defined is turning out is top notch. Add to that they are willing to share a lot of information and that makes them a great asset to the community. Carry on with this great build and I truly wish you nothing but the best.

FDWarrior

iTrader: (6)

Understandable, not every set-up is right for every car or person. Also like Logan said earlier we are not an n/a only shop. Heck we will build a nasty 2 rotor turbo just the same as an n/a 3 rotor, or 4 rotor. I will never bash a turbo 2 rotor, I loved my 35r set-up but my needs changed engine wise. The rx7 is a great car in the fact it has such a good engine from the factory, unlike the s-chassis.

David Hayes

iTrader: (6)

Hey David, I think Gordon made a typo with the 175 HP per rotor thing. I follow his thread and he's consistently (at least for the last 5 years or so) said he wants to make around 375 WHP out of his NA setup so that would equate to 125 HP per rotor. Just trying to clarify this for everyone.

The whole HP thing is quite interesting. When I first started my 3 rotor build, only one guy had eclipsed the 600 WHP mark and that was used as the max level anyone would want and out of a 2 rotor, the goal was 400 WHP. Now guys routinely break 500 on a 2 rotor and my 675 WHP setup is viewed as low to middle of the road for a 3 rotor. Go figure

For me, the thing to think about is how much is too much usable HP? I don't drive my car at 675 but keep it a 12 PSI and 575 as it's a handful even at the lower level. And track guys are always around 300-350 as it's the balance of the FD and deliverable power that makes the difference for them. So, I'd think the NA 3 rotor guys are looking for a broad power band and a great handling car. To each his own.

t-von

iTrader: (8)

Exactly David. Hp wise, Fritz car is a perfect example of how fast a 300whp fd is around the track. Personally I get sick and tired of getting asked how much power my I'm gonna put down when I tell people I have a 20b. Hp is all people care about. I want reliable hp. I want something that will last 100k without any fuse.

Now I can't imagine Logans 4rotor around VIR at 600+ whp. I could barely handle Fritz track preped fd at only 300whp. It sucks that I'm gonna miss my chance to ride in all these NA beast in the fall VIR event due to Sevenstock. Hell, I still wanna another ride your black beauty when the rebuild is complete. That way I can feel that boosted 20b rush again.

GtoRx7.

iTrader: (12)

20b turbo's are in a league of their own. After building and driving quite a few at 600-750rwhp that rush when the turbo hits always leaves you feeling like a time warp just occurred. And afterward I always feel a tad irresponsible because even as a moderate driver, you wonder if everything was truly under control lol. The average 20b turbo car weighs between 2900-3100 depending on transmission choices and will keep up with any "new" heavy cars of today with 850+rwhp @ 3400lbs.

Then you have my crazy *** putting a 4-rotor into a 2370lbs chassis. If it breaches 600+rwhp it would take a 3400lb car making near 1000rwhp to go head to head.
Gotta love our lightweight Rx7's

Rxmfn7

iTrader: (4)

You have no idea how many friends I have with Fbodies or Mustangs talking **** because my car will be "so slow" with only ~375RWHP. No one seems to understand that power in a ~2600lb FD with 4:30gears and traction is completely different from it in a 3600lb camaro or mustang. Im not into street racing at all, and am usually completely oblivious to everyone elses' dick swinging contests.. but there's a few cars around here I really want to lay some smack down on

Mdessouki

iTrader: (7)

A discussion on torque curves, reliability, and "dick swinging" and JimLab is no where to be found. Kinda creepy if you ask me...

Sorry to go off topic. That will put a smile on a few of the old timers faces. The build looks great.