LT1RX7

This post is for information purposes only to see the type of people you are dealing with on this forum.

I PM'd Kevin a few days ago about a car I bought from him last year.

Last June/July time Kevin posted an auto FD with new paint and a fresh engine for sale for 11k. It looked great in pictures and when I talked to Kevin he said he had pulled the motor, rebuilt it and the turbos and painted the engine bay and had the body painted. He said the body paint wasnt perfect but it was decent. I paid him $1000 and agreed to meet him about 9 hours from my house (about 4 hours from his). I trusted him as a "shop" owner and a vendor on here to have what he promised.

I wont get into the tires that were good with "85% tread remaining" that were dry rotted but that should have tipped me off. I test drove the car and it drove straight and made good power. The car was decent so we settled up and I took it home. Few days later I take it get it inspected and the inspector says two things:

1. Did you buy this car from a guy down near Blacksburg Va named Kevin (odd question) because "the halfassed wiring looks the same as another customer of mine cars that he did work on"

2. You know this car has been in a front end collision and was shittly repaired right?

Both shocks to me so I called Kevin and he says the "repair" was ust Kevin reseamsealing the shock towers and the wiring was fine the guy was just saying bad things because of the other customer and some radiator thing. I saw the seam sealer and really didnt pursue it any further because the car drove straight and ran fine.

Fast forward 1 year and I am pulling the motor. When I did I find the front body harness is cut clean through. I mean it looks like someone used bolt cutters and then spliced it back together. It was a giant ball of wires that were hidden by the motor and all the parts. Now fast forward to last week. I am finally going through the engine bay to prep it for my swap. To do that I pulled the fender liners, suspension, wiring, brake lines etc to make the engine bay clean to strip his junk engine bay paint (that looks to be a latex) to respray.

The following pictures show what I found. The "repair" is infront of the shock tower.

Now I pm Kevin and ask him to admit he had knowledge of this stuff. That is it. So I will post it here for all future buyers or customers of Kevin/Rotary Resurrection and they can make their own minds up wether he is honest or out to hide something to make an extra buck.

LT1RX7

and the drivers side

LT1RX7

last one you make the call.

RRTEC

iTrader: (13)

I feel for you.. No-one likes buying a reapaired wreck. But you by your own admission state that you saw the seam sealer on the towers and still purchased the car...

You bought a used car, if you feel Kevin sold the car under false pretences then I would have approched him personally before posting in the bad guy section...

Did you pull a carfax on it? FYI kevin is not a bodyshop, he rebuilds engines, flips cars, ect.. He doesn't do his own paint or bodywork, he pays a shop to.

He can defend himself, Sucks for both of you.. Sorry about that..

I assume you are pulling the good engine to do a V8 swap?? Is the chassis a concern for this swap as far as stability..?

re-rx7

iTrader: (3)

Wow i dunno!

LT1RX7

Nope the chassis is fine for the swap. All the damage appears to be in front of the shock towers and purely cosmetic.

Ironically I did pm Kevin personally. He made it public by making a post out of it. I wasnt trying to get him to take the car back, I wasnt trying to get him to refund me the price of the car, I wasnt threatening to call a lawyer....just looking for a little honesty.

The carfax was clean on the car and no suprise. This repair was NOT done by a body shop so it was never claimed on insurance so it wouldnt come up on a carfax report.

RotaryResurrection

iTrader: (8)

Excerpt from my post in this thread which I suggest you go read if you haven't already: https://www.rx7club.com/lounge-192/opinions-wanted-what-do-about-pestersome-car-buyer-716064/

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Last spring (spring of 06) I bought an FD on ebay to fix up, mainly because I was just screwing around bidding and wound up winning it cheap. Went and picked it up, the car did run but poorly and had several issues. IT was definitely not a one owner car. I did not bother running a carfax because it was cheap, had a clean title, showed no evidence of major issues, and I was already committed to buy it anyway.

I got it home and as time allowed, I pulled the engine/trans and rebuilt it, and replaced a lot of the parts. I powdercoated every part on the engine, not an easy undertaking. I basically put the car back to stock plus made it a bit nicer. While the engine was out, I repainted the engine bay because it looked bad.

I also had the whole car painted, after replacing the front bumper. There was NO damage to the car that prompted this, but the paint looked horrible and the front bumper was warped/wavy like many stock FD bumpers are. I took the replacement bumper and the car to my body man instead of trying to install it myself.

While sandblasting the engine bay for repaint (it was badly faded pink and had carbon all over it from an exhaust leak) I found something that looked odd. All FD's have a seam/joint near the strut towers, from the factory. This little triangular piece is welded on and then has some sort of caulk covering the joints. Well, this was present but it didnt look stock, and there was some slight rust coming out from under it. I decided to grind it off and refill the seam with jb weld to keep it from rusting further. I smoothed it down some and it looked fine once repainted. I didn't see anything obviously wrong while doing this, and I figured that maybe sometime the car had been up north and started rusting there, and someone tried to fix the seam poorly, thus the reason for the non-stock seam.

Not counting personal labor, I had about 10 grand in the car in replacement parts and such, and after several weeks for sale it sold for 10,500 in about July of 06. So I barely broke even and that doesnt account for my labor. The car ran like a dream and looked excellent inside and out for the price. A cleaner FD for 10,500 has not been sold since. During the time the car was for sale I had driven it several hundred miles as had my wife with no issues.

After posting TONS of high res pics in my FS thread as well as a thorough description of what was done to the car, the buyer met me in person and inspected the car, decided it was what he wanted, paid for it, got the title and left.

A few days later I start getting frantic PM's and phone messages from the buyer saying there was a problem. In his home state they have inspections and he says the inspector found evidence that the car had been badly wrecked. I told him that I saw no such evidence. He also had the chance to run a carfax and I believe it came up clean, but I did not see a report myself so I cant be sure. While on the phone he starts cursing me out and telling me I screwed him over, if I had any honor I would buy the car back from him, and other assorted BS.

Bottom line, I told him that he bought a 13 year old car without warranty after inspecting it personally and it was his baby for better or worse. He still admitted that it ran and drove fine and had no driveability issues at all.

Several months later he PM's me to apologize. Says he has been working on the car and sees no evidence of damage, and thinks the inspector was mistaken. Okay, fair enough.

-------------------------------------

So a few days ago, fully 17 months after the sale, the buyer PM's me AGAIN to bitch. Here is the PM:

"I think it is time you come clean about the FD you sold me. I finally got the motor out and started working on it today and you would have to be a moron to not see where the car was crashed.

I couldnt see it at all with the motor in but I should have listened more to the inspector when he said it was repaired. You cut the front clip off right in front of the front strut tower and half *** welded it back with a new clip. One the drivers side it isnt even close to being lined up.

I have plenty of pics of it and it is OBVIOUS with the motor out and since you stated that you even "reseam sealed" that area you would have had to noticed. That is the reason I bet you repainted the engine bay black to try and hide the repairs.

I trusted you as a "shop" and vendor and it is a shame you would not disclose something like this to make a couple extra bucks."

---------------------------------------------

Now, I am anything but a body man. And the car was in no way wrecked or damaged when I obtained it. I didn't remove the front bumper myself so I didnt see what was behind it. I didnt remove any of the radiator, undertray, etc. from the front end either, simply pulled the engine and put it back. I left most of the parts in the engine bay when I rattle canned it and masked off a few of the noticeable stuff on top.

At least one reputable business owner and forum member saw the car when I first got it and while I was working on it and could probably recall enough to vouch that I did not do any body work to it, but the buyer has it in his mind that I screwed him regardless of what I say.

IF the forum had not cleaned all classified threads older than 9 months, you could even search back and find the few parts that I bought for the car that were missing; airbox, rear strut bar, rear divider, front bumper that wasnt warped, fog lights.

So, I am curious what others' reaction would be. I am at the point I am ready to tell him to take a long walk off a short cliff and stop sending me messages, he bought an old car with an unknown history and no warranty. He had the full opportunity to come and inspect it, and run a carfax. He chose to have us meet up in a parking lot on the side of the interstate rather than come and get up under the car here at my place or whatever he was worried about inspecting.

Note that I did not offer any personal or professional warranty on the car or engine even though I had worked on it. For the price there was no way. OF course since I had only had the car for 3 or 4 months and not it's entire 13 year history I could not have known about whatever issues he says it had.

Recap of the important points:

1)I AM NOT A BODY SHOP. I AM NOT TRAINED TO RECOGNIZE PAST REPAIRS. I COULD NOT HAVE DONE THE WORK IN QUESTION IF I HAD WANTED. THE ONLY WELDER I OWN IS A 110 ARC WELDER THAT I USE TO PULL EXHAUST SLEEVES FROM DEAD ROTORHOUSINGS.

2) Carfax was clean.

3) Buyer had the opportunity to come to my house and inspect the car if he wanted. I would have even went with him to any local shop to put it on a lift if he had specified that as a condition of sale. Buyer agreed that me meeting him on the side of the interstate would be helpful for him and that is what he wanted to do.

4) Everything on the front of the car lined up pretty much perfectly. No rubbing or misaligned headlights, no hood hitting the fenders. Car was repainted ONLY because the previous paint was so shitty, it was faded badly.

5) Car drove perfectly straight and had no apparent issues with driveability.

6) I gave no warranty on any part of the car. I made it clear that I did not know the history of the car in the 13.5 years previous to it falling into my hands.

7) I did not market this car as a "shop built vehicle" etc. I sold it on a personal level, as an individual selling a car. Thus the reason for no warranty.

8) I did not make any money off the car when all was said and done.

9) At no time did I misrepresent any part of the car. However there are always those who see pictures on the internet and build an old car up to be something showroom perfect and then have buyers remorse when they get it home and realize it is an old car.

10) IF there is damage to this car then I got screwed just as much as this buyer claims he did, because I BOUGHT IT THAT WAY AS WELL.

rx7roller02

here's a helpful tip for you--before you try to inform us about "the type of people on this forum", you should get educated better on the topic yourself.

You bought a car, for a fair price, which was described to you as a used car. The seller did not make any apparent claim as to the condition of the car beyond his own personal observations in the short time he owned it. He gave no warranty on it. He had no way of knowing what had or had not taken place with the car before he took ownership of it.

You had ample opportunity to inspect it. You drove it. You liked it. You bought it. You were the one looking at the car, in the engine bay, etc etc, and driving the car, and you obviously felt comfortable enough in that process with the car's condition because you bought it. I think that, if the hood, headlights, front bumper didnt line up right, you would have likely noticed it and it would have raised a red flag. None of this was the case, right? So, obviously it did not have any apparent or obvious damage at that time.

Half-assed wiring doesnt usually hold together for nearly a year and a half, under normal use, without some kind of problem creeping up. But you mentioned nothing whatsoever about any electrical problem or failure on this car. So....is the problem that you didnt like what you saw, or is the problem that your inspector buddy had a comment to make and you ran with the ball? You then say that you pulled the motor and found the wiring harness spliced. So--did it work? Or not? Were wires hanging uncovered all over the place, or were they taped or wrapped up together? You described it as a "ball of wiring" so I will assume until told otherwise that he wrapped them. Look--let's get real here. This is a car that's nearly 14 years old. I dont care whether you want to hear that or not, but the fact is that the average wiring harness that old should be redone soon anyways. So, you got a car that everything worked as it should on, and here you are bitching about the wiring hack-job that never was.....tell me again about "the type of people on this forum"??

1--you are taking the word of an inspector, who has not one single clue about the history of this car. He never saw the car before that day. He made an assumption based on his observation. You blindly followed it. Seriously, does it even seem odd at all to you that the seam happens to be exactly where the factory put a seam when the car was built? How likely is it that a unibody car will have a front-end wreck of any consequence, and that the factory join lines would be the right place to effect such a repair?

2--Do you even know what a unibody car does in a wreck??? Clearly you dont. And clearly, your inspector friend doesnt either. A unibody car is designed to spread the force of the impact throughout the entire structure to better protect the people inside. So, because of that, no serious impact would limit damage to only the area forward of the shock towers. The whole frame would have been bent and shifted. If this was because of a crash, it would not have been much of a crash at all to begin with or the whole car's chassis would show signs of it. But you drive it, and it drove straight, and it felt right. Good call....

Again, please bear with me as I address your ignorance. Carfax compiles its data from a bunch of places, not just insurance company records. In fact, one of the most common places that carfax gets its accident data from is police reports of accidents. But hey, dont take my word for it:

http://www.carfax.com/about/car_history/hcwhereinfo.cfm

Notice how under "accident data", do you see anything about obtaining insurance company records? Nope....they use police reports and state records where applicable. It doesnt matter what an insurance company does or doesnt do--the police report will contain the information needed. This means that this car, the one you have actually flat-out accused Kevin of lying to you about, has not been reported by any police agency in the country to have been in an accident, anywhere, at any time. This only bolsters what he has told you this whole time, and it makes you look like an idiot, to be honest.

No, you arent looking for honesty. You didnt like his answer, and you arent gonna be happy until you hear what you want to hear. Without knowing the full story, I can tell you that in over six years on this forum, I have never known Kevin to do body work. Having talked with him personally on several occasions, I have seen the lengths he has gone to on this forum to help people out, often at cost to himself in time and money. I cant count how much money he has spent out of his pocket to help out a fellow 7 owner, asking nothing in return. Sorry, chief, but this is the LAST person I could ever see trying to screw you or anyone else on here. He builds engines, at his place, on his own. He has gone further out of his way to help others in here than the next three people in line, and he doesnt ask for anything in return when he does it. And increasingly these days, people like you try to step up and take advantage of it, or damage his reputation with completely unfounded accusations. Frankly, I am tired of the bullshit. In the old days, Kevin would help someone out the way he does, and get nothing but 'thank you' and respect....and now, he gets more headache than anything else it seems. And then, people wonder why the resources for our cars are disappearing?!?!?!

Bottom line--GET SOME REALITY. You bought a car, 14 years old, with every chance to inspect it. You did so to the point that you were satisfied. Stop pissing and moaning like Kevin did you wrong--owning the car for a few months hardly makes him responsible for anything that someone did before he owned it. The newest RX7 is old, and the only way you will find one in great shape is if the owner has spent the time and money to make it perfect. Sounds to me like you bought yourself an $11K FD and expected to get a $17K or $18K car for that price. Like I said, get a dose of reality.

Icemark

actually most states require you submit an accident report anytime an accident exceeds $500-$1000 (depending on the state)... which would show up on a car fax.

Face it...the fact that you are harping on this 17 month later shows that you are the problem...not Kevin.

For all we know you wrecked the car on the way home and are trying to blame it on Kevin.

If it really was no big deal and you wanted honesty... then you wouldn't still be bringing it up 17 months later

charlies7

iTrader: (4)

Then why post this thread in the first place if the car is fine . If Kevin didnt know about the issues then he is not liable, simple as that. Also what honesty could be looking for? He was lied to also when he purchased the car. If the car is fine leave it. If your not happy with it then sell it. When I bought my FD is had a blown coolant seal, fortunately the guy used some of the block weld **** to make me believe it had some good life left in it. It blew on me 3 months later. I learned from my mistake. Granted im not a fan of Mr. Landers most of the time, I agree with him on this one. No hard feelings

djseven

iTrader: (56)

I will put my name on the line for very, very few people. I have worked hard to keep my name out of the bad guy section. Owning 50+ fds and selling them, it is obvious it isnt an easy accomplishment to keep everyone happy with the worlds most tempermental car.

After saying that, I saw this car the day after Kevin brought it home. It was another typical red fd with some paint fading and a heat warped bumper. I looked the car over for about 30 secs, and went into the garage to do what I had come to do. I go to Kevins atleast once or twice every 2 weeks to pickup and drop off parts. One day I get to his place and see the red fd up there with the new paint job and it is obviously running because of where it sits. I tell Kevin I am going to take it for a ride around the block because I hadnt driven an auto fd in ages. He hands me the keys and I take it around the block. Car ran great and looked great. The paint job needed some wet sanding but other than that was a pretty good paint job. I was happy enough with it to Tow my personal car the near 1 hour drive to the body shop he used to have my car painted there.

A couple weeks later Kevin drove about 50 mins each way to bring me a part I needed for one of my fds, he drove the the car in question there and back with no problems. I even know his wife drove the car to Knoxville and back which is every bit of 1 hour drive each direction. I honestly doubt Kevin ever knew of the accident, if he had, he could have still sold the car for the same price.

Im not on here to flame or anything of that nature, simply here to state I saw this car in person the day after Kevin purchased it, it was not wrecked when he purchased it. I never worked on this car or really spent more than about a total of 10 minutes looking at it or driving it. It seemed to me to be another typical 13 yr old fd. Nothing looked suspicious to me.

rx7roller02

To me this is a very good point. Kevin let his wife drive this car a considerable distance. To the thread starter, ask yourself this:

If you had a car, and you knew that that car was in a wreck, possibly even unsafe, would you toss your wife the keys and have her drive that car on one-hour-each-way trips?

I know I wouldnt.....

kabooski

there is nothing "Shady" the Price is fair EVEN for a rebuilt title FD that kevin put money and time into.....

RotaryResurrection

iTrader: (8)

Note that the title was clean and normal, as was the carfax. No salvage or rebuilt title to my knowledge.

RotaryResurrection

iTrader: (8)

True. And the trip in question to meet David with parts, I brought my (at the time) 1.5 year old with me in the car. Again, would I have done this for some car that I knew to be a rickety welded together piece of ****? This car looked and drove perfectly normal.

The guy was bitching about the tires. Yes it was clear they had sat for a while but the drive fine and were not bumpy or noisy. I was sure that any buyer would probably replace them within a few weeks of purchase anyway, with the tire of choice to suit their needs (daily driving, autox, etc.). So I saw no need in putting myself 500 bucks deeper into the hole on the car by putting new ones on myself. I did state that they were okay to ride on and had okay/good tread but picky buyers would probably want to replace them soon.

MmSadda

iTrader: (2)

I don't see ANY reason to beat Kevin up over this; if it WAS in a crash, it would've been more than $1k worth of damage, and legally would've had to be reported to the police. Since the CARFAX didn't show that, it SOULD be safe to assume that the car wasn't in a crash, so your 'inspector' either doesn't know what he's talking about, or Kevin bought a car without knowing of a problem, and then sold it to you.

Also, it seems that other people saw this car, and thought highly of it. Hell, he even let his wife drive that FD; I wouldn't let my girlfriend drive a car of mine that I didn't trust 100%

allrotor93

iTrader: (126)

As I remember you got a hellova deal on that car.....the only thing he can do is comment on what he is qualified to comment on. The mechanics of the car.

black99

Wow... Perhaps the term "bought as-is/where-is" fits here.. Even if it was in a wreck at some point it's buyers responsibility to check the car over 100% to make sure they know what they're getting.

XxMerlinxX

iTrader: (2)

So if you can pull one over on the buyer, why not?

LT1RX7

EXACTLY. This practice is known as FRAUD......

black99

Nope it means know what you're buying because I'm not responsible for you not knowing if I personally myself didn't know.. Sometimes cars history is unknown and sometimes it hasn't been in the sellers possession enough to know everything about the car.

Every car I've ever bought/sold is "as-is/where-is" and is how a majority of the world buys used cars especially when they approach 10 years old and over. Watch the peoples court sometime, you'll figure it out. Meaning if I didn't tell you about it then I don't know about it and it's your responsibilty to check the car over, and question anything that you might be concerned about.

Whether it's 10k car or a 100k car the same rules apply. I feel sorry you didn't know about it but unless you can prove the seller knowingly knew about it with it in written form then it's not his fault. And no it's not fraud. As long as no one made a written promise and/or told you the car is "as-is/where-is" it's perfectly legal and the way used car buying works. You have every right to take it to a mechanic before hand, and or pick the car apart yourself. And every right to pass on any seller that won't give you time to do that.

What would I do in your situation? Realize he said he didn't know about it, leave it at that. The chalk it up as lesson learned for next time.

rx7what

iTrader: (6)

Exactly and the whole point of this thread is that there is no way Kevin could have missed the fact that the whole front of the car had been chopped off and re welded back together so poorly. Also the fact that that the wire harness had been completly cut through near the fire wall and then spliced/taped back together. Your telling me he has worked on countless RX7's, can rebuild a motor, but cant see well enough to notice the frame rails don't even line up properly. While he is cleaning and repainting the engine bay.

The point is he knew and didn't disclose, that is fraud. If he say he didn't know than that would make him a retard. Barely able to function let alone work on some ones motor. You don't have to be a body man to see how badly the frame rails line up, come on guys stop riding his leg and look at the pictures. If you had repainted that engine bay would you have noticed that?

Now on the other hand this is a little late to be bringing up. But the car as far as i know basically set around waiting for the motor and tranny to be swapped. As he stated it does not effect the way the car drives or looks he just wanted to inform every one else of the situation. After seeing this post it defiantly changes a few things and opinions for me.

black99

I'm riding no ones leg. I'm intermediate. Even if it's out in the open it's still the buyers choice to look the car over before he buys. There are alot of IF's meaning you don't know what the seller saw/noticed or didn't. Calling anyone a retard at this point is childish IMO. But from what you guys say is wrong with it I don't know how anyone could buy the car and overlook all that sh%t being wrong with it.. lol

Legally I still don't think the seller is liable. And forum politics wise... It's he said vs. he said. Even with the damage the buyer didn't get a bad deal. The car ran and drove, obviously visually looked correct with a fresh engine. Which may not be the point right now. But every other way it was sold as what he expected it to be.

rx7roller02

with all due respect, you really came off as a real bonehead right there. If your expertise is in engine rebuilds, how the hell does that make you an expert on welding?

You failed in at least two ways. First, you failed to grasp when Kevin mentioned that this is a known join from the factory, and he resealed it because it wasnt in the best of shape. Second you failed to comprehend when Kevin mentioned that he doesnt know anything about body work. If you dont know body work, then you dont automatically know when something was done wrong, or sometimes even if something was done at all. Again, this is the precise location of the factory join. Next time, try actually reading and thinking. It works.

also, youre an idiot....seriously. Tell me, just exactly how many fully intact, original-condition wiring harnesses are out there, on these 14 year old cars?? The fact that it was worked on, as long as the wiring was connected properly and securely, is actually BETTER THAN A STOCK UNTOUCHED WIRING HARNESS....because a harness that old is due for problems to start if they have not already! As was already mentioned earlier in this thread, the wiring harnesses in these cars do not last forever.

And besides, what the hell is the matter with you people? This thread starter did not once, at any time, complain of ANY electrical failure or problem on this car....so why the hell are you morons whining about the condition of the harness?? If there are no failures under normal operation, then I guess the repair work wasnt that bad after all, huh Mr. Wizard??

Wrong. That is not fraud. Not even close. The problem, as he understood it, was not what you claim it is. At this point there is not one shred of proof that this car was in fact wrecked! Carfax is clear. Title is clear. No known accident reports anywhere on this car. This car was sold as-is, and the buyer was clearly told that Kevin had no way of knowing the history prior to buying the car. The buyer himself was given ample opportunity to examine the car, to have the car checked out, and he did exactly enough checking on this car to satisfy his curiosity. THAT IS NOT THE SELLER'S FAULT OR PROBLEM.

The entire premise of fraud is intentionally misrepresenting a car to be something it isnt, moron. That is one thing. If Kevin sold this as a perfect car, "never wrecked in its history since new", THEN it would be fraud. But in this case, Kevin sold a car with no warranty, and advised the buyer that he could not know what this car had seen before he took ownership of it. The buyer was happy enough to pay the money at that point. THATS ON THE BUYER.

Finally, Kevin drove his child in this car. He let his wife drive this car. AGAIN, I ASK--if you KNOW that a car was wrecked, WOULD YOU PUT YOUR LOVED ONES IN IT?? Knowing, as everyone does, that the integrity of the frame equals safety, would YOU risk YOUR wife's life, or YOUR child's?? Of course not! So why the hell are you so ignorant that you think he would? That alone speaks volumes as to exactly what Kevin "knew" about this car. Funny how when I asked that question before there were no takers on answering it....but you still bash the seller here. Let's try using a little common sense, please.


In this day and age, who in the world would buy a 14 year old sports car and NOT check it out better than he did? If this were an obvious attempt to hide the condition I would have agreed with you. But it wasnt. The buyer had every opportunity to check the car out and was even invited to, but he was satisfied. If he was satisfied then, with a clear title and clean carfax, then thats on him. He doesnt get the right to whine and complain now, because he was perfectly happy making assumptions when he was told to check the car out! This should be a lesson learned for all....especially with a SPORTS CAR that a lot of people would have driven poorly and probably not taken the best care of. He got a hell of a deal, with a solid rebuild and new paint to boot. He paid what, 10,500 for it? People are selling FD's MINUS DRIVETRAIN for 5-7K!

JustJeff

iTrader: (13)

+1 for a bit of logic