I can't seem to get a straight answer out of anyone on what target EGT's should be. Australian WI guys say 850-900*C (1562-1652*F), I've heard over 1800*F, and higher.

That's reasonable. I would assume I don't have an issue with that, though. Here's my setup:

1. Old-style HKS cast log manifold w/ undivided flange
2. Single HKS 40mm gate rerouted into pipe
3. Big-shaft P-Trim, 0.96 A/R undivided housing
4. 3" downpipe to rest of 3" single
5. Straight pipe of course.

B

I dont know by experience but for what I have read, the EGT you are looking for is in the 1550 to 1650 degrees. Most of the places I have been reading this about said that 1800 is too high. Typical gas engines ( Not rotary) normally should stay around 1250 to 1450 degrees.

Brian,

If it is something you are amenable to, please start logging EBP. I am inclined to agree that the direction Dudeman is pushing is worth exploring. With such dramatic changes in tune and almost no affect on EGT, I'm beginning to think that your hardware is playing a role, that without EBP logging, is going unseen.

Anyway, keep up the good work.

Hey Calculon, thanks for the suggestion. I may go ahead and do it at some point since I'm going to be getting a 2nd EGT gauge and will have the turbo and manifold off. But first, I'd like to change out the lead plugs (they're still BUR9EQ's) with new race plugs and see how it does.

B

Jan 24 09 Update
 

Hey folks, I'm converting over some datalogs from today's runs. EJayce996 and I went out again for about an hr and got some decent data. It was 36-38*F here today in DFW. We had a nice cold front come through last night that chilled the air which made for a perfect day of comparative testing. I modified the fuel map a bit to try and richen it up high and wound up going overboard. Still using 75/25 ratio of gasoline to alcohol. Top boost was 24psi and was fairly solid. Did it in both 3rd and 4th gear. Also appears to be no appreciable difference in EGT's or AFR's (oddly enough) after having pulled a chunk of Lead advance out (6-7*BTDC at 23-24psi and 14*BTDC at 14-15psi). Makes me wonder if some of us are running too far ahead at higher boost.

Went out today hoping to get a handle on three particular things:

1. Find out what IAT's would be under comparative boost pressures from yesterday
2. Measure difference in EGT's at low boost (1bar) with AFR's from low-mid 11's:1 to low-mid 10's:1.
3. See if moving the boost controller's pressure source off the UIM/LIM rear primary intake runner to the bottom of three nipples on the front of the UIM in the surge plenum.

Here's what I found:

1. Normal cruising IAT's were around 80-85*F. At 14psi, the air temps settled between 65-66*F. At 15psi, they settled at 69*F. At 17psi, right at 70*F. At 24psi, they crept up to about 84-85*F. At that boost, they seemed less resilient to staying flat and seemed to incline upwards a tad. First time I've seen that. From what I can tell, at 14psi from yesterday's ambient temps (78-81*F) and today's (36-38*F) there's about a 20*F IAT difference.

2. My instincts were correct on this. I did two back-to-back runs in 4th gear up to mid 5krpm's to show enough of an RPM sweep and difference in EGT's. I tried low-mid 11's:1 at first (turned the alcohol Gain down) and shortly thereafter tried a low-mid 10's:1 (setting the Gain back to where it was). Taking one RPM point between the two, I gathered this data:

5000 14psi +4.71vdc 66* 1695*F mid 11's:1
5000 14psi +4.51vdc 64* 1623*F low-mid 10's:1

This can be seen on datalogs BDCHA31 and BDCHA32 (the first two that will be linked below.) As far as differences in EGT's between the same boosts compared to today's near freezing temperatures and yesterday's, there doesn't seem to be any quantifiable difference unless I missed it. I attribute it to the boosted IAT's being pretty close in temps to both days. Seems running richer AFR's into the 10's:1 definitely lower the EGT's a good degree.

3. Yep as both Dudeman and I suspected. +1 for Dudeman. No more shaky boost gauge or shaky boost reading.

My T-Bolt clamps showed up today. Got them for very cheap at http://www.siliconeintakes.com. They're already on the car.

The next thing I'll be doing is swap out these BUR9EQ's I've got in the Leadings and swap them for that new GReddy plug but probably use a 10 heat range instead of 9. From what I understand, these stock plugs shouldn't be used for that. I lean-burn the engine enough during cruising that I don't think they'll be a problem. If they are, I'll go to a 9.

I need a dyno. There's just no way around this now.

Datalogs in the next post.

B

http://bdc.cyberosity.com/d/14162-1/IMG_6364.JPG

Jan 24 09 Datalogs
 

These two datalogs show the difference in EGT's running low-mid 11's:1 (first) compared to low-mid 10's:1 (second).

BDCHA31

http://bdc.cyberosity.com/d/14168-1/bdcha31-1.jpg

http://bdc.cyberosity.com/d/14170-1/bdcha31-2.jpg

http://bdc.cyberosity.com/d/14172-1/bdcha31-3.jpg



BDCHA32

http://bdc.cyberosity.com/d/14174-1/bdcha32-1.jpg

http://bdc.cyberosity.com/d/14176-1/bdcha32-2.jpg

http://bdc.cyberosity.com/d/14178-1/bdcha32-3.jpg

http://bdc.cyberosity.com/d/14180-1/bdcha32-4.jpg

http://bdc.cyberosity.com/d/14182-1/bdcha32-5.jpg

BDCHA34

http://bdc.cyberosity.com/d/14184-1/bdcha34-1.jpg

http://bdc.cyberosity.com/d/14186-1/bdcha34-2.jpg

http://bdc.cyberosity.com/d/14188-1/bdcha34-3.jpg



BDCHA35

http://bdc.cyberosity.com/d/14190-1/bdcha35-1.jpg

http://bdc.cyberosity.com/d/14192-1/bdcha35-2.jpg

http://bdc.cyberosity.com/d/14194-1/bdcha35-3.jpg

A suggestion on the plugs, (which I found out my local honda motorcycle shop could get), is an NGK BR10EIX, once I recieved a set from racing beat and crossed them with the plugs I got from the honda shop are obviously identical and not too pricey. Apparently the motorcycle shop listed them as a snowmobile plug. As you can tell they are a 10 heat range. Keep up the work B

Chris

DarkKnightFC Arent those the ones that you have to modify slightly the spark plug hole in the housing to fit? I also have read they are pretty good.

Or you can buy a thin wall socket (or make your own).

An easier way is to buy a thin wall spark plug socket, or turn down a regular socket on a lathe. (what I did)

Brian, nice use of the cooler weather to get some more testing done. Very impressed with the amount of time and experimenting you've done on this project.

As far as the EGT testing went, I think a better test would be to leave the alcohol the same and lower the base pump fuel maps. The reduction in alcohol could quite possibly be the reason the EGT's went up the 70 degree's.
Remember alcohol has about half the heat value of gasoline thus requiring twice as much fuel, this is a large part of how it helps cool the combustion temperatures. So by removing alcohol instead of pump fuel, firstly your removing the fuel that helping cool things so much, and secondly you have to remove twice as much alcohol compared to gasoline in order to drop 1 point in afr's. Although, I also don't think 70 degrees is a huge difference when you're looking at numbers close to 2000* F especially for a full point difference in AFR's. While adding fuel is helping a little to keep your EGT's from sky rocketing, I think something else is holding it back from being cooler. Maybe EBP. The cast manifold holds heat much more then stainless steel, and doesn't quite flow as well as an equal length tubed manifold. If I was to speculate on something holding the heat my guess would be with the log manifold. The main source of heat after the combustion process is exhaust, if it can't escape fast enough the heat is going to be higher.

I'm glad to hear the boost is holding more steady. It's a little unnerving to have the car surging while you're in it.

EDIT: P.S. the very first post in Howard Coleman's 80% pump 20%Meth thread his AFR's were low 10's and his EGT's were around 1000* F, His meth injection was 20% and running like 15 psi..I think last I read he was having trouble getting them to the optimum 1550- 1600* range. Really the only thing different in his setup is maybe lower intake temps, but not by much, and a more free flowing exhaust system.
-Brent V.

If it were me I would locate the nozzles as close to the outlet of the turbo as possible to get maximum heat saturation before entering the mani. You have seen that further upstream makes a noticable difference so why not go as far as you can. In addition to that I would like to see some temps at compressor outlet that way we can have a clear view of just how much heat its actually absorbing. It's obviously a lot but like you I enjoy numbers. And its a damn good possibility that you're coming up on the limit of your setup as it stands. When we start talking about ss manifolds and new exhaust routing then you will be changing the idea behind your whole experiment. Of course you will have a better setup and make more reliable horsepower if everything is optimal in the design but I want to know how much heat the alcohol is removing and how much power you can make with this set up because its not too extravagant and not too expensive. When you start changing things you get away from your original intentions. Lets be honest 27psi thru a hot air pipe is a hell of a lot on the street. Personally I think you've shown that you can definitely make do quite well without an intercooler but I think soon you will run into a wall whether it be due to your hardware or the tuning. If it were me I would contact via email some of the bigger names in the game and ask them what EGT's they look for because as of now we're speculating what the ideal number is.

Chris

Hell to be honest whatever size alky tank you're running I think it was a gallon? I'd put 10% water in and see if it did anything to absorb that extra heat in the chamber just for shits. I'd leave everything else as it is. It couldn't hurt right :)

I think it's interesting to see how this thread has been morphing as it goes along. And it has covered so much more then chemical intercooling. With hard data. I'm just glad I jumped in on this thread from the begining, nothing sucks more then finding an interesting thread that's 20 pages long and you want to read it all but ends up being so time consuming.

I too think knowing the amount of heat the alcohol is removing would be very fascinating. I'm not sure moving the nozzles even closer would change much with the temps, although i was very confident the first move would have very good results.

Provided Brian doesn't add an intercooler I don't think changing manifold's or Downpipe would be getting away from his original experiment. A pain in the ass maybe, but definitely not getting away from the original idea. The intercooler has little to no effect at this point on the egt's, His original experiment was what the results of chemical intercooling would be, and as it stands, Brian has proved the chemical intercooler to be superior to running an air to air intercooler. There might be an advantage to running an air to air, and then meth on top of that. Maybe Howard can test his air temps after the alcohol to get an idea of how much additional cooling can be had. The gains I would expect is maybe a 30 degree drop in temp and a subsequent 3% increase in power.

I think SS tubed manifolds are more common now a days, so they are not something majorly out of reach for people, and a larger downpipe wouldn't be a huge huge task, especially compared to some of the others Brian has undergone. I don't suggest he goes to the trouble of building a twin turbo setup like Howard's, as that is definitely a costly/complex step for increased reliability. But if Brian has come across any kind of wall, it's certainly not due to the lack of an intercooler. I think before changing anything though, an idea of what kind of exhaust back pressure he has now would be ideal.


Not a bad idea at all, and simple enough. Could even try 10%, 35%, and 50% to see the effects both on air temp, as well as EGT's.
-Brent V.

Yes +1 on adding some water to the equation, up to 50/50. I am really interested since my car is about to go out of the shop and I have a 50/50 setup. I would be really interested in seeing if with meth alone is better or worse than that. And like they say, its simple enough, may have to play a little with the fuel map to compensate though?

ya maybe using 50/50 might be a good experiment

I don't think adding water is going to make it any better. Methanol is doing 2 jobs right now, which is cooling charge air instantly due to methanol's flashing nature and increasing the octane of the fuel entering the combustion chamber. My opinion anyway from what I understand but would be interesting to see the difference for some hard facts.

thewird

Well 2 things about water. It's octane rating is infinite. And it absorbs more heat then alcohol. He might have to play with the gain and mixture ratio a bit, but i have a feeling he can get the same low air temps and lower his combustion temps better then the alcohol alone. Of course only trying it will truelly tell us how well it will work. If he was to do a 50/50 at most he would then be using half the meth which would cut costs down. He could also turn the gain up and be using the same amount of meth and just have the addition of water. He would have to refill his container more often though. Might as well experiment as much as possible to truelly find the ideal setup for his situation.

Yep water is better at cooling down the temperatures inside the Combustion Chamber since it doesnt evaporate as fast as alcohol. So it may not give an advantage on the IAT but may give some difference inside the CC and therefore the EGT's.

Found the blow-off valve I want to get. It's a Turbo XS Type H34 and will replace the current Type H I've got on it. This one is a high pressure racing valve that has a flanged output for a hose that'll vent back into a turbo inlet duct. With a

http://www.boostcontroller.com/index...ca3a19f167a42a

B

Great work Brian, a lot of intensive thought! for the guys interested in EGTs,and EBPs, the next level of turbocharging will be compound turbos, two turbs, one smaller blowing into a larger one, tests have shown drive pressure reduction as much as %50 along with lower EGTs, lower drive pressure alows a much higher volumetric level, more air and lower in chamber temps to help reduce potential knock, YES it would be a tuning nightmare! but all this stuff was 10yrs back
Ron

also a thought,, some place i read that on pre turb water inj ,the water at the perephery of the comp wheel, at boost ,changes its molecular process and expands a lot , something like a steam but at a lower temp, and helps to increase density.
but i damn sure dont know if its true.
also compond turbs can run much higher intake pressures for longer periods of time. all you guys keep on cooking, look at the fun your havin
Ron

wow, you've been busy. You are much more thorough than I am about logging my progress. ;) Thanks tho, it's a huge benefit to the community. Rotary guys really need alcohol, it's the answer to making safe, reliable power with the Wankle.

I noticed three things while quickly shuffling through your thread:
1. You are running a little high AITs in vacuum. Even though mine are lower than yours in vacuum, this is the main reason I want to add a small intercooler. It will unfortunately make my pre-compressor jet obsolete. Really sucks because this is where the magic happens, weather you want to admit it or not (BTW, logs are attached).


2. You are barely getting your AITs back to ambient. Pre-compressor jet is NEEDED to solve this. You may go through a compressor wheel once every 4 years with a small M2 in front. Also, It would be a huge benefit for the AI if you were to aim your jets TOWARD the incoming air. Much better atomization.

3. Your motor is knocking. Try 50/50 water/meth. Water is a FAR BETTER knock deterrent. Water absorbs heat in the combustion chamber much better than any fuel.

Thanks for your diligence, great work. Now it's SHOW TIME.

........................................


ALL LOGS CAN BE SEEN IN HIGHER RES AND MORE DETAIL HERE

Last Thursday I did some 1st through 4th pulls with one jet post-compressor. The truth here is my pre-compressor jet was stuck closed. I was using a spring loaded jet at this location. I switched it after these tests.

One Jet, Post Compressor Night time pull. 65* Estimated Outside temp
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_AEAL2Ej4Lg...neNozzle01.jpg
1st thru 4th gear, One Nozzle after the Compressor. 50/50 Water/Meth
You can easily see the AIT's (in BLUE) climb immediately in boost, then take small little drops through out the 4 gears. Not too bad, actually seeing AIT drop during boost is a great success, but the initial climb is a little steep, from 73 to 87, about 15 degrees. And my goal is LOWER than ambient temps under boost.



........................................


Today, I spent some time fine tuning the 2 jet system. I swapped the spring loaded jet for a better style, and swapped steel fittings for stainless steel. I also finished installing my pressure switch LED. If the lines get clogged, the LED turns off and boost time is over. :). I will get some 1st through 4th logs tomorrow to "compare apples to apples". This is all I got today.

Two Jets; One Pre, One Post Compressor Day time pull. 78* Estimated Outside temp
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_AEAL2Ej4Lg...zle1stGear.jpg
!st Gear Pull, Two Jets. 50/50 Water/Meth.
For some reason, AIT's always climb a little in 1st gear. I am still working on this, might be the Turn-On point. All other gears it drops.


http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_AEAL2Ej4Lg.../2Nozzle02.jpg
3rd Gear, Two Nozzles. 50/50
This is great right here. There is a 30* drop in 2 seconds!!! I love it!! From 95* to 68* (about 10* BELOW ambient). I know this isn't a great log because I didn't get to bang the gears, but it was great to see AIT drop so drastically and notice how they stay low long after the AI pump is off.

Thanks. Yep I've been busy with it. I agree about alcohol, too.

Given the efficacy of the alcohol at pulling IAT's down during boost, I'm not concerned about high IAT's while cruising. Doesn't really make much difference to me; the car runs just fine.

I'm not expecting to get any IAT's back to ambient with a hot-air pipe and this much boost. I have gotten my IAT's close to and slightly lower than ambient a few times running closer to 1bar (more like 14psi) but definitely not at higher. The highest I've seen IAT's so far is 95-98* and that's around 22-23psi on an ~80*F day.

As far as a pre-turbo nozzle, I'm not ruling it out but I'm still skeptical about it. I may wind up doing it in the future but I've got no plans right now. Ultimately though, it'd make sense to try it as it fits in the overall theme of this experiment.

Aside from the good possibility of misfires from using BUR9EQ plugs in the Leadings, the motor hasn't knocked since I moved the nozzles upstream and staggered them. I think that's around on page 7 or 8 or so. Apparently moving them up away from just in front of the throttle body had a pretty massively positive effect.

Good logs! I can't wait for more folks to give this stuff a try.

B

Side seals have been known to break under high intake temps.

with the boost you are running, it may be more difficult to drop below ambient. I can't wait to up the boost on my set up and see how it responds.

Yep, makes perfect sense...

glad you got that taken care of. I wouldn't put the jets so close to the TB anyway, false AIT readings, no atomization... Once you are happy with your results, try aiming the jets toward the incoming air stream. Should make you even happier :)

Thanks. I will get a nice 1-4th run today so we can compare one nozzle to two.
Seriously tho, you are spraying two HUGE M10s post turbo... that's alot of alcohol. At this point I am begging you to just TRY a small M2 pre-turbo. You will see the same (if not better) results with less alcohol.

I will say, I am enjoying the step-by-step comparison. I'm just impatient. ;)