Water/AI components
 

I looked around quite a bit and really I have seen alot of different kits that people have, and alot of different things that people have done. I want to get the AI/Water setup asap. Problem is I have no clue what is the best setup for what I have. Currently Im running the stock twins and as soon as im back from this deployment (1 month :)) Im going to install....Power Fc/ intake/down pipe/high flow cat/racing beat exhaust/ getting a full silicone hose job/ and the Pettit coolcharge III intercooler. Im going for a conservitive tune and about 320 hp tops for the time being.

With this info given and the fact that im going to switch to a gt35R kit in the next year or so (shooting for 400 hp on a streetport) which kit out there is the best for me. Im looking for a full kit! Everything that I need from the Tank/injectors/lines/pump/hookups everything that I will need.

And I plan on hooking the injector up to the greddy elbow.

Thanks for helping me out if you do....

Howard Coleman, I read your thread on standing up for the rotary and its completely what conviced me of doing this. Your the man.

http://www.rx7store.net/250_PSI_Stan...trunkmount.htm

This kit looks pretty decent... I dont know if it has "everything" but i dont know what the hell im talking about with this AI/Water injection shit thats why im here.

I'm suffering from the same problem -- information overload.

I'm also confused about what sensors can be run together to get the optimal environment Howard talks about so much. For instance, I'm running a Haltech E6X, PLX Wideband, and GReddy EGT. Is it even possible to combine these? Because I have a first gen, I threw out all of the stock sensors in favor of a full standalone and not the PowerFC. Are my current sensors junk for running HD-AI? Should I just put everything up for sale and start over?? LOL.

Anyways, just wanted to say "ditto".

AEM is what I run.

If you just plan on using water it's actually quite simple. Pick up the coolingmist trunk mount kit and your done. Simple to install.

FYI,

all coolingmist kits are methanol compatible.

take care

"Howard Coleman, I read your thread on standing up for the rotary and its completely what conviced me of doing this. Your the man. "

no, if you are on deployment, YOU ARE THE MAN.

i recently did a car for a friend that had blown his motor. generally i don't pull motors and do mechanical work but i felt if i didn't analize the whole set of systems he might just blow another motor...

anyway, he has a GT35r and does a bit of road racing and the FD w 375 rwhp will beat most other cars ontrack.... so we didn't need methanol... we just needed to lock down his systems and run water.

i installed a Coolingmist setup w the pump attached to the tank. sort of turnkey. it works like a dream. engine is happy. my friend is happy. case closed.

i may have a thread on the install w a few pics. thanks RX7store and Coolingmist.

OTOH, i had a couple of engines i had built tuned by Steve Kan in Minn 2 weeks ago. we were looking for hp. both were Coolingmist systems.

one ran 2 M10 (1260 CC/Min) nozzles w 100% meth, an R85 and made 501 Standard rwhp at 20 psi. the other was AI limited as it ran only one 500 CC nozzle and was a meth water mix so Steve tuned it to 459 rwhp.

take your pick.... AI works.

RotaryRocket93... look forward to your safe ruturn and PM me w any questions or better yet post them so all can share. (BTW, i don't have all the answers.)

howard

Appreciate the responses from yall... The YOU ARE THE MAN made me lol.... This 250 psi cooling mist kit from RX7store looks like about what I need.... Im guessing all I need to use in it is water for my applications. Planning on 400hp max down the road .

http://www.rx7store.net/250_PSI_Stan...trunkmount.htm

I guess now all I need to know is for a fact. Does it come with EVERYTHING that I need to Hook it up from a source of power (from the battery I suppose) all the way to the Nozzles?

And Do I need to do anything special to hook it up to a greddy elbow? Any kind of nozzle or flange?



once again thanks for everyones help...

Also if anyone has a pic of the nozzle installed on the elbow it would be awesome if you could post it in this thread.

ya the kit comes with everything you need to get it up and running. Doesn't look like it comes with a controller though. Maybe coolingmist can chime back in on that.

Additional item I got was a low level float. You can get those right from coolingmists website.

Installed my nozzle in stock elbow. It's simple to do. Picked up a tap at Lowes. Once you drill and tap, the nozzle threads right in.

I'm really interested in this whole evolution also, but am in the same boat with the information/option overload.

What I've taken from what I've read so far is that you basically can go about AI from:

1. Simplest setup running only water (or windshield wiper fluid) with the goal of reducing the risk of detonation. Side benefit of keeping your engine clean as well. This option is not tuning for power, it's just an additional safety feature.
2. Tuning for power. This opens a whole other range of possibilities and situations. If the AI system fails you could be in trouble. This is obviously going to be more complicated as it's something you constantly have to be aware of and monitor.

Goodfellafd3s has some pics of a setup that is basically what I was thinking about doing. Connect a pump up to your windshield washer tank, run your injector(s) to the elbow and then chose if you want to use voltage or boost pressure to run the system. This is the route I'll probably be going as I don't track the car much at all. When I do get on the gas during street driving though, I'll have the extra safety margin the AI system provides.

Tuning for power means I'll need to run more gauges, fluid level lights, trunk tank mount and the headache of constantly making sure its working perfectly.

You could also always start out with the basic # 1 option, and later on when you go single add in the additional electronics to monitor the system and install a larger tank in the trunk.

The problem for me is picking a vendor :( Coolingmist, aquamist, devils own, AEM snow performance .... I probably forgot a few.

I also concur on Howard's posts, I've enjoyed reading them as well he's a huge asset to this community. Thanks Howard.

Whats going to be the difference on the 250 psi kit and the 150 psi? $50? other than that what does it do for you?

Ill be pusing 22psi and 500whp on my next setup on pure water. 400 is totally doable.

Im just waiting to know the difference between the 250psi and 150 before I make my order.... I dont know that the 250 psi is neccessary or not for my setup.

I have the 150psi pump as well as probably most others. Pretty sure the 250psi pump came out relatively short while ago. The higher psi pump will give better water atomization.

Okay, so 150 psi pump it will be..... Just out of curiosity where would be the best place on the cold side of the intercooler piping to tap and thread the hole for the nozzle? Would it be the greddy elbow? Or the intercooler Piping? And what size hole do i need to make tap and thread....

an easy way to situate the nozzles would be to locate them in the silicone coupler immediately in front of the greddy elbow... pictures in my thread on the Alkycontrol setup i ran 2 years ago.. a sticky in the AI section.

hc

I saw that im kind of confused as to how it will stay in the coupler and not harm the structural integrity of the silicone coupler its self....

Here is a photo of a silicone coupler taken from the Devils Own site

11/32 drill bit and 1/8th NPT (27 threads per inch) tap - Not very difficult to drill and tap but as Howard mentioned, the coupler is gonna be the easiest method.

okay so its not like its just popped in there at all....

I like the Idea of the Coupler that way I can keep my elbow more open for future modifications.... like a new bov for when i go single... What parts do you use to secure the nozzle on the coupler like a washer and nut? that would be some serious shit if the nut got sucked into the intake.....

yes a washer and nut and some loctite. no problem. there should be a few pics in my alkycontrol install thread

hc

Hey Howard! I looked at that thread... very impressive indeed. I just didnt know what was on the other side of that nozzle. Im assuming you drilled out a hole just big enough to squeeze the nozzle into then secured it from the other side? If this is the case this is the route ill take, simple and can be undone if need be with alot less cost of a new elbow...

As you are looking into constructing a system for your project, the following information will help to to identify what is currently on the market.


Aim of W/M (water methanol) injection:

1. Induction cooling: a large amount of heat is absorbed during evaporation.

2. Octane boosting and knock suppression: Methanol - suppresses knock by octane supplement. Water suppresses by slowing down flame speed.

3. In-cylinder coolng: reducing peak combustion temperature durng evaporation.

4. EGT reduction: reduces temperature stress to exhaust valves and turbo turbine blades.



W/M System basics:

5. Pressurised W/M pushing through an atomising nozzle

6. W/M System is normally triggered by engine load sensor



WM system options:

7. Single stage system (SS-S): full spray after triggering

8. Double stage system (DS-S): A second nozzle is activated at a higher engine load

9. Progressive pump speed system (PPS-S): A motor speed controller progressively increasing pump speed to attain high line pressure to increase flow.

10. PWM valve system (PWM-V): Same principle as a standard fuel injection system, flow is controller by an inline valve.



WM system availability from WM manufacturers:

11. Single stage: All manufactures make them

12. Two stage system: Often needs a second pressure switch added to the single stage system

13. Progressive pumps system: all manufacturers except FJO and Aquamist

14. PWM valve system: FJO (cell by cell) and Aquamist (IDC tracking) only.



Not all the systems are the same

15. A PPS system normally costs about 30% less than the PWM valve system.

16. A PPS (progressive pump speed) system cannot be compared to a PWM valve (similar to an OE fuel injection system) system. At best the dynamic flow range of a PPS system is x2. This calculation is based on a pressure change of 60psi to 240psi. For a "pressure change" of x4, you will only get x2 flow change.

17. For "PPS" system to work as well as a "PWM valve" system (at worse x10 dynamic flow range), the PPS system needs to have a pressure change of 60 psi to 600psi!!!

18. The other important factor most people missed is the response time to a load transient. A rotation mass as in a PPS cannot suddenly speed up and slow down. This leads to a delay in a "ramp up" and a delay in "ramp down". A PWM valve system response to load change in a "thousandth of" a seconds compare to "tenth-of" seconds. This leads to inconsistant AFR during load or gear change.


For more indepth details study of the systems go to the link below:

https://www.rx7club.com/auxiliary-injection-173/indepth-study-wai-injection-systems-820079/

.

Rotary Rocket,

contact Jason at the Rx-7 Store he can suggest a coolingmist kit for you. There are coolignmist kits on the forum supporting 500 HP cars, so it will work well with your application and you dont have to pay an arm and a leg for it.

Thank you Richard L, that was a phenomenal summation -- it's only missing *one* item and it's what concerns me the most about AI -- can I use my existing ECU (Haltech E6X) to get the controller the signal it needs?

Most if not all systems on the market do not use Fuel IDC as a primary input signal to control water/meth flow. If you want to go this route, Aquamist is your only choice.

Our current system HFS-6 (PWM-Valve system) converts the IDC % to flow. Signal is read from the fuel injector directly. In you case, you send the PWM signal to HFS-6 from the Haltech directly. Any PWM Frequency from 30Hz to 3KHz will work. The higher the frequency, the better it is.

The H6 is equipped with flow monitoring failsafe output to enable your ECU to switch map upon a failsafe activation. Can the Haltech switch maps "on the fly"?

I think "on the fly" would be possible only with a laptop. I don't think there's any way to do it without one. I'm looking through Haltech's updated E6X manual to see if there's any other way to do it.

I'm pretty deep into my project and set up the Haltech E6X before I had the slightest clue about AI (not to say that I have much of a clue right now, anyway), but I guess at this point switching ECUs is a possibility. I definitely want to have a sound system though.

I think it would be perfect if I could use an output from the Haltech to provide the source signal to the AI controller.

Thanks for all of the help. You and Howard are assets to this community.

EDIT: This implies that switching maps on the fly would be possible (in my mind...): http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...techManual.jpg

Richard,

Does Aquamist provide a kit that compares well with the basic trunkmount coolingmist kit that I posted a link to in the 1st page?

After reading the attached image, it appeared the Haltech cab change map "on the fly". All you need to do is linking aux input to the Aquamist's map-switch output. Please confirm this with Haltech.

Let me know. Our map switch output is +5v (system OK) to 0v (failsafe activation).

At first glance at the kit you mentioned is almost half the price of the aquamist's comparable system. (HFS-1). If you look a bit closer, you will find out why.

Similarity:
1. Both trunk mount
2. Both pumps are made by Aquatec USA. Can be set to 250psi (not recommended).

Difference:
4. Aquamist doesn't supply a tank
5. Aquamist can be triggered by IDC or OE MAP sensor signal. Coolingmist uses a mechanical pressure switch.
6. Aquamist uses an inline solenoid valve. Coolingmist uses a checkvalve.
7. Aquamist comes with three jets compared to Coolingmist's two.
8. Aquamist comes with the following, Coolingmist doesn't.
- Water level sensor
- 100 micron stainless inline filter
- Turbine based flow monitoring system with three failsafe outputs
- 52 mm Dash gauge with system on/off button
- Universal tank adaptor
- 1/8NPT Water jet adaptor with blanking plugs.
- Inline fuse holder with 15A fuse
- Universal tank adapor

Coolingmist: $350, Aquamist: $645. (MRRP)

The difference of $295 is for all the components on item#8. If you want to guard against a water system power failure, clogged nozzle or cut pipe, go for the aquamist.

HFS-1 user manual: http://www.aquamist.co.uk/V10/HFS-1-v10w.pdf (technical reference)

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gall.../HFS-1w-ss.jpg

I did some research and confirmed that maps can be switched on the fly using the AUX input.

Now then, how does the Aquamist get the data it needs (from my ECU...or another sensor) for knowing when to inject water/meth?

We have got over the difficult part. It is so nice to be able to do map switch "on the fly".

Here is what we need:

1. Haltech sends a PWM signal to the HFS-6's IDC input. (Anything between 12% to 100% DC)
2. Set the HFS-6 to the minimum triggering point (12%)
3. Lets say the haltech 's W/A map ranges between 15% to 80%
4. As soon as the Haltech sends out DC% greater than 12% the HFS-6 will start looking for flow.
5. If flow is not detected or confirmed within a preset period, the HFS-6 will send a signal to Haltech's AUX input and asks it to switch to a safer map (or reduce boost at the same time)
6. After a second preset period, if the flow is still absent, it will repeat the same cycle again.

I follow you until here:

By "W/A" I'm assuming you're referring to "water/alcohol" -- now where does this map come from and where is it stored? On the HFS-6? I'm probably missing something very simple here. Probably a tenant of AI that I'm missing, so I sound like a fool!

If only I had gotten in on that early '09 HFS-6 group buy! I keep looking for current ones.

Thanks again Richard. Invaluable information! Seriously. I'm sure this is answering some questions other members have as well.

W/A = water/methanol. You were correct

The W/A map has to be made in the Haltech, H6 just does what it is instructed. If this is not possible, then just use the fuel map.

Almost all H6 tracks the fuel map because it is simple. This negates the necessity of re-doing the WI map everytime you change the fuel map. The H6 can rescale the OE's fuel map anyway.

For the next GB, you have to wait for the HFS-7.

Following the fuel map seems like the logical thing to do -- so I'm guessing there is some method for the system to "read" the Haltech's fuel map?

Any details on the HFS-7 GB yet? I might as well get my name on the list!

very nice post Richard. thanks. i suggest you post it in the main AI thread in the 3rd Gen section where it will be welcomed.

howard

link: https://www.rx7club.com/3rd-generation-specific-1993-2002-16/making-case-rotary-powered-fd-fix-806104/

The HFS-6 reads the "pulse" side of the fuel injector and converts to a user scalable variable to control the water/methanol flow.

It will take the signal from anyone of the Haltech's injector control pin. That is all you need to do.

HFS-7 is long way away, we have no plans to replace the HFS-6 just yet. I think it will be at least two to three years.

Excellent -- that's an easy enough explanation for me to understand.

Well I will scour for HFS-6 group buys in the meantime. I still have some weeks before my FB will be ready for AI. Thank you so much for taking the time to answer my (asinine) questions!

Sorry to be a bit too complicated, I though you were going to run a separate W/A map, independent of the fuel map.

There is no hurry, we are not make the H6 fast enough for the demand at present. There are a few RX7 GB purchases. Perhaps it would be faster to post to the "wanted" forum, some may decided to sell it.

The HFS-5 is not a bad system, I am sure there are a few NIB out there.

Howard,

I will do my best to post there. It is a very busy thread. You are doing a great job informing people how effective AI injection can be.

I would like to do whatever is optimal for my setup, so if that means that running a *separate* W/A map is required, I will do what is necessary to handle that. I don't plan on tuning the car myself though! I will put it in the hands of Steve Kan or Jesus Padilla, whoever is closest to me in Georgia when I'm ready for it.

Would you recommend running an independent W/A map, and if so, how does one accomplish this? With a separate programmable controller that's not in the HFS-5/6 kit? It seems like the simplest setup is for the W/A system to use the fuel map from the Haltech, but that's from my pea-sized brain so I could be very wrong!

.
"Being optimal" often means having an ideal fuel and ignition map. Sensors such as air, knock and lambda etc are used to further trimming the above under "less than" optimum operating environments.

Introducing another variable such as WA injection into your engine will affect the carefully balanced setup. In most cases, if the WA is not injected in excess or closely pegged to the power curve, you don't need a "too radical" remapping to your fuel and ignition maps. A minor fuel map change will ensure AFR is consistent through out the operating range.

If the WA injection does not vaguely resembles the fuel flow, system such as single point (all on/all off) or PPS system (limited dynamic range), you then need quite a radical remap especially you use quite large jets. In the event of a W/AI failure, you will not be able to drive you car safely under medium to high load.

The same scenario will apply if you decided to create you own WAI map (within the Haltech, via a 5th injector channel). I known that you might be able to get more out of the WAI system but inconvenient if the system breaks down. On the other hand, a "mirror" to fuel flow is less of a problem should the system breaks down. You just reduce the boost pressure and continue to run the car with very little risk of engine damage.

I am sorry to make my explanation so long but if it helps you to pick a system wisely. All forms of WAI system works and will give great performance gains. But only the a few can give you the convenience similar to a "lack of octane" situation if the system fails, the Aquamist HFS-6 is one of those.

.

Your explanations are extremely helpful!

What I gather is...ASSuming the ignition and fuel maps are decent, an AI system that utilizes the fuel map is safe and efficient and may or may not require adjustments to allow for AI.

I would rather have support for system failure than introduce a variable that could spell the end for my motor.

I'm on the lookout for an HFS-6...

Thank you!

HFS-5 will be just as good - I am sure you will be able to pick up a pre-owned one for around $600 to $650. Quite a few of them are entering the market place as the HFS-5 is not upgrade-able to HFS-6.

I know you asked the other company if they have a kit comparable to our basic trunkmount kit. It was obvious to me you were not looking for a super complex kit. I want to make some clarifications, because it is misleading for aquamist to compare a $700 + kit to our basic kit and marvel at the great deal you get for just 350+ more. If you were looking for something with comparable hardware to what they posted here is our response. I think this is more accurate and in no way attempts to dis-respect the other company.

We can offer our CMGS stage 1 + smart controller + flow sensor without a tank for about $650. Lets go into detail to compare to the aquamist offering.

At first glance at the kit you mentioned is almost half the price of the aquamist's comparable system. (HFS-1). If you look a bit closer, you will find out why.

Similarity:
Both kit manufacturers have "MIST" in the name.
Pressure is about the same (150- 160 psi)
these kits do not come with a tank.
Both have Turbine based flow monitoring system
Both 52 mm Dash gauge with system on/off ability
Universal tank adaptor
Inline fuse holder with 15A fuse (coolingmist offering is integrated into gauge)


Difference:
4. Coolingmist offers tank choices including our custom engineered exclusive trunkmount tank. This is our own design.


5. Aquamist can be triggered by IDC or OE MAP sensor signal. Coolingmist can be triggered by RPM, Boost, MAP, MAF (not applicatable on the Rx-7). Coolingmist can read boost directly. You can also do cell by cell programming using our GRID setup with 2 or more inputs:

http://www.coolingmist.com/images/rpmmap.jpg


6. Coolingmist will increase flow with more signal (Aquamist is on/off)

7. coolingmist gives you the option of a solenoid activation or checkvalve. Aquamist will only give you a choice of soleloid.

8. Aquamist comes with three jets compared to Coolingmist's single jet sized for your vehicle (controller is fully adjustable).

9. Aquamist has only 3 failsafe outputs. Coolingmist has 5.

10. Coolingmist has superior failsafe ability. Aquamist failsafe is more basic, coolingmist is fully programmable and can use many conditions. For someone who is not technical, you may want to go with the Aquamist offering.

11. Aquamist comes with the following, Coolingmist doesn't.
- Water level sensor. (optional with coolingmist)
- 100 micron stainless inline filter (optional with coolingmist)
- 1/8NPT Water jet adaptor with blanking plugs.


Coolingmist: $650, Aquamist: $645. (MRRP)

The pricing is similar. If you want a superior failsafe and progressive controller choose coolingmist. If you want a basic failsafe that is more plug and play and a fixed rate (on / off) feel free to look further into the other offering.


Smart controller reference

http://www.coolingmist.com/instructi...ntechguide.pdf

David why is it you get banned every where you go? And why are you constantly trying to “defend” your products?

If you want to compare “cell by cell” systems then you should compare your product to the OLD as DIRT 2s system by Aquamist. Just remember the 2s system was out before you even started cooling mist. Aquamist is an ORIGINATOR they have more experance at this then virtually ANY ONE ELSE.

Cell by Cell type mapping is old technology/methodology. It is most CERTANLY NOT BEGINER FRIENDLY. Though for a knowledgeable user it is definitely more versatile.

In my opinion/experience injecting by virtue of IDC is the best compromise between User definability / System versatility / Ease of use, particularly for those users that use AI as a safety system VRS those that use it to augment power. Any other bells and whistles are just pitfalls that new users can and do goof up, which normally cost them an engine rebuild or worse. IDC is more than adequate, easy to use (READ less likely to screw it up) and versatile enough for the average user/setup.

Once a person learns enough and begins to recognize the inherent limitations of an IDC based system. There are a whole plethora of more advanced systems out there to upgrade to. But up until that point, an IDC based system is the (DARE I SAY) the perfect compromise for the average user. (IE first time buyer)

There is another topic I want to touch on – Reputation. Almost without exception EVERY SINGLE AI manufacture has an impeccable reputation. EXCEPT coolingmist. Coolingmist has a long history of shady conduct. Example--http://forums.evolutionm.net/water-a...fo-please.html

Please read that thread and decide for your self if coolingmist was forthright and honest…………..

Finally in a bid to be as forthright as I can be, I must acknowledge that coolingmist does have a significant advantage in one area. That is user documentation. But one must understand that Richard is an engineer, and he’s been doing this for so long that he doesn’t think like the average user does. And as a result the documentation that comes with Aquamist systems is not beginner friendly. But since Richard is a forum whore like the rest of us you can simply ask him and get an answer from the “horse’s mouth” as it were.

Im pretty much going to go with the coolingmist trunkmount system for now, My setup isnt fancy, Im not pushing extreme numbers, im not planning on tunning for the water/meth injection so if it runs out I want hurt the engine. For now, the basic trunkmount is all I need. Once its plugged in Im barley expecting to push 320 hp on a conservitive tune. So for now, not that big of a deal. Down the road I might have to look into the more advanced systems.....

As a side note I’ve recently learned of a brand spanking new technology that will revolutionize AI injection. Unless I miss my mark I would lay dollars to bones that Richard has heard of it, and they are exploring how to use this tech and still hit the necessary price point. Once that’s done the new tech will lay waste to all the current/older systems. Save your nickels and dimes boys……….It will be worth it.