Is running NON-INTERCOOLED an option ?
 

Has anyone tried running non-intercooler with Meth-Injection ?

I found this cat who pulled his intercooler off and is running Methanol Injection with good results (It seems).

What's everyone think ?

Here is a thread about his car.

http://www.performanceforums.com/for...php?t=67187143

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a1...y/DSCN0973.jpg

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a1...y/DSCN0970.jpg

I will let you know in a few weeks. I have the Aquamist HFS-5 with water/methanol injection precompressor and right before the throttle body. I was seeing such high intake temps precompressor with the intercooler on there, with a lack of flow through the radiator (that the SMIC promotes), that I decided it best to just see what non-intercooled (or chemically intercooled) would do. I will have a completely ducted, verticle radiator with no obstructions to the front or back. Along with this a cold air intake for the compressor inlet that pulls air from in front of the radiator. I will see AT LEAST A 60 degree F improvement in air coming into the compressor...if not below ambient with the precompressor water/alcohol injection (I am running a 50/50 mix). The pre throttle body jet should take care of the heat.

Preliminary testing revealed 3 degrees C above ambient intake temps without the intercooler and dual jet water/alcohol injection. I bet we can improve on that... :)

I figure we can solve the cooling issues of the car and get better boost response without taxing the turbo as much...win/win/win...we will see how the intake temps sort out.

It will be fun! Stay tuned....

I am going to repost this in the single turbo section...it will get more traffic there. The content is very interesting to me, so I kinda want to hear what people think.

i like what your doing with that inj kit.
Very nice results. It definetly is a win/win... except having to fill up yet another fluid

I'll be following suit with mine...
just sold my large v-mount set up...

Awesome, go ahead and re-post it. I'm going to sell my intercooler as well and run my setup like the picture above.

Im looking to do this too. Anyone have info on best nozzle placement? Any other tips for non-intercooled?

This setup ran denatured alky/water @ 50/50 mix.

Car was loads of fun to drive, hauled ass. No pre-turbo injection, just pre TB.

Ran an aquamist HFS 5.... Single M15 equivalent nozzle.

BTW, its a stock S4 turbo @ 12psi - so you know that intake temps were far from cool to begin with :) Only downfall was we ran a distributor and a simple SDS fuel management for the extra fuel......................so no logging of actual intake temps :(

That's a pretty cool little setup there. I'm running a semi-large frame turbo so I'm not sure if this would be ideal for me. I'm looking to put down over 600 to the pavement with pump/injection so I might just need a intercooler.

I've done alot of searching here and ausrotary but can't find any "real" results.

I think it'll work fine on a large turbo setup, it just needs to be scaled up accordingly. But yeah, real world examples might be few and far between on a big number setup, save for a few big drag cars. I see alot of setups like this on boinger drag vechiles however (chemical intercooling only)

just a few thoughts...

it depends alot on how you plan to use the car. often people underestimate the amount of heat rejection from the IC just driving around.... it works all the time. this is a plus for the IC'd motor. 24/7

a comment above related to improving water temps w the removal of the FMIC. i know there have been millions of pages re FMIC V SMIC but if you run your IC in the stock position you can have it all. heat rejection thru the IC and cool water temps.

finally, as to alcohol, i am sure you probably know that drag guys running straight meth generally don't run ICs (drag only cars). at the end of a run you wouldn't want to put your hand on the UIM or it could get FROZEN to the aluminum.

for me, running 75% pump and 25% meth, after a dyno run my UIM is COLD.

hc

three rotor in a first gen with 7-8 inch wide rims in rear.......that guy is mentally ill. I love it.

The car is going to be a weekend driver but I'll also run local 10.5 events as well.


The one thing I worry about is the intake temps when I'm just putting around town. I'm sure they'll be sky high until I hit the loud pedal.


Right, I know straight alcohol guys run without intercoolers. I've just seen some guys on www.turbomustangs.com make big power with meth injection/pump gas without a intercooler. But, since those are completely different animals.......... we can't really compare the two. :confused:

Intercooled or not, I'm going to run meth injection.


Why aren't you guys running straight meth injection ?

This simply isn't true. The duct for the SMIC blocks flow through nearly half of the back of the radiator. Whether you put something directly in front of or directly behind, it is still impeeding flow. In my car with the duct removed there is a SUBSTANTIAL difference in engine cooling, and this is probably so dramatically noticeable to me because ambient temps in my area consistently exceed 110F.

If you are just putting around in vacuum why would you have sky high intake temps? The act of a turbocharger's compression is what generates heat, if it isn't creating positive pressure then there is no 'substantial' increase in heat. With the intercooler removed we have more options for intake placement and so we can get very cool ambient temp air to the filter dramatically decreasing pre-compressor temps (vs. the standard filter mounted to the compressor housing, sucking off the back of the radiator we see all the time.) My car has seen a REDUCTION in vacuum IAT ... when boost reaches 2-3PSI the W/A has started spraying somewhat (tied into injector duty cycle) and IAT remains constant as boost build ultimately reducing considerably when peak boost is reached.

Well, see there you go. I was wrong by saying "Sky High Temps". I simply don't know since I haven't tried this.

From your results, it seems like this would work. Don't remember if I asked you before but, what were your intake temps at lets say 8 psi and 15 psi ?

Also, a question for everyone. Why couldn't one run 50% Meth/50% Pump Gas instead of the common 20/80 mix ?

I see no reason not to run a 50/50 mix...as long as you have enough pump and enough nozzle to allow it. Tuning in a transition will be far different from a smaller mix since the meth will come on earlier and be a much higher volume in that case however. But still definetly doable IMO.

You're going to get better cooling with more meth, so go for it.

So, with a 50 Meth/50 Pump Gas combo, would that make your motor run too fat ? Or, would you just need to run a ridiculous ignition system to fire that much meth ?

I wouldn't say it would run fat, its just that you'd need to trim back your fuel even further then with a 80/20 mix in order to achieve the ideal mix. Your fuel maps will bascially be inverted to what you've got now under boost :). The meth would be making up for the areas you remove from the map.......Meth will still burn with a similar (enough) AFR to gasoline, so no big surprises there either.

I'd say for sure at that high a power level you're going to want a beefy ignition, especially with a high meth concentration.

So, I should still shoot for the normal pump gas AFR's with 50% Meth/50% Pump Fuel ?

Since I'll be spraying more methanol than usuall, would it be a good idea to mount the nozzles at an angle so that it doesn't pool in the pipe ?

One more question, based on the picture I posted above. Where would be the ideal place to mount the nozzles ?

Thanks for the replies, it's nice to have someone who's willing to have a conversation with me about this :)

Whatever you do, don't make a post on www.ausrotary.com or you'll be attacked for being an american.

http://www.ausrotary.com/viewtopic.php?t=138645

What controller are you all using for the AI flow curve? Is it pretty simple to get an accurate 20% mix of alcohol to gasoline? I ordered a Vari-Cool trunk mount under the impression that it is tuneable like fuel injection.

Also, is it essential to have EGT with the AI or should I just tune to normal AFR's replacing the 20% (assuming timing is not advanced too much boosting 24 lbs).

As far as nozzle placement, I've seen people put the nozzles close to or far away from the throttle body. As long as the fuel atomizes you are fine. Even port injection is fine. It is generally accepted to post after the intercooler if you are using one to prevent pooling.

Josh

I don't remember who it was(BC maybe?), but somebody did a good writeup on how a wideband works. Basically the wideband reads in lambda, when lambda=1, mixture is stoich, no matter the fuel. That being said the software in the gauge knows that if lambda=1 and it thinks the fuel is gasoline (14.7:1 stoich) then if lambda=1 must =14.7:1 ratio. If it were programmed for ethanol(9.0:1 stoich) then if lambda=1 the gauge will show 9.0:1 ratios, even if gasoline is used and running stoichiometric for gasoline.

At least IIRC that was the explanation. lol:scared:

did that guy ever say why his motor blew? he mentions something about how he shouldn't have "re-invented the wheel". to me it sounds like he is referring to the no intercooler setup possibly.

i personally run water injection and was thinking of not using an intercooler but for a car that sees the street a lot i just don't know if that's a safe enough route.

It blew because the e-shaft broke...that is what I gathered from reading the thread. I dont believe it was detonation (or water injection related).

These are his words, "It turned out to be the keyway shearing between the 2 part eccentric shaft."

That guy is nuts though... here is the turbo he was running (on the right) compared to a GT45R (the little guy on the left)...

http://www.we-todd-did-racing.com/th...w/DSCN1219.JPG

You are dismissing Howard's experience and wisdom in exchange for popular convention.

My small intercooler engine can be heat-soaked at 65º C and return to mid 30’s in about a mile using 50/50 water/ meth. It cruises high 30’s normally (about 5 degrees over ambient).

Most people give up about 50º C intake air by not having a cold air intake. They then expect their intercooler to correct this loss while sharing heat rejection duties with their radiators.
Barry

this is a pretty good thread... lots of good questions and contributions.

given the FD is a rolling oven i personally would go w a SMIC and AI. (AI being Auxiliary Injection which covers both water and alcohol....you take your pick).

i believe that there are many times that the IC removes heat from the motor in addition to under boost. Barry mentions how quickly his IAT returns to ambient, or thereabouts, after a run. IC are near magic. my ASP large takes 130 degrees out of the intake charge. every degree removed from the intake tract is a positive.

ICs are somewhat misunderstood however in that there heat disposal comes not as much from airspeed thru the radiator rather the massive amount of surface area and radiation. area would primarily refer to each fin's total surface area. can you imagine how large the total area of all the fins is on an IC?

at 60 mph the airspeed thru my ASP large IC is between 1.5 and 3 mph. with my louvers it doubled to 5-6 mph. IAT dropped 7% w louvers.

as to Cosmo's point about the IC duct taking air from the radiator.... sure. we all know about the mazda studies. in my earlier post perhaps i wasn't clear. i wasn't trying to say there would be no diff if you removed the IC duct. i was saying that w re to the radiator it would be better for coolant temps to run a SMIC V a FMIC.

i completely agree that sucking eng compartment air is totally evil. especially under boost where the IC is throwing off so many BTUs into the engine compartment. i see so many engine compartments w a huge turbo w either no filter (?) on it or a filter attached to the turbo which will be sucking hot air. job 1 is get outside air into your turbo. you can run a SMIC and get outside air w a bit of engineering. win win.

BTW, like Vtec, the 1st gen w the 20B.... the first thing i noticed was the tires. there's nothing like doing all that work and running 300 rwhp tires. of course he may just run it on the strip and bolt on more rubber or it may just be a work in progress.

back to the no intercooler subject...

first off:
hp is all about packing maximum density into your combustion chamber. the cooler your intake charge is the more oxygen molecules you will be able to burn. ICs do a fabulous job.

so does any form of AI.

can you get alot of cooling w just AI? sure. can you get more cooling, more density, more oxygen w the addition of another 130 degrees of cooling w an IC? absolutely.

heat is a big deal in making hp, especially the rotary. i listen to anyone from Arizona when they talk about heat. it will be interesting to see how Cosmo fares running just AI.

the thread has raised a few other questions.

nozzle placement & sizing.
the AI section is designed w a number of stickied threads to assist you...

nozzle sizing (both water and alcohol) is covered here:
AI Nozzle/jet/delivery sizing
https://www.rx7club.com/auxiliary-injection-173/ai-nozzle-jet-delivery-sizing-587197/

optimised component location here:
https://www.rx7club.com/auxiliary-injection-173/optimized-ai-alcohol-system-component-location-fd-586925/

pictures here:
https://www.rx7club.com/auxiliary-injection-173/pictures-my-alkycontrol-ai-system-install-593216/
don't miss post 5.

as to the question of water/alcohol/or a mix.... each option has plusses and minuses. the AI section is agnostic. all 3 options work very well.

discussions re which is best degenerate quickly into the ranchers and the sheepherders.

my advice is to decide exactly what your objectives are as to vehicle usage, talk to people using AI for your purposes and make your own decision.

i run 100% methanol w pump gas and it works for me. 100% water works for others.

the single irrefutable fact is that running no AI is THE single wrong decision.

whether it is 20+ psi with no knock on 93 octane or cooling your motor as you flog it around Road America's 4 mile laps AI delivers.

howard coleman

Yep

The nozzles spray in a 180* pattern, so regardless of the angle, its hosing the fluid into the tract. For example, if you placed the nozzle at the top/middle of the trhottle body elbow it would spray towards the throttle body, directly downwards from the nozzle, and away from the throttle body (and everywhere in between those points)

Actually......snowperformance has a shot of a nozzle being tested prior to install. It should give you a good idea of the spray pattern. (thier site is down right now or I'd link you)

I wouldn't worry about it pooling. There should be lots of airflow to scavenge the meth out of there :)

I would think that for that power level to achieve a 50/50 mix, you're probably going to be running 4 nozzles at the minimum. I would place two near the front (closest to engine....similar to Howard's pair) of the TB elbow, and two more just post turbo to fight the heat where its made....of course, at that point you may consider pre-turbo injection and have the 3rd nozzle be pre turbo, and the fourth just post.

50% pump.... the balance methanol

methanol has significantly less energy in it per volume compared to gasoline.

that's why 100% meth drag cars have such huge fuel systems.

that's particularly not a big negative as you just inject more volume. you gain the advantage of higher octane and:

auto ignition temp of gasoline including racegas is 660F
auto ignition temp of alcohol 858F.

if you remove 50% of base fuel (gasoline) you have to add almost 2X alcohol.

so doing your typical 850/1600 setup.. total delivery at 100% is 4900CC/min.

take 50% out... you're at 2450 CC gas. you'll need around 4000 CC/Min of alcohol. that would be 6 M10 nozzles. that would be 3 pumps each drawing up to 10 amps.

that would be a major tuning issue. if it were done you'd have huge hp and cooling potential along w major engineering issues.

i suggest you do what i have done which is run two M10s and deliver 1260 CC/Min. the last dyno run i did at 5800 rpm and 16 psi boost i made 364 ft pounds of torque. knock was 1!!. egts were 1150 F pre turbo!

i had an unrelated back pressure problem which should be fixed friday when i get my turbos back w larger turbines.

and also, i agree w classicauto w re to AFR tuning.... tune to normal numbers.

hc

The heat coming out of the IC pales in comparison to that from the radiator.

I'll be running a aftermarket radiator and will arrange everything so that nothing sits in front of the turbo. I'll also fab up ducting to bring in air in front of the compressor.

Howard, thanks for the informative replies. I think that I’m going to give the non-intercooled experiment a try. I have a feeling that I might be able to pull this off since my engine bay is very empty of "Hot Parts" and since I'll have ducting coming from the front of the car to help turbo inlet temps.

These pumps that you’re using, will they only support two nozzles ? Are the M10’s the biggest the pump will handle ?

What type of power are you hoping/trying for with your setup on pump gas/meth ?

i suggest you call Julio at Alkycontrol. he is one of the best "service" people i have dealt with. he is an electrical engineer and a racer.... running his 3850 pound 231 cu inch turbo'd buick v6 on 93 pump and alcohol into the low 10s at 143.

i run his system and it is plug and play.

the key is he can answer your questions. fl 727-526-9724

howard

Thanks for the info guys.

Has anybody run the setup both ways? I'm interested in seeing the IAT out of boost with and without an intercooler. I have a smaller spearco installed right now with nitrous in the location most spray meth/water at. I'd like to run the most direct path to the intake as possible, but if that will make the car run hot out of boost, it wouldn't be worth it to me. A topmount would be OK if I were on a stock engine, but the 13BRE wouldn't accomodate it too well. ;)

Josh

My setup is VERY FAR from popular convention.

I simply misunderstood what Howard was saying. I read (in my head) that an SMIC with duct didn't sacrifice engine cooling. What Howard wrote was that it sacrificed engine cooling less than an FMIC. I agree with that...

My point isn't that the duct takes air from the radiator. My point is that the intercooler duct blocks flow through the back of the radiator. All the air that enters the front has to leave somehow and the duct sitting directly over the half of each fan on the back of the radiator has a way of impeding flow.

Case in point.

My car in 107F ambient temps with a PFS stock mount intercooler would see 60C intake temps when at a steady state cruise (80ish MPH) on our freeway for 15+ minutes straight. My coolant temps would be near 100C in this same situation with the AC on. With the AC off the coolant temp would be around 97C. With the new mounting position of the radiator and the intercooler and duct removed, my car does not see above 87C coolant temps as noted in the same exact scenario on a hotter day 110F. Only thing that changed was the intecooler and duct was removed. Radiator was in the same position as stock with the same stock ducting. Oil temps came down 12C from about 100C to around 88C

Since the intercooler is gone we can more efficiently mount the radiator and this cools the engine even better. I will have more data as I get more miles. I just wanted to share. I think what I was saying was a little misunderstood. I dont think anyone can argue that the duct to the intercooler blocks the back of the radiator.

Barry Bordes:
I had almost an identical setup to you when I was running intercooled. The reason why your heat soaked intake temps come down so fast is because of the AI not the intecooler.

Without AI my intecooler on hot days would heat soak to the point where I was seeing near 80C intake temps while sitting in traffic (105-110F ambient). The filter was heat shielded as best I could, but it just wasn't possible to pull cool air.

With the radiator moved I can now have a true COLD AIR intake. When sitting in traffic my IAT is about 8C over ambient... about 50C, with no intercooler. As the boost builds the AI kicks in and my IAT goes below ambient. At 15psi during a 43C day my IAT got to 32C. Precompressor water/meth is amazing at reducing IAT. The methanol in my mix takes the heat out of the intake charge like an intercooler would, and the water is my detonation surpressant. I have the best of both worlds. A very small precompressor jet with great atomization and a much larger jet aimed right at the throttle body. I have about 700cc/min of total possible flow through my two nozzles.

Steve Kan raised a good point that I am relying on it not to fail, but with the Aquamist failsafe and DDS3 gauge I feel like I am somewhat protected and well informed of flow. If a line leaks or my pump reduces pressure, I know, if my tank is low, I know. If a nozzle is clogged partially, I know... So I feel like I am as safe as I can be with the setup I have put together. If my WA fails I can still limp home in vacuum up to 2-3 psi with IAT not getting out of control.

As I get more data from driving I will continue to post.


I also wanted to say that to do this right it isn't cheap. My Aquamist setup is a little over $1000 when all is said an done, and removing the intercooler, relocating the radiator, thermostat housing, installing a cold air intake, and fabricating the proper ducting is also costing me 4 figures $. So I could easily have a decent V mount setup...

But I like new and unproven things, that is when you are really having fun!

Thanks for the conversation, I really appreciate it.

I'll be staying far away from the Ausrotary forum. I can't beleive the responses I was getting over there.

I am running a T04E 57trim turbo with a P-trim turbine and a 1.15A/R T4 exhaust housing...this goes into a 3.5" dp and 3.5" midpipe. Just so everyone knows my turbo setup. Again it is flying the face of popular convention. What we are trying to accomplish is to show people that proper sized turbines have as much impact on power as the compressor. Most on this forum oversize the compressor and undersize the turbine.

+1. You're right about this. Known about it for many years now. Unfortunately, you still won't change people's minds, even though you're right.

B

you dont need to change peoples mind, just make sure they put some moeny down on the race...

Cozmo, isn't your pre-turbo injectioon also modifiying your compressor's capability? I have a thread in this section with a link to an extremely detailed post about pre-turbo injections effects on compressor dynamics. Basically makes it act like a larger compressor due to the cooling, and the lack of compression of the liquid.

Might be getting a little off topic, but thought I would toss it out there.

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/phpBB2/vie...7db7b268de2a41

Its a good read.

I have already read that entire thread :)...and you are right, the precompressor injection does make my compressor act larger than it is. I would really like to post in there after I have some definate conclusions. There is a lot of theory in there and a lit less real world applied data collection, especially with the kit I have (HFS-5).

Pre-turbo injection, could that be somewhat harmful to the turbo if you're spraying alot? Could it possibly damage the wheel ?

Also, do you have any pictures of where you're injecting pre-turbo ?

Why wouldnt you run two fuel pumps with two different cells, and two (or 3) fuel rails? The first rail and system has pump gas, and the other two rails and system have alky? Tune it with the ECU instead of some weird "add on".

I had thought about the same thing, have a seperate fuel rail for direct port alcohol injection controlled by your ecu or an aftermarket injector controller. This way "seems" more professional than the current methods of AI.

That 20B FB you posted a pic of has a full fuel rail setup on his UIM in some of the later pics posted on the ausrotary thread. I believe they're meth also seeing as his pre-compressor meth injection comes from "real" fuel injectors as well.

I would think that with no water either, you won't have the corrosion issues so a "real" injection setup is much more feasible since special pumps/regulators/injectors aren't required.........correct?

So, technically, I could this throttlebody using 4 injectors on one side for pump gas and 4 injectors on the other side for Alcohol. Hmm.

http://eastcoastparts.com/assets/images/TB103.jpg

You must make sure you have very small droplet size (ie. good atomization), and you shouldn't flow a large amount of fluid precompressor, which is why I run two jets. A very small 0.3mm jet pre and a much larger 0.9mm jet in the elbow.

The .3mm jet has a max flow of 150cc so it isn't in any danger of damaging the compressor. If I was injecting all of my AI precompressor I might have to worry.

Cozmo, didn't mean for you to be offended by "conventional wisdom" remark, sorry.
One reason our SMIC get so hot at idle is that they become inter-heater by creating a low pressure area in the grill and high pressure area in the engine compartment so the flow reverses when stopped, regurgitating radiator air. My PFS IC drops about a degree per tenth mile after a stop.

Did you notice the line going into the air box next to the relay box? Pre-turbo 300cc nozzle in the end of a 9" K&N. Did experiments with it but not going to use it till 18 psi. You probably already know why.
Barry

Is your pre-turbo injection spraying through the filter or between the filter and turbo ?

Have you tried running the pre turbo injection by itself?

This has cross my mind before, and I plan on testing it when my FC is ready :icon_tup:

Pre Turbo Nozzle
 

Is your pre-turbo injection spraying through the filter or between the filter and turbo ?

Through the closed end of the filter. See attached.

Do you think you're getting better results from spraying directly at the turbo (Head On) instead of spraying from the side like the picture below ?

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a1...y/DSCN2035.jpg