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BoostCrzy's youtube video of the dyno is very nice but doesn't show the exact boost level for the stock vs aftermarket setups. With a Haltech I'm sure he could have set it the same if he wanted to. (edit, just read his post again, and he said the boost was the same in both the before & after pulls)
With no tuning changes, it is unlikely that the boost remained the same with a free flowing intake, even if tuned for 14 psi. The video doesnt address this question. He can answer that better than we can.
...I love my KS Super - U. Works perfectly with stock battery and the Auto-Exe intake.
What kind of air filter is inside that intake? A K&N cone-shaped filter, or what? What K&N (or other) part # is it? I'm wondering how much filtering area it has.
Something that wasn't been mentioned above is that from a layout standpoint the over/under tank setup begins to get pretty stupid with a wider than stock intercooler.
Look at that CX-Racing IC... It's all end-tank! If you make it wider you have to widen the end tanks along with the core.
That knightsports IC on the other hand is a work of art and breaks the mold in a number of ways.
If you maintain top and bottom end tanks and then widen the intercooler core, you don't gain as much heat exchanging volume than if you had moved the end-tanks to the sides.
New piping is a small price to pay for space optimization in our ridiculously cramped engine bays. I recently told a machinist/fabricator friend I was installing a bigger intercooler in the 7 this winter and the first thing he said was "WHERE?!" We are the under-dogs and don't have the luxury of making idiotic decisions like some of these mustang and corvette owners.
The old school RE-A was similar size to the Greddy however has vastly superior end tank design. Only problem for both is there is no perfect bolt in duct available.
Something that wasn't been mentioned above is that from a layout standpoint the over/under tank setup begins to get pretty stupid with a wider than stock intercooler.
Look at that CX-Racing IC... It's all end-tank! If you make it wider you have to widen the end tanks along with the core.
That knightsports IC on the other hand is a work of art and breaks the mold in a number of ways.
If you maintain top and bottom end tanks and then widen the intercooler core, you don't gain as much heat exchanging volume than if you had moved the end-tanks to the sides
.
Hard to tell from angles displayed, but the RE IC below has beveled end tanks at both ends, CX racing only at one end, (the nicer looking CX beveled end, vs box end, is also on the bottom for reasons that escape me ?)
not defending either of these over Knight Sports design, as any innovative design changes are always welcome by me. I'm not so sure net end tank volume as a ratio to cooling surfaces is markedly different for KS vs RE design ?
Knight Sports also sell this carbon fiber CAI that retails for about $700, which some owners purchase with their U bend IC.
No idea if they are designed to work together though. No side x side pics or literature found so far.
.
Hard to tell from angles displayed, but the RE IC below has beveled end tanks at both ends, CX racing only at one end, (the nicer looking CX beveled end, vs box end, is also on the bottom for reasons that escape me ?)
not defending either of these over Knight Sports design, as any innovative design changes are always welcome by me. I'm not so sure net end tank volume as a ratio to cooling surfaces is markedly different for KS vs RE design ?
Knight Sports also sell this carbon fiber CAI that retails for about $700, which some owners purchase with their U bend IC.
No idea if they are designed to work together though. No side x side pics or literature found so far.
That silly RE Amemiya IC is just two stock intercoolers cut up with longer end tanks welded to them. It appears to be 1.5 times the core volume of stock. About equivalent top the CX but with higher quality fins from an OE core. Again, total waste of space because all that tank volume could have been used for more core if the inlet, outlet, and tanks were moved to the sides like the M2, Pettit, or PFS.
I know there was a test recently of the U-groove IC, it does provide a substantial improvement on the stock IC. Big advantage is being able to use stock battery and air box, drop in and go.
I wonder how much the stock IC can be improved with just better ducting? Getting it more fresh air and getting rid of the airbox pulling air from the duct.
I dont know if I can help with your last statement Dale. My car has aluminum ducting between the bumper and radiator/ic, along with an aluminum duct/scoop going straight to the ic. It also has the factory airbox removed and the holes blocked off. Factory radiator, ic and twins. It runs very cool. Feel free if you have any specific questions, ill be ripping it out for a hks v mount when i get around to it.
I know there was a test recently of the U-groove IC, it does provide a substantial improvement on the stock IC. Big advantage is being able to use stock battery and air box, drop in and go.
I wonder how much the stock IC can be improved with just better ducting? Getting it more fresh air and getting rid of the airbox pulling air from the duct.
Dale
On the stock IC I found a dramatic improvement in temps by sealing off the IC ducting from the intake, battery, and receiver/dryer. I also extended the duct further into the bumper opening. Night and day difference under every driving condition. I plan to modify my M2 duct the same way and extend it into the bumper opening by riveting on some heat formable plastic sheet.
I believe that a SMIC, while not ideal, can be made to act like a poor man's v-mount with well thought out ducting. I'm going this path because my SCCA class doesn't allow radiator relocation.
Better ducting definitely will help, but again from my testing, 58% efficiency is still poor as compared to other aftermarket SMIC's in the 80-90% range.
Mike
Absolutely agree. Like I said, the stocker barely did the job at 10 PSI with a bunch of duct work and ramming air through it. I was referring to a well designed aftermarket SMIC (like the KS) when I made the poor man's v-mount statement.
Very true. That's why I decided to use the KS-like Australian U-type intercooler on my recent rebuild. A little bigger even than the KS and still fits with stock-mount battery and if you desire, stock airbox(I use the Autoexe). Almost 4X the surface area of the stock IC.
Mike
One thing I noticed about the AUS U-type is it had lower fin/tube density than the latest (type3?) KS U-type. The AUS unit is mfg by Hypertune, which is a well respected company that does quality fab.
The old school RE-A was similar size to the Greddy however has vastly superior end tank design. Only problem for both is there is no perfect bolt in duct available.
Glad you brought this up as I'm evaluating both the RE and KS. From my understanding, the RE retains the factory ducting and is simply a direct replacement for the factory intercooler (this one, at least). The KS seems to be the best one available, but I don't believe it will fit with the stock intake which would be a dealbreaker. :/
I found this link relating to intercooler design, that may help some members
choose a brand.
U-bend design and FD specific standard mount setups are not discussed,
but the article is otherwise reasonably unbiased in detailing strengths + weaknesses
of various IC design choices. https://www.mishimoto.com/engineerin...n/#Intercooler
You're welcome !
It would be less of a minefield if intercooler manufacturers would post pressure drops and cooling efficiency for their products.
In the absence of this, it makes sense to buy from manufacturers that do.
Treadstone Performance Intercoolers hasn't been mentioned yet.
I know they only produce a FMIC for the FD, but it might be possible to piece together a budget minded SMIC
using their cores and cast aluminum end tanks ?
Last edited by Blk 93; 01-07-19 at 07:36 PM.
Reason: typo
I found this link relating to intercooler design, that may help some members
choose a brand.
This is an excellent nontechnical article for explaining the differences of commercially available aftermarket automotive intercoolers. However, as a mechanical engineer with over 30 years of power systems design and 8 years direct experience in intercooler design I did notice one error commonly made by most designers, even today. Their implication that anodizing has no effect on air to air intercooler efficiency is incorrect. I can say that I made a very good living correcting poor preforming air to air heat transfer systems by eliminating the anodizing specification from the design. For those with a technical bent, here is the original 1987 article on the research project that I was involved with that first published the problems with using anodizing on heat transfer surfaces. Although I must say, adding anodization to the numerous compromises and just bad design that most aftermarket intercooler systems contain, anodization probably is one of the least of your worries.
Thanks mdp, I imagine any aluminum IC coating is going to reduce heat exchange efficiency to a degree,
just a question of how much, and is the trade off for longer IC life worth it.
Just a guess here, but because ferrous anodizing needs to be thick, and likely sealed afterwards, due to porosity ,
to effectively inhibit corrosion, perhaps ultra thin powder coating (a few thousanths thick) would be a better choice for IC applications ?
even though powder coat plastics used probably have more heat insulating qualities than ferrous metal anodizing alone ?
I wonder if pre-coating ends tanks only is worthwhile.
I had my new U-type IC coated with ceramic dispersant, which increases the heat transfer despite being coated. The coating actually contains small solid particles that increases the surface area and thereby increase heat transfer. The change was not a lot but it did increase my IC efficiency by about 2-3% per my testing. Better transfer and coated to stop corrosion, good outcome.
Mike
I had my new U-type IC coated with ceramic dispersant, which increases the heat transfer despite being coated. The coating actually contains small solid particles that increases the surface area and thereby increase heat transfer. The change was not a lot but it did increase my IC efficiency by about 2-3% per my testing. Better transfer and coated to stop corrosion, good outcome.
Mike
You are running the "FD Specialist" U-type? How do you like it and how much power are you running?
I am one of them OEM purists but still want some power, and was thinking about making a custom one based on the austrailian U-type design.
Yes Zepticon, the FD Specialist U-type. I like it a lot, seems very well built, fits with a little adjustment and still using the upper stock mounting bracket and mounts good to the lower stock cross bar. I did trim some of the supplied air box at the bumper in order to move the IC back about 1.5" in order to fit two Spal 300cfm puller fans on the front of the IC and to clear the pulleys and belts. I am just in early testing on the road and road tuning my fuel maps. Here are some early findings that reflect the IC efficiency and all the thermal management things I did with respect to ceramic coating all the pipes, manifolds, and turbos. The early numbers are looking good with maximum boost I am allowing at 12 psi(will eventually boost to 18-19 psi). My intake air at the stock location fast acting AIT sensor was 24-26C with outside ambient air of 18-19C on early testing runs. Even after 45 minutes I was still only 30C at the stock AIT location with regular road driving. This again is on a twin sequential FD, so that air is going through the at least partially spooling primary turbo. At WOT to 12 psi, the stock AIT location temp was only 45C maximum after a long boost run up to 145 mph. On my old setup with the Greddy SMIC, that number was 55-60C. the My underhood temp on the same day was 100-105F after popping the hood right after finishing. I was very happy with all of this.
Mike
Last edited by mikejokich; 01-09-19 at 10:35 AM.
Reason: grammar and added one thing
this is good info for side mounts as I am now looking for one BECAUSE of cxracing garbage. DO NOT BUY ANYTHING FROM THEM. had an issue with their front mount thats supposed to work with all stock items, it does not. when emailed about this was told had to relocate battery and remove AC (not happening here in Phoenix, and these are stock items its supposed to work with). so I wanted my money back. was told sure just send it back unopened and at my cost. well if it was unopened I wouldn't have know you falsely advertised a product (several brackets wernt drilled/sized properly at that). so now they are trying to charge me a 20% restocking fee on top of my cost to ship back AND have stopped returning my emails. anyways I didnt want to get off topic, just wanted everyone to know NOT TO consider cxracing in any way for any intercoolers or parts of any kind.
so on that note where can I find the blitz or knight sports side mounts? are they still readily available or will I have to keep checking the for sale section?
this is good info for side mounts as I am now looking for one BECAUSE of cxracing garbage. DO NOT BUY ANYTHING FROM THEM. had an issue with their front mount thats supposed to work with all stock items, it does not. when emailed about this was told had to relocate battery and remove AC (not happening here in Phoenix, and these are stock items its supposed to work with). so I wanted my money back. was told sure just send it back unopened and at my cost. well if it was unopened I wouldn't have know you falsely advertised a product (several brackets wernt drilled/sized properly at that). so now they are trying to charge me a 20% restocking fee on top of my cost to ship back AND have stopped returning my emails. anyways I didnt want to get off topic, just wanted everyone to know NOT TO consider cxracing in any way for any intercoolers or parts of any kind.
so on that note where can I find the blitz or knight sports side mounts? are they still readily available or will I have to keep checking the for sale section?
I don't think the Blitz one is still available new. The knight sports one is linked above in this thread and can be purchased from Japan for ~1300 USD.
As far as I know, there aren't any FMICs that don't require relocation of something. Even the CXRacing SMIC to my knowledge won't fit with both the stock intake and battery because it is wider.
12-30-18, 02:05 AM
