This is why water injection is awesome.
02-22-13, 06:39 AM
#26
Racing Rotary Since 1983
iTrader: (6)
here's a run from last friday off the spring at 15 PSI...
i now have the setup that is capable of giving me the data i want and then working the tune. it is going to answer lot of questions.
top plot is RPM.
second plot is boost off the spring
third plot is the duty cycle of the AI injectors. one is pre turbo, one is in the elbow
fourth plot is IAT measured between the turbo and intercooler and in the OE location
ECU is the Vi-PEC V88. it can run 8 fuel injectors. of course it is running 4 for the base fuel and two which are AI. the AI injectors fire once every crank revolution.
the cursor is at 7838 RPM which is the point where the IAT finally exceeds ambient. i am running a 50/50 water meth combo.
the IAT coming directly from the turbo is 237 F
the IAT at the stock location is 93 F
prior to the run at - 7 psi 2716 RPM
IAT after turbo pre-IC was 138
IAT at OE location was 88
max temps at 8534 RPM
262 F out of turbo
106 OE location
IAT are measured w an EGT thermocouple and, as such, are literally instantaneous and accurate to a degree or two.
the motor duplicated my Jan 2012 power output of 394 at 15 psi. this amazes me because we were hugely richer at average AFR of 10.9 and had 5 degrees less timing in the motor.
the big difference was last year was 100% methanol.... no water.
well, maybe that wasn't the biggest factor. it seems we were a bit off on setting AI delivery.
if you can see the details you will note that the pre turbo injector was at 52.6% injector duty and the OE location was at 151.5%!
of course anything higher than 100% is just a nominal calculation. the injector was set at 11 mS, fires once a revolution which takes 7.65 mS. 11/7.65 gets you to approx 1.5.
we were at 100% duty w the OE AI injector from 5100 RPM and up...
the pre turbo location had been dialed back V the OE located injector.
(we were primarily just testing to see that they worked)
total AI at 5219 RPM was 2143 CC/Min... yikes
total AI at 8644 RPM was 2509 CC/Min
i find it humorous that one of the primary reasons for my setup was to accurately control the delivery of AI at all points on the map and our first outing was probably further off the mark than i have ever experienced.
we were focusing on other things and overall the engine ran well. i have a Vi-PEC Knock Amplifier Kit on the way (headphones to determine knock) and will be back on the dyno as soon as it arrives.... probably March 4/5.
we will then be able to focus on trimming the AI table properly and assessing pre-turbo V post turbo AI.
this info hopefully will be of help to all.
howard
Last edited by Howard Coleman; 02-22-13 at 06:46 AM.
02-22-13, 06:48 AM
#27
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Do you think with leaning out and timing adjustments you will gain more hp at the same psi? Will this be down to the addition of water with the methanol, or the pre turbo WMI giving you a denser air through the turbo or a combination of all things?
02-22-13, 07:06 AM
#28
Racing Rotary Since 1983
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Grant, you are pretty much asking the same questions i am.
the first as to AFR and timing is pretty much answered stuff. until we get really good knock info and can tune closer to knock we won't be optimized power-wise. that will wait for my new Vi-PEC headphone system. later next week.
as to pre-turbo, post turbo...
i don't have an answer.. we have a lot of theory and some data but most is generated by the pump/nozzle system which has very little tune-ability so results no doubt are influenced by whether delivery is on the money. or not. my setup will answer these questions.
the primary theoretical advantage of pre-turbo is range extension as to turbo flow. cooler compressor = more air. so that would work best when you are really pushing the turbo which we aren't as yet.
OTOH, maybe it adds efficiency across the range.
we will see as i will be turning off one location, tuning out and then doing it w the other location.
howard
the first as to AFR and timing is pretty much answered stuff. until we get really good knock info and can tune closer to knock we won't be optimized power-wise. that will wait for my new Vi-PEC headphone system. later next week.
as to pre-turbo, post turbo...
i don't have an answer.. we have a lot of theory and some data but most is generated by the pump/nozzle system which has very little tune-ability so results no doubt are influenced by whether delivery is on the money. or not. my setup will answer these questions.
the primary theoretical advantage of pre-turbo is range extension as to turbo flow. cooler compressor = more air. so that would work best when you are really pushing the turbo which we aren't as yet.
OTOH, maybe it adds efficiency across the range.
we will see as i will be turning off one location, tuning out and then doing it w the other location.
howard
02-22-13, 09:45 AM
#29
Work in Progress
Howard, do you have results not running the water injection system? is there a noticeable difference running the same boost with/without water injection? i suppose what im getting at is the ability to advance timing a good gain? apart from saving fuel...
I just ordered a kit with the intention of pre turbo injection and pre throttle injection, the staggered method.
I just ordered a kit with the intention of pre turbo injection and pre throttle injection, the staggered method.
02-22-13, 10:12 AM
#30
my intake temps drop about 15C on a good day from 45C + to 30 C But its mostly water . windshield wiper fluid , when i get picky I make my own 50/50 using denatured alch .
I havent used the 50/50 mix so honestly I dont even know howmuch of a diff it makes compared to the 99% water from wiper fluid
I havent used the 50/50 mix so honestly I dont even know howmuch of a diff it makes compared to the 99% water from wiper fluid
02-22-13, 12:54 PM
#31
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So are you actually going to be maxing the turbos out then to see if the pre WI increases the efficiency?
i have read that the PR guys are running 50psi+ from these BW turbos?? now i wont accept that they are by any means a standard turbo to achieve that kind of boost.
Are you measuring turbine shaft speed? only the true way to see if you are overspeeding it?max potential?
i have read that the PR guys are running 50psi+ from these BW turbos?? now i wont accept that they are by any means a standard turbo to achieve that kind of boost.
Are you measuring turbine shaft speed? only the true way to see if you are overspeeding it?max potential?
Grant, you are pretty much asking the same questions i am.
the first as to AFR and timing is pretty much answered stuff. until we get really good knock info and can tune closer to knock we won't be optimized power-wise. that will wait for my new Vi-PEC headphone system. later next week.
as to pre-turbo, post turbo...
i don't have an answer.. we have a lot of theory and some data but most is generated by the pump/nozzle system which has very little tune-ability so results no doubt are influenced by whether delivery is on the money. or not. my setup will answer these questions.
the primary theoretical advantage of pre-turbo is range extension as to turbo flow. cooler compressor = more air. so that would work best when you are really pushing the turbo which we aren't as yet.
OTOH, maybe it adds efficiency across the range.
we will see as i will be turning off one location, tuning out and then doing it w the other location.
howard
the first as to AFR and timing is pretty much answered stuff. until we get really good knock info and can tune closer to knock we won't be optimized power-wise. that will wait for my new Vi-PEC headphone system. later next week.
as to pre-turbo, post turbo...
i don't have an answer.. we have a lot of theory and some data but most is generated by the pump/nozzle system which has very little tune-ability so results no doubt are influenced by whether delivery is on the money. or not. my setup will answer these questions.
the primary theoretical advantage of pre-turbo is range extension as to turbo flow. cooler compressor = more air. so that would work best when you are really pushing the turbo which we aren't as yet.
OTOH, maybe it adds efficiency across the range.
we will see as i will be turning off one location, tuning out and then doing it w the other location.
howard
02-22-13, 02:49 PM
#32
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I don't know why some people consider 70°C as too cold coolant temperature for rotary engine. MFR competition manual consider engine as warmed-up when oil temp reaches 70°C and normal operating temperature is between 70-90°C for coolant and 90-110°C for oil.
Higher temperatures are only good for slightly lower hydrocarbon emissions, otherwise all running parameters are worse and detrimental to engine life and power.
Higher temperatures are only good for slightly lower hydrocarbon emissions, otherwise all running parameters are worse and detrimental to engine life and power.
If I'm driving around with this cold weather I can still get my cars water temp to 85 (Fans kick in) then it rarely goes above 86.
I'm looking to get a vmount soon which will keep it even cooler, and cool down my Air temp too (more important than my water temp at the moment)
I doubt my temps will go below 70, that seems far fetched...
02-26-13, 07:38 AM
#33
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Be good to know if Pre Turbo v's TB WI makes much difference to EGT's at the same CC, I know water makes a difference to the EGT's next to just Meth but the Meth drops the air temp more on its own so be good to have a Definitive answer what works best over all 
I Kind of agree that Air temp sensors give a false reading when your using TB WI but EGT's don't lie
I Kind of agree that Air temp sensors give a false reading when your using TB WI but EGT's don't lie
02-26-13, 12:17 PM
#34
water is a better knock suppressor than methanol, methanol can make more power than water alone because methanol is a fuel with high knock suppression.
but i have been leaning more on straight water injection lately, AI still is a rather crude way of injecting a fuel into the engine even with a 49/51 ratio. if you want the benefits of methanol/ethanol, use it strictly as a fuel through a true injection system.
but i have been leaning more on straight water injection lately, AI still is a rather crude way of injecting a fuel into the engine even with a 49/51 ratio. if you want the benefits of methanol/ethanol, use it strictly as a fuel through a true injection system.
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 02-26-13 at 12:20 PM.
02-26-13, 12:46 PM
#35
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water is a better knock suppressor than methanol, methanol can make more power than water alone because methanol is a fuel with high knock suppression.
but i have been leaning more on straight water injection lately, AI still is a rather crude way of injecting a fuel into the engine even with a 49/51 ratio. if you want the benefits of methanol/ethanol, use it strictly as a fuel through a true injection system.
but i have been leaning more on straight water injection lately, AI still is a rather crude way of injecting a fuel into the engine even with a 49/51 ratio. if you want the benefits of methanol/ethanol, use it strictly as a fuel through a true injection system.
Meth is very Unstable so when you mix it with water it dramatically looses its Poke.
02-26-13, 06:12 PM
#38
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Plus you won't catch me with neat Meth in the car.... Evil stuff... But it keeps my WI jet clean in small quantities mixed with plenty of water
02-26-13, 08:00 PM
#39
I've been making my own stuff using 50% windshield washer fluid / 50% denatured alch , is that dangerous? LOL , why would running more meth cause the car to be on fire? sorry I don't know if I just missed out on the joke LOL .
02-27-13, 09:58 AM
#42
Have you ever watched a member of the crew in an F1 race suddently start dancing for no apparent reason during a fuel stop? Or a driver suddenly baled out and began slapping himself. It wasn't because a favorite song started playing on his I-pod or the driver heard a good joke. I think RotaryEvolution was talking about how flames from alcohol aren't readily visible.
02-27-13, 10:07 AM
#44
i'm sure the dilution ratio has to be relatively low to allow the mixture to become flammable. most sanctioned racing bodies require it to be no less than a 51% water to 49% alcohol ratio for combustible safety(since it is generally stored in an unsafe area of the car). straight methanol will also burn skill quite easily just from surface contact.
methanol/ethanol flames are virtually invisible.
methanol/ethanol flames are virtually invisible.
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 02-27-13 at 10:11 AM.
02-27-13, 10:44 AM
#45
i'm sure the dilution ratio has to be relatively low to allow the mixture to become flammable. most sanctioned racing bodies require it to be no less than a 51% water to 49% alcohol ratio for combustible safety(since it is generally stored in an unsafe area of the car). straight methanol will also burn skill quite easily just from surface contact.
methanol/ethanol flames are virtually invisible.
methanol/ethanol flames are virtually invisible.
thanks I knew it burned invisible , but I didnt think there was much danger in it combusting , even at 70/30 meth to water .. which i'll be honest I was running for a while LOL
02-28-13, 05:27 AM
#50
Work in Progress
i know your not injecting pre turbo, but as mentioned if you would then you want more meth than water, if its safe to d it there at a hot turbo then at the intake elbow, i assume, it must be safe. but then again at this point of injection its a small amount of injection. I am trying to find a thread for tuning water injection as im going this route, injection pre turbo and post inter cooler.