RonKMiller

Ya' know, I really SHOULD learn how to get in touch with my inner self, express my feelings, and not hold back how I REALLY feel...

Mr. Stock

Why do you think that "macrocrack" does not exist. Your frail mind can parrot "microcrack" but can't handle "macrocrack"? Why don't you look it up if you don't understand the word?

What have you stated here is more vague drivel which does not support your case.

I didn't ask for your resume. But your use of the word "sight" rather than "site" is much more revealing of your intelligence or lack thereof than your purported degree in chemistry or how many motors you have built.

I am merely refuting your theory. You are the one who doesn't have a clue as to what you have said at the beginning of this thread.

All I want you to do is coherently explain how you make the projection from electrochemical degradation of the radiator hose of a piston engine to the O-ring in a rotary engine.

I want you to tell me what the parts there are in the rotary engine that are equivalent to the radiator hose fittings which is the basis for the electrochemical degradation of the radiator hose.

I want you to explain how the rotary engine is a more powerful "battery" as you put it when all the steel and aluminum parts are in contact with each other.

I did not attack you personally. I attacked your stupid theory that has no scientific basis. It is you who have first resorted to personal attacks in an attempt to defuse my refutation.

I do have something to contribute and that is to expose forum members like yourself who have no idea what they are talking about.

vudoodoodoo

Can the o-rings fail even if your car never overheated? Or even if the ADD COOLANT light never came on?

RonKMiller

Yes.

vudoodoodoo

Damn!

pomanferrari

iTrader: (1)

Damn, your reply is equivalent to George W. walking around the aircraft carrier holding his **** in a victory salute.

As far as theory goes, you put them up, be prepare to defend them. You sound like you're a little defensive about your children, I mean pet theory.

juliof

So the o-rings can fail even if the car has never been over heated (why isant that special). Mazda should have fixed this problem before production, or replaced motors that fail with better o-rings.

Mr. Stock

Are you going to believe Mr. Ron K "I have a master's degree in chemistry and I built a zillion engines so I know about O-rings" Miller?

To say that O-rings can fail without overheating is like saying entropy will prevail without the help of extraneous heat. It is a worthless statement.

Instead of spewing more crap, why don't you answer my questions that I posed in my previous post, RonKMiller? Or are you hiding?

spurvo

Not to stick my admitedly scared head into this, but O-rings made of material inferior to the types of unique loads and stresses the 13B-REW provide might just fail even without overheating. Look to the rather large number of O-rings that fail consistently around the 60 to 70 K mile mark (just in reading the forum over the last year or so). I'm wondering if Mazda actually didn't test this engine for that kind of longevity, and we're seeing the result. Not that Mazda would give a rats nest!! I mean ***...

paw140

Many, many, many people have experienced o-ring failures without the engine overheating, including myself.

johnchabin

iTrader: (2)

What happened to the love?

I'm on contract (engineer) with Gates Rubber (now The Gates Corporation) in Denver. If I can figure out who wrote the ECD article, "Hot News About Coolant Hose Failure", I'll shoot him/her an e-mail and ask about o-rings.

Ron: I think your leap from hoses to o-rings is a stretch. From what I read, I believe coolant flow through the rubber creates the EMD. It is an interesting theory, though.

Mr. Stock: Perhaps you came on a bit too strong?

paw140: I think it's heat cycling on a material that can't hold up to the abuse. I agree with your theory.

THIS IS NOT INTENDED AS A PERSONAL ATTACK ON ANYONE IN PARTICULAR. PLEASE DO NOT READ IT AS SUCH AND ATTACK ME IN RETURN.

johnchabin

iTrader: (2)

Oh, and I happen to like racing stripes.

Mr. Stock

I did not deny that O-rings can fail without overheating. It is a pat of an engine and without stress such as overheating, any part can fail due to manufacturing defects, eventual degradation, etc.

But to answer that O-rings can fail without overheating without any more description of why they may only gives the illusion that it is from electrochemical degradation which was specifically mentioned in this thread. And I have a big problem with this

Mr. Stock

I had nothing against RonKMiller.

However, when he puts forth some ill-conceived notions about what he believes is the culprit of O-ring failures and forum members take it as gospel, I raised an objection.

RonKMiller decided to attack me personally calling me names and thumping his chest instead of defending his idea in a coherent, logical manner, proabably because he doesn't have the mental capacity to do so despite his claim that he has a master's in chemistry

He must have thought that I could be easily intimidated by his verbal refuse.

He should take his own advice and apologize like a man.

Mr. Stock

That wins the Understatement of the Year award.

rookie7

Ronkmiller has expressed his theories on o-ring failures and he has backed it up with some information from gates corp., but all I've seen from mr stock is some childish "but why?" stuff and no explanation on why he thinks o-rings fail. Ronkmiller has supported his opinion with his credentials, but mr stock gives no support to why we should think he has any knowledge on the subject. I think mr stock should keep his insults to forum members to himself and try proving to the rest of us why he thinks he knows so much more than "forum members"

Svelte_7

iTrader: (4)

Instead of using of rubber, would it be possible to spec out a more heat and chemical resilient oring constructed from Viton or even Kalrez? These materials are considerably more in cost however if they push out the MTBF (mean time before failure) to the next most common mode of failure (dentonation?), then the next logical step of bulletproofing your engine lie in the more commonly known and sense of rotary tuning (3-step rule, proper a/f, etc.)

I'll will admit to never having rebuilt an engine however if preserving ones engine was as simple as replacing your water/coolant mixture with another cooling medium of a higher boiling point with almost no electrical conductivity then your magical fluid is Galden:

http://www.solvaysolexis.com/Galden.htm

However depending on who you get this stuff from, prices range from $100-300 a gallon! And if you're hardcore enough to want this stuff, I can price out some titanium intake and intecooler pipes for you too.

Mr. Stock

You have got to be f***ing kidding me!

Have you read and understand the electrochemical degradation theory???

RonKMiller has not backed up his theory on O-ring failure with the electrochemical degradation theory. He has no clue in regards to how the electrochemical degradation works. The electrochemical degradation theory basically states that a rubber hose that is carrying an electrolyte solution between 2 metallic parts which form a circuit will undergo a breakdown due to the electrolyte solution. The only thing that is common between a rubber hose and an O-ring is the fact that they are made of rubber. So the electrochemical degradation theory does not work for O-rings.

I never professed that I know why the O-rings fail. But RonKMiller believed that he found some new process which causes the O-rings to fail.

Common sense and rudimentary knowledge of chemistry would point to heat degradation as the cause of failure of O-rings. Unless RonKMiller can prove otherwise, that is what I and most other intelligent people will believe.

You really are a rookie. Do you really believe all of RonKMiller's bullshit? You really do believe that he has a master's in chemistry, don't you? I would be shocked if he has a college degree, let alone a master’s.

The fact of the matter is that this forum is populated by literally hundreds if not thousands of people who know little of anything about anything. You are a prime example. All I am doing is keeping these people from believe in some crap some idiot writes as gospel of rotary engines.

Mr. Stock

By the way, I never had a problem with RonKMiller before this thread...except that he seemed a bit arrogant in his previous posts.

But now I know that not only is he arrogant, but he is also none too bright and doesn't have the ***** to admit it when he is wrong.

Alien7

iTrader: (1)

You make some good points, Mr. Stock.

paw140

I don't understand why you think hoses are so much different than o-rings. You stated yourself that 'The only thing that is common between a rubber hose and an O-ring is the fact that they are made of rubber.' They are made from similar materials, and live in a similar environment, so wouldn't you think they would be subjected to the same type of degradation? I admit that the only thing I know about Electrochemical Degradation is what I read in this thread and on the Gates website, but it doesn't seem like too much of a leap to go from coolant hoses to o-rings.

Personally I think that the o-ring failures are due to physical heat aging. But that is not a good reason to completely throw out other theories.

Mr. Stock

For electrochemical degradation has to take place you need a "circuit" between two large metallic parts. The two large metallic parts are the engine and the radiator . The circuit is completed by a rubber hose with an electrolyte solution flowing through it. This condtion apparently causes the rubber hose to degrade.

Within the Rotary engine, there is no "circuit". The rotor housing and the side housing have in between them the O-ring. However, the rotor housing and the side housing are in contact with each oither. The O-ring does not form a circuit with the rotor and the side housings. Therefore, electrochemical degradation can not take place

When RonKMiller wrote "With the rotary's abundant aluminum and iron internal plates in close proximity to each other we literally have a more powerful 'battery', hence the premature failure.", he couldn't have been any more wrong.

Mr. Stock

Actually, that is a very good reason ignore RonKMiller's idea.

For more on why O-rings fail, read here.
http://www.scuderiaciriani.com/rx7/o-ring_failure.html

adam c

iTrader: (2)

I always enjoy reading threads like this one where people with different ideas express opinions on different sides of an issue. While I am no expert on o-ring failure, it seems that there is probably more than one reason that they fail.

It would really be nice to see an intelligent discusison without the name calling.

Ron, if you don't like what someone else has written, you should show some of your higher level education in your reply. As a respected member of the forum, you should be better than this.

GoRacer

iTrader: (2)

Well I called RB again about their plasma sprayed indestructable light wieght aluminum side housings and the 3rg gen price is $1800/side. I was previously quoted for the 1st gen. So most lightly I will be the ginne pig and heat coat the parts if not cryo treat them. Here is an Article from MTrix. Maybe the assemly line factory doing the reman' engines for Mazda never got the memo?