Why do they hate me (oil pan sealing saga)?
 

So me and my friend started putting a Banzai Racing oil pan brace and poly motor mounts on today. What a pain in the ass!!! The mounts weren't hard at all but that freaking oil pan removal was so freaking stupid! What the hell was Mazda thinking with that. They couldn't make the hole in the subframe just a little bigger so that the oil pan would drop right through. Luckily we were able to do it without removing the subframe but we did remove the oil pickup to make it slide out easier and its going to be a pain to put it back in. Cant slide it in with the silicone on it can we. So what we are going to try tomorrow (since we couldnt get it done today) is slide the pan in, put the pickup back on, and then try to put the silicone on with it just hanging there. Hopefully it works Id hate to have to take the pickup back off and scrape the silicone back off. Be even worse to have to remove the subframe :(

I just did both of those a few weeks ago...yes quite the pain. I had the same mindset as you going into it not wanting to pull the sub frame. After messing with it for a while it is just easier if you do. Really doesn't take much time and makes the replacement of the pan a lot easier. Some have done it without pulling it but I had to especially to clean off the old residue completely. Good Luck!

:werd:

I did this last summer and the sub frame is a major pain to get out but it's well worth it so you can clean everything up easier. I found it actually easy to get the subframe back on too :bigthumb:

The key to not having to do it again (even with the brace) is to get it clean. Really clean. Make sure the bolt holes are cleaned out too and let the sealant set undisturbed per directions.
Never tried it, but there's this too---> https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...easier+oil+pan

https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...easier+oil+pan

In this linked thread, it is described how to do it without a mess. The key is to put the sealer on the block, not the pan. There are also a couple of other useful tricks described.

good to know, doing mine next week along with all new bushings

Oil pan sealing results
 

BTW, after following the procedures noted in this thread, it is now 5 years later, and my pan is still leak-free! :icon_tup:

what silicone are u guys using. which one works the best

thanks mahjik

you don't have to remove the subframe but it is a hell of alot easier if you unbolt it from the frame and drop it down a few inches.

It was a pain in the ass but we did it. We went back and finished it the way that I put earlier. We cleaned the pan out/under engine and put the pan back in (we needed to convince it to go in lol). We then let it sit in that hole in the subframe and took turns sliding our hands between it and the block and put the studs in. Of course I had to drop the allen wrench into the pan when we were tightening them in but we were able to get it out with out taking the pan back out. We then put the silicone around the block not the pan and slid it on. The mounts were the easiest part just lined em up and we were good to go. Its cured and we picked it up 2 hours ago and its good to go. No leaks. Now I hope I never have to do that again lol.

oh on top of that i cracked my throttle body!! so perfect excuse for a new one :) any thoughts on where to go for a nice throttle body?

DAMN!!!!! I knew it was going to happen but I didn't listen to myself. I said to myself:
"Self, this is some pretty old silicone..."
"Yeah but its silicone it doesnt go bad. Besides it worked on the oil pan on your Lancer and its modded out"
"Yeah but its better to be safe than sorry."
"True but your already at the care center why go back out. Lets just get this over with."
"OK if you say so..."

Why the hell did I listen to myself! Now the 7 is leaking more than it was before I did this! Well now me and fore mentioned friend have to do it all over again. Did I mention he is a really good friend lol. This time Im going out and buying new stuff. So the question is Ultra Blue or Ultra Black???

how about "the right stuff" gasket maker like recommended before?

My friend and I installed the banzai racing oil pan brace, Noltec urthethane motor mounts, and Permatex "The Right Stuff" gasket maker on a brand new oem oil pan on my FD last year in April. It WAS a PITA. I would strongly recommend to drop the subframe (which is what we did) because you then have plenty of room to tighten all the bolts and torque them properly in the star pattern and you can be sure its getting done right, because you don't wanna have to do it again. I havent leaked a drop of oil in almost a year and everything down there still looks new, and I do drive my car a lot.

I didnt realize it at first, but this is actually a 2 person job, well im sure 1 person can do it, but it took both of us to pry the subframe out from under the car. To apply the RTV, we followed the instructions on the Banzai Racing website, only we put the RTV on the pan instead, because putting it on the block upside down is obviously impossible. Look at the pictures on the Banzai Racing website and apply it exactly like you see it. Also make sure you apply RTV all around both of the motor mount holes (NOT inside) if you have any questions send me a PM i'll be more then happy to help :)

Do it right and drop the subframe. You probably smeared the sealant all over trying to force the oil pan in.

This is probably the reason. Did you put the sealant on the engine or the pan before assembly? If you do it with the subframe in place, it HAS TO BE DONE with the sealant applied to the engine, not the pan. As I said in the thread I referenced, it can be done (I had great success) with the subframe in place, but you do have to do it carefully. The tips in that thread are very useful.

Dave

will be tackling this myself soon. im going to take the engine out though lol

as i mentioned, this is a bad way to do an oil pan.

a) you can put stress on parts of the engine by jamming it so far up into the tunnel that you break something

and

b) it is near impossible to clean the bottom of the engine thoroughly with such little space.


it takes me about 3 hours to do an FD oil pan with conventional tools that you all surely have, there is no reason to try to make a pita job even more of a pita by not taking the 45 minutes to drop the subframe down.

Were going to drop the subframe this time for sure.

No we didnt smear any sealant putting it in. We put the pan in first and had enough room to let it sit on the subframe and put the sealant on the engine not the pan. Then we lifted the pan into place. The sealant is the problem in this situation not the method. The silicone when dry just flaked off so obviously it wasnt going to do the job. The only reason I used it is because I had it already and used it before for the exact same thing just on a different car. I havent had a problem in 5 years with the car I used it on. Im sure I could do it the same way we did and have it work but Id rather just have the extra room for comfort. My neck and arms still hurt from working in that little room.

That is the best way to do it. I seem to have this mental defect where I resist taking anything apart that doesn't absolutely need to be disassembled. Sometimes it does make the job more difficult, but I still persist in doing things that way...:lol:

Dave

Just to reiterate, use "The Right Stuff" as linked above. I've also been successful with "HONDABOND" with an oil pan brace, but after helping a friend re-seal his pan with "The Right Stuff", I think it's better.
DO NOT just use some off-the-shelf sealant. The nature of the surfaces involved are different from other more typical applications and those two products are proven to work as long as the surface is properly cleaned... and you allow it to cure.

I view it the same way as Dave. If I dont have to take it apart, Im not going to risk messing anything up or breaking a tool like a couple of people have when taking the subframe route (now I dont know what brand/quality tools they were using. Im using Craftsman and I know of one person for sure who broke Craftsman while doing this). Ill probably still go this route like I said for the comfort and for the ease (if I find it easier as everyone apparently does).

Ill look at "The Right Stuff" since it seems to be pretty recommended. I was just going to go the Ultra Blue or Black method since its what Banzai recommends in their directions

now for "The Right Stuff" are you guys using the Imports Gasket Maker or does it really matter?

I've used both, and IMHO, the "Import" is TOO hard.

I never had a leak with both of them, but the non-Import Right-Stuff is so much more flexible when cured.

:-) neil

cool thanks. Ill look into it.

check the gasket area where the front cover mate up to the front iron, that area can also leak too along with the pan creating a big oily mess.

OK one question:

if you remove the subframe the tranny with the ppf will handle the weight of the motor or do you have to lift the engine or suported with the lift.
thanks

You have to support the engine the ppf doesn't do anything to support the engine

yeah definitely need something to support the engine. Were I live we have a place we can go and rent a bay and lift to work on our cars for a decent fee. The first time I went to do this (ran out of time at the shop) we had the car on a lift and a transmission lift to hold the engine and trans up. Worked pretty well I think.

I used this to support my engine when I removed my subframe: http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=96524

It holds the engine up from the top by hooking onto the engine hoist loops, that way you don't have anything supporting from the bottom so you have all the room you could ever want to re-seal the oil pan.

Also, it's been mentioned before, but I'm just going to stress that you have to clean, clean, and clean all the old stuff off. I used a gasket scraper, a razor blade, gasket remover, and a tap (for the holes) to get all the old stuff off.

+1 for "The Right Stuff", Garfinkle Oil Pan Brace, and Moroso studs.

^ this. I purchased one of those support bars too. I had to get one to hold the engine up to put my trans back in. Also going to be used to re-seal my oil pan. Probably going to start on mine tomorrow.

a block of wood & a floor jack under the transmission will work. There's a little flat place for it. Just jack it up until the weight is off the engine mounts... remove the bolts on the mounts.... then jack it up til it bottoms out on the transmission tunnel (be sure the hood is open).


There's plenty of room under there. You won't have a problem with it interfering. I did mine with this method as have numerous other unfortunate souls to attempt the process with the engine in the car.

I use the same method as grimple1 but if i had to do it again i would get that engine support thing posted above because its more safe if the jack or wood slips something dangerous is going to happen.

EDIT: When i did mines my car was on the lift and was 8 feet above the floor but most of you would probably be doing this when the car is on jack stands so theres less possibility of the the wood and jack slipping

So the consensus here is to just use sealant and forego the gasket (shown in the service manual). I'm doing mine in a few weeks and want to make sure ;)

No gasket, just sealant.

Yup. That's been proven over and over. The problem with the gasket is that it never stops yielding, especially under the engine mounts. So, over time and stress of engine movement, leaks develop. Eliminating the gasket eliminates most of the compressible material between the pan and the block, helping to prevent future leaks from developing.

Here, again, is a related thread with some useful tips and info: https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...easier+oil+pan

So revival time.

Finally got my friend to give me his engine hoist now that he isn't using it, so its time to get her back up and running. Got the hoist yesterday and hooked it up today and got to work. I will say that there is not a lot of room to work with if you go this route because the legs stick so far under the car. So if I ever have to do anything like this again, Im probably going to invest in one of those support bars.

I also took the advice given here and dropped the crossmember, there is soooo much more room to work with it dropped. The hardest part was removing the bolts holding it on lol. I used a combination of an impact wrench, normal wrench with a mallet, and a torque wrench (for the extra leverage). Finally after PB blasting it and the torque wrench, I was finally able to get them off. I then removed the oil pan while getting soaked by the rest of the oil in there lol.

I got a friends birthday to go to so decided to stop there and let the pan leak the rest out over night. Tomorrow comes the cleaning :)

1. Hoist installed
2. No room to move lol (removed jack after lowering crossmember. Didnt know how it was going to react to removing the bolts.)
3. Front view.
4. Broc wondering what the hell I'm doing lol.

1. Drop subframe
2. Remove pan and clean the hell outta the sealing surface
3. Run a tap thru all stud holes
4. Clean again
5. Check the flange for straightness on the pan
6. Clean again - install studs
7. Apply the RIGHT STUFF on the block
8. Install pan/brace
9. Torque all nuts
10 run a finger all around the pan/block surface
11 install the MM/subframe
12 let sit for 24 hors without any oil in it to cure
13. Add oil
14. warmup and check for leaks


later

I would recommend using something like acetone to clean both block and pan sealing surfaces. Tom's right, you have to remove all traces of oil to ensure a good bond.

Yeah I know I have to clean it like crazy to get it to bond. I'm not going to re-tap the stud holes since I did that when I first installed it. The only reason I would back those back out and re-tap them is if I have issues getting the engine mounting surface as clean as I want it.

I'm spending all of today and probably tomorrow cleaning the pan and the under surface with some simple green a scraping tool and I might use some brake fluid since I hear that works pretty well. Also I'm going to hit up NAPA or Autozone to get some Right Stuff lol.

Don't use brake fluid...! Use lacquer thinner or acetone on a clean rag and rubber gloves



later

Did he mean brake cleaner?

Correct on the brake fluid - brake fluid will leave a residue that will impair sealing. Also, brake cleaner (many varieties available) will clean well and leave no residue. If you did use brake fluid, use brake cleaner to remove the brake fluid's residue.

Dave

Yeah I did, I'm an idiot lol. i meant cleaner. Sorry, dog did something to really piss me off when I was writing it so I kinda rushed.

I had a mechanic that I used to go to college with tell me that break cleaner is all he uses to degreese stuff. Its cheaper then most cleaning agents and usually does a better job according to him.

BE CAREFUL with Brake Cleaner:

Non-Chlorinated is not so harsh on rubber/plastic parts or the environment, it's all I use

USE IN WELL VENTILATED AREAS FAR FAR FAR FAR AWAY FROM ANYTHING RESEMBLING A HEAT SOURCE!!!!!!

It was my own fault but I had my engine catch fire TWICE because the damn cleaner is so volatile! First time I accidentaly touched the positive terminal of the batt making it spark and the whole engine bay catched fire. The second time it was from a lit citronella candle that was at least 10ft away, somehow the fumes got there and I dumbfoundedly watched as the fire ran from the candle to my car!! I got lucky both times that I had a water hose near and the fire consumed the cleaner before anything else so my car had no major damage apart from a couple wires here and there.

DAMN! I would have had a heart attack if I watched that happen. Maybe ill just stick to simple green and a lot of scrubbing... I never thought cleaning my car would be so dangerous... lol

Use the non-flammable type. Just ask for it. It should be available at most auto parts stores.

Dave

ive just done my sump and all seems well soo far :D

i took the engine out to do it though, far easier for me and i knew i could get both surfaces clean. i used petrol to clean and then sand paper and then another clean, i also tapped flat the grooves in the pan as i fitted a sump brace at the same time.

i didnt use a gasket, just loctite 518