Why do the extra grounding straps work?
12-01-02, 10:42 AM
#1
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Thread Starter
Why do the extra grounding straps work?
Does it have to do with potential or resistance?
Is it because electricity travels faster through copper than other metals?
Is it because the route is more direct and there is less background interference/noise?
Jeez, I'm just full of questions... electrical engineers please? There has to be an answer grounded (no pun intended) in FACT.
Is it because electricity travels faster through copper than other metals?
Is it because the route is more direct and there is less background interference/noise?
Jeez, I'm just full of questions... electrical engineers please? There has to be an answer grounded (no pun intended) in FACT.
12-01-02, 11:05 AM
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I'm no engineer, but I'll try to make sense of what I have read 
Electricity is basically a movement of electrons called current. Electrons are repelled from the negative side of the power source and pulled to the positive side. Current is the number of electrons travelling through the wire at any given point.
Now, a high resistance cable will not allow a lot of current to go through. So what do these fancy low resitance ground cables do? They open up the highway even more for the current to flow through and allow the electrical components to basically "Breath" better. Even at the same voltage, a low resistance cable will allow more current to flow than a high resistance cable.
Electricity is basically a movement of electrons called current. Electrons are repelled from the negative side of the power source and pulled to the positive side. Current is the number of electrons travelling through the wire at any given point.
Now, a high resistance cable will not allow a lot of current to go through. So what do these fancy low resitance ground cables do? They open up the highway even more for the current to flow through and allow the electrical components to basically "Breath" better. Even at the same voltage, a low resistance cable will allow more current to flow than a high resistance cable.
12-01-02, 11:07 AM
#4
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Originally posted by Flybye
I'm no engineer, but I'll try to make sense of what I have read
Electricity is basically a movement of electrons called current. Electrons are repelled from the negative side of the power source and pulled to the positive side. Current is the number of electrons travelling through the wire at any given point.
Now, a high resistance cable will not allow a lot of current to go through. So what do these fancy low resitance ground cables do? They open up the highway even more for the current to flow through and allow the electrical components to basically "Breath" better.
I'm no engineer, but I'll try to make sense of what I have read
Electricity is basically a movement of electrons called current. Electrons are repelled from the negative side of the power source and pulled to the positive side. Current is the number of electrons travelling through the wire at any given point.
Now, a high resistance cable will not allow a lot of current to go through. So what do these fancy low resitance ground cables do? They open up the highway even more for the current to flow through and allow the electrical components to basically "Breath" better.
12-01-02, 11:22 AM
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Oh one more thing...
Silver is the best conductor of electricity. The reason many high quality cables have gold plated ends is because gold resists corrision better.
Silver is the best conductor of electricity. The reason many high quality cables have gold plated ends is because gold resists corrision better.
12-01-02, 05:32 PM
#6
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Grounding (Upgraded)
I was reading through sport compact car and they had an article about grounding from a company in japan.
They had a dyno graph comparing straps vs. stock straps on a 95 RX7. Oddly enough, it showed 140rwhp with all the bolt ons.... ....nevertheless, with the improved straps, the RX7 made 15hp at around 6K and less than that at other points. I'm not sure if it was that particular RX7 or what, but it seems improved grounding helps.
My question is this...can i just get regular stereo 4 gauge wire and do improved grounding myself? or do i have to buy their "better" straps. I believe they are insulated better, but stereo 4 gauge wire is stilll a vast improvement over stock.
Danny
They had a dyno graph comparing straps vs. stock straps on a 95 RX7. Oddly enough, it showed 140rwhp with all the bolt ons.... ....nevertheless, with the improved straps, the RX7 made 15hp at around 6K and less than that at other points. I'm not sure if it was that particular RX7 or what, but it seems improved grounding helps.
My question is this...can i just get regular stereo 4 gauge wire and do improved grounding myself? or do i have to buy their "better" straps. I believe they are insulated better, but stereo 4 gauge wire is stilll a vast improvement over stock.
Danny
12-01-02, 06:04 PM
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IMO, ANY similiar gauge wiring that can withstand engine bay heat and has very little resistance is good enough.
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12-01-02, 06:59 PM
#8
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The reason you want grounding straps actually isn't just to allow more current to flow, but to eliminate electrical interference. The computer is relies heavily on encountering precise voltage values, so extra resistance and voltage spikes confuse it a lot. The stock grounds work just fine when they're not all corroded, but if you've ever done any electrical labs with an oscilloscope, you'll notice there is no such thing as too many grounds. What happens is if you have too long of a path for the electrons to travel in order to reach the ground, the remaining wire not only acts as a resistor, but also as an antenna, so you'll see a lot of "noise". Its the same reason you can sometimes hear the engine through the radio (obviously in a strange manner) if you don't have it grounded properly.
12-01-02, 07:47 PM
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good explanation. I think i'm going to use some stereo wire and start grounding points in the car. Does anyone have or can make a list of new ground wire i should make/replace?
Danny
Danny
12-01-02, 09:02 PM
#10
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Thread Starter
Hmmm... seems like we are getting there, but I still
want someone who is qualified to give me an explanation... CREDENTIALS PLEASE.
BTW. This works big time. I fabricated my own out of common multiple strand heavy gauge copper and swaged/soldered connections with cleaned mounting points...
I feel a much better throttle "reponse" Call it torque, snap, less lag, whatever.......my butt dyno tells me it works. Drivability (if there is such a word) is much better. My butt dyno is certified by having owned my bitch for 10 years.
I am not an expert in metallurgy but I always thought that copper was the holy grail of conductivity, and I do know that common copper wire is not "pure" but an alloy.
Sorry to be such a pita - The big question still: WHY???
want someone who is qualified to give me an explanation... CREDENTIALS PLEASE.
BTW. This works big time. I fabricated my own out of common multiple strand heavy gauge copper and swaged/soldered connections with cleaned mounting points...
I feel a much better throttle "reponse" Call it torque, snap, less lag, whatever.......my butt dyno tells me it works. Drivability (if there is such a word) is much better. My butt dyno is certified by having owned my bitch for 10 years.
I am not an expert in metallurgy but I always thought that copper was the holy grail of conductivity, and I do know that common copper wire is not "pure" but an alloy.
Sorry to be such a pita - The big question still: WHY???
12-01-02, 09:11 PM
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Nathan explained the why. The stock ECU relies heavily on sensors and voltage readings, and when the factory grounds get ineffective, you get the symptoms we all know. I did a grounding job of my own tonight as well.
Last edited by gnobesav; 12-01-02 at 09:13 PM.
12-01-02, 09:13 PM
#12
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I used 8 guage monster cable with gold connectors... Hell - it was still a cheap mod. (btw, I am not one who proclaims that monster cable nor marketing such as BOSE is good quality, merely better than average).
Seemed the engine reved a bit smoother.
BTW, has anyone seen custom wires with grounding on each wire for the rx7? A big deal with other cars...
lates.
Seemed the engine reved a bit smoother.
BTW, has anyone seen custom wires with grounding on each wire for the rx7? A big deal with other cars...
lates.
12-01-02, 09:14 PM
#13
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Thread Starter
Originally posted by Nathan Kwok
The reason you want grounding straps actually isn't just to allow more current to flow, but to eliminate electrical interference. The computer is relies heavily on encountering precise voltage values, so extra resistance and voltage spikes confuse it a lot. The stock grounds work just fine when they're not all corroded, but if you've ever done any electrical labs with an oscilloscope, you'll notice there is no such thing as too many grounds. What happens is if you have too long of a path for the electrons to travel in order to reach the ground, the remaining wire not only acts as a resistor, but also as an antenna, so you'll see a lot of "noise". Its the same reason you can sometimes hear the engine through the radio (obviously in a strange manner) if you don't have it grounded properly.
The reason you want grounding straps actually isn't just to allow more current to flow, but to eliminate electrical interference. The computer is relies heavily on encountering precise voltage values, so extra resistance and voltage spikes confuse it a lot. The stock grounds work just fine when they're not all corroded, but if you've ever done any electrical labs with an oscilloscope, you'll notice there is no such thing as too many grounds. What happens is if you have too long of a path for the electrons to travel in order to reach the ground, the remaining wire not only acts as a resistor, but also as an antenna, so you'll see a lot of "noise". Its the same reason you can sometimes hear the engine through the radio (obviously in a strange manner) if you don't have it grounded properly.
I always thought a ground is a ground is a ground.....do they have different values that are measurable depending on the distance from the battery/source? Do these values affect performance or are they just fluff?I am getting so - esoteric - but I think this is important.
Not only for my sanity but for all the guys out there selling this stuff.......
12-01-02, 09:19 PM
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Originally posted by RonKMiller
Really good explanation - but how does this translate into the "mechanics"? ....
Really good explanation - but how does this translate into the "mechanics"? ....
12-01-02, 09:39 PM
#15
don't race, don't need to
I just re-grounded my bitch, placing a cable directly from the battery to the engine block, with an extra wire from the battery to the chassis (the unused hole in the shock tower). I also replaced the engine to body strap at the rear from the UIM with stranded wire and soldered connectors. All connections used star washers between the bolts and EVERY connector. You are absolutely right Ron. Better torque, better driveability.
I was looking into the manual for a reason that might make sense (have certificate in analog electronics, have worked in electronics for years. Build guitar amps in my limited spare time...) I noticed that the ECU has four grounding points. One is on the chassis of the ECU, and this is labeled as ECU ground. There are two grounds labeled output that attach to areas under the UIM. Finally, there is an input ground as well, also on the engine itself. I think the bottom line here is that the ECU is able to obtain signals from the various inputs, such as rpm, O2 sensor, throttle position, crank angle sensor (rpm?), engine temp, air temp, intake temp, fuel temp, and MAP, to name a few, and these signals are more accurately reflecting the actual conditions in the engine. The ECU is then able to control the air fuel mixture in a fashion that is closer to stochiometrically correct, as per its fuel maps. Rembember that most signals are a modification of battery voltage at fairly low current. A SLIGHT difference in resistance (on the order of milli) will result in fairly large differences in the percieved voltage and therefore engine condition. The ECU must react accordingly. Further, I'd bet the commands the ECU puts out are greatly effected by the resistance seen, and again we see a difference in the response of the engine. Does this make sense?
So why does it get rid of hesitation at 3K? Is this due to many solenoids being controlled at this rpm at once, and the better ground path leads to better/faster control?
That's my long winded response. Am I an expert? Not really. The way to really test this is to feed incorrect signals to the ecu while driving and see what it's response is. Not going to volunteer my machine, thanks
BTW, anyone know the resistance that occurs when going from aluminum to iron, such as the engine block does? Hmmm...
I was looking into the manual for a reason that might make sense (have certificate in analog electronics, have worked in electronics for years. Build guitar amps in my limited spare time...) I noticed that the ECU has four grounding points. One is on the chassis of the ECU, and this is labeled as ECU ground. There are two grounds labeled output that attach to areas under the UIM. Finally, there is an input ground as well, also on the engine itself. I think the bottom line here is that the ECU is able to obtain signals from the various inputs, such as rpm, O2 sensor, throttle position, crank angle sensor (rpm?), engine temp, air temp, intake temp, fuel temp, and MAP, to name a few, and these signals are more accurately reflecting the actual conditions in the engine. The ECU is then able to control the air fuel mixture in a fashion that is closer to stochiometrically correct, as per its fuel maps. Rembember that most signals are a modification of battery voltage at fairly low current. A SLIGHT difference in resistance (on the order of milli) will result in fairly large differences in the percieved voltage and therefore engine condition. The ECU must react accordingly. Further, I'd bet the commands the ECU puts out are greatly effected by the resistance seen, and again we see a difference in the response of the engine. Does this make sense?
So why does it get rid of hesitation at 3K? Is this due to many solenoids being controlled at this rpm at once, and the better ground path leads to better/faster control?
That's my long winded response. Am I an expert? Not really. The way to really test this is to feed incorrect signals to the ecu while driving and see what it's response is. Not going to volunteer my machine, thanks
BTW, anyone know the resistance that occurs when going from aluminum to iron, such as the engine block does? Hmmm...
12-01-02, 10:30 PM
#16
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Thread Starter
Spurvo - you da man. I am starting to get the picture now.
What we are talking about in the stock condition is a
"failure to communicate" (with apologies to Strother Martin - the Warden in Cool Hand Luke)
Efficiency is the key. Less resistance equals more accurate and more stable voltage. Each affected component can now meet the design spec which promotes quicker response, hence "better" perfomance. "Noise" is not good since it degrades the signal. It all works together in a synergistic manner.
Thanks.
I always come back to the essentials when it comes to stuff like this, sorry I am such a dunce. I am a right brainer. Your explanation is appreciated, especially converting it to layman's terms.
OK, why not increase the positive leads as well?
(just kidding!
)
I am at one with my grounding straps (all FIVE of them) Life is good.
What we are talking about in the stock condition is a
"failure to communicate" (with apologies to Strother Martin - the Warden in Cool Hand Luke)
Efficiency is the key. Less resistance equals more accurate and more stable voltage. Each affected component can now meet the design spec which promotes quicker response, hence "better" perfomance. "Noise" is not good since it degrades the signal. It all works together in a synergistic manner.
Thanks.
I always come back to the essentials when it comes to stuff like this, sorry I am such a dunce. I am a right brainer. Your explanation is appreciated, especially converting it to layman's terms.
OK, why not increase the positive leads as well?
(just kidding!
)I am at one with my grounding straps (all FIVE of them)
Life is good.
12-01-02, 10:38 PM
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Maybe a simple analogy is in order. Lets say you have a sensor that changes resistance to indicate some measurable value. So, you put 12V across the sensor, then measure the voltage drop across it and that value changes depending on what the sensor sees. This is the job of the ECU, to take that voltage drop and decide what to do about it. Now, the ECU assumes that the "ground", which is on the negative side, is at 0V. The problem is, if the ground has to go a long way before it hits the chassis, that length of wire will pick up electrical interference, so instead of having 0V on the ground level, you'll have a fluctuating value that will alter the measured voltage drop across the sensor. You'd be amazing what kind of electrical interference is out there. I did a lab recently where we simply measured ambient electrical interference, basically left the ground unhooked and looked at the oscilloscope, and we could actually pick up an oscillating 60Hz wave coming from the overhead flourescent lamps! Ideally, every sensor would have its negative terminal go straight to the nearest point on the chassis, instead of through wiring, because the chassis is a large enough electron resevoir that interference is not a problem. A lot of the sensors on the car are very very sensitive, this ambient electrical interference does make a big difference. Thats why instead of running all the grounds into the negative battery terminal, we instead have grounds that take a physically shorter route, so the "antenna" is smaller. Also, obviously, having well shielded ground wires is also important, so if you have the insulation cracking off due to the heat, then the ground wire can't do its job as well.
12-01-02, 10:56 PM
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In conclusion, everyone should upgrade their ground straps
So is ANY grounding cable ok? Which would be the better? Stereo high stranded cables or the thick stranded cables found at any autoparts stores?
So is ANY grounding cable ok? Which would be the better? Stereo high stranded cables or the thick stranded cables found at any autoparts stores?
12-01-02, 11:07 PM
#19
don't race, don't need to
Failyah ta camuunkate...
I wonder how many of those who like the song Civil War by G-N-R have seen Cool Hand Luke? I KNOW you have, Ron. 50 eggs? I almost puked myself first time I saw that!
BTW, any pics or data from your ghetto cooling setup?
Thread Hijack!! RUN!!
I want to go after those ground points under theUIM and put star washers there too. After 60K miles, I KNOW they have had a little electrochemistry make their day...
For those of you keeping score at home, ECU pin 4A and B are combined, listed as ECU Ground output (whatever the hell THAT means!), and grounded at the back of the UIM. See page C-86 in the almighty manual (93 is my flavor) It is part of the harness that also contolls ALL of the solenoids. Right. 4C is listed as the CPU ground, and is located under the UIM, along the engine centerline. See page C-84. Lastly, there is 4D, the input ground. This is the point where the oil metering pump, EGR switch, throttle sensor, water thermosensor, intake temp sensor, fuel thermosensor, and pressure sensor all get their ground. Presumably, these sensors' "ground" value is referenced against what the ECU sees as ground via the CPU lead (4C) and the ECU adjusts parameters accordingly. Thus, even a little resistance between battery ground and the engine (going through two housing interfaces as well!) will make this reference incorrect. Note that the coil packs and wires run near the 4C ground, and these are the noisiest part of any engine (electromagnetic stray field from wires is HELL to control, and that's with standard "supression core" wire. Ever heard solid core through your radio? YUCK!), and that's where Nathan's point is so well taken! Star washers for EVERYBODY (as opposed to colonics. 12 Monkeys ROCKED!!)
All hail the mightly manual
I wonder how many of those who like the song Civil War by G-N-R have seen Cool Hand Luke? I KNOW you have, Ron. 50 eggs? I almost puked myself first time I saw that!
BTW, any pics or data from your ghetto cooling setup?
Thread Hijack!! RUN!!
I want to go after those ground points under theUIM and put star washers there too. After 60K miles, I KNOW they have had a little electrochemistry make their day...
For those of you keeping score at home, ECU pin 4A and B are combined, listed as ECU Ground output (whatever the hell THAT means!), and grounded at the back of the UIM. See page C-86 in the almighty manual (93 is my flavor) It is part of the harness that also contolls ALL of the solenoids. Right. 4C is listed as the CPU ground, and is located under the UIM, along the engine centerline. See page C-84. Lastly, there is 4D, the input ground. This is the point where the oil metering pump, EGR switch, throttle sensor, water thermosensor, intake temp sensor, fuel thermosensor, and pressure sensor all get their ground. Presumably, these sensors' "ground" value is referenced against what the ECU sees as ground via the CPU lead (4C) and the ECU adjusts parameters accordingly. Thus, even a little resistance between battery ground and the engine (going through two housing interfaces as well!) will make this reference incorrect. Note that the coil packs and wires run near the 4C ground, and these are the noisiest part of any engine (electromagnetic stray field from wires is HELL to control, and that's with standard "supression core" wire. Ever heard solid core through your radio? YUCK!), and that's where Nathan's point is so well taken! Star washers for EVERYBODY (as opposed to colonics. 12 Monkeys ROCKED!!)
All hail the mightly manual
12-01-02, 11:07 PM
#20
Blow up or win
Thread Starter
Nathan - you got it bro!
Thanks - this make the antenna idea you suggested crystal clear. Shielding is VERY important. I've used metal and teflon specified encapsulated wires for temperature sending units before and now I know why it is so important. It seems like this would be the utlimate wire for this situation, unfortunately it is obscenely expensive. I have a sense that the sheer bulk and density of the multi-strand copper wire would make up for the lack of shielding to stray background interference...
So, what I need to do is NEVER drag race under flourescent lights for pink slips
Thanks - this make the antenna idea you suggested crystal clear. Shielding is VERY important. I've used metal and teflon specified encapsulated wires for temperature sending units before and now I know why it is so important. It seems like this would be the utlimate wire for this situation, unfortunately it is obscenely expensive. I have a sense that the sheer bulk and density of the multi-strand copper wire would make up for the lack of shielding to stray background interference...
So, what I need to do is NEVER drag race under flourescent lights for pink slips
12-01-02, 11:20 PM
#21
Blow up or win
Thread Starter
Originally posted by spurvo
Failyah ta camuunkate...
I wonder how many of those who like the song Civil War by G-N-R have seen Cool Hand Luke? I KNOW you have, Ron. 50 eggs? I almost puked myself first time I saw that!
BTW, any pics or data from your ghetto cooling setup?
Thread Hijack!! RUN!!
I want to go after those ground points under theUIM and put star washers there too. After 60K miles, I KNOW they have had a little electrochemistry make their day...
For those of you keeping score at home, ECU pin 4A and B are combined, listed as ECU Ground output (whatever the hell THAT means!), and grounded at the back of the UIM. See page C-86 in the almighty manual (93 is my flavor) It is part of the harness that also contolls ALL of the solenoids. Right. 4C is listed as the CPU ground, and is located under the UIM, along the engine centerline. See page C-84. Lastly, there is 4D, the input ground. This is the point where the oil metering pump, EGR switch, throttle sensor, water thermosensor, intake temp sensor, fuel thermosensor, and pressure sensor all get their ground. Presumably, these sensors' "ground" value is referenced against what the ECU sees as ground via the CPU lead (4C) and the ECU adjusts parameters accordingly. Thus, even a little resistance between battery ground and the engine (going through two housing interfaces as well!) will make this reference incorrect. Note that the coil packs and wires run near the 4C ground, and these are the noisiest part of any engine (electromagnetic stray field from wires is HELL to control, and that's with standard "supression core" wire. Ever heard solid core through your radio? YUCK!), and that's where Nathan's point is so well taken! Star washers for EVERYBODY (as opposed to colonics. 12 Monkeys ROCKED!!)
All hail the mightly manual
Failyah ta camuunkate...
I wonder how many of those who like the song Civil War by G-N-R have seen Cool Hand Luke? I KNOW you have, Ron. 50 eggs? I almost puked myself first time I saw that!
BTW, any pics or data from your ghetto cooling setup?
Thread Hijack!! RUN!!
I want to go after those ground points under theUIM and put star washers there too. After 60K miles, I KNOW they have had a little electrochemistry make their day...
For those of you keeping score at home, ECU pin 4A and B are combined, listed as ECU Ground output (whatever the hell THAT means!), and grounded at the back of the UIM. See page C-86 in the almighty manual (93 is my flavor) It is part of the harness that also contolls ALL of the solenoids. Right. 4C is listed as the CPU ground, and is located under the UIM, along the engine centerline. See page C-84. Lastly, there is 4D, the input ground. This is the point where the oil metering pump, EGR switch, throttle sensor, water thermosensor, intake temp sensor, fuel thermosensor, and pressure sensor all get their ground. Presumably, these sensors' "ground" value is referenced against what the ECU sees as ground via the CPU lead (4C) and the ECU adjusts parameters accordingly. Thus, even a little resistance between battery ground and the engine (going through two housing interfaces as well!) will make this reference incorrect. Note that the coil packs and wires run near the 4C ground, and these are the noisiest part of any engine (electromagnetic stray field from wires is HELL to control, and that's with standard "supression core" wire. Ever heard solid core through your radio? YUCK!), and that's where Nathan's point is so well taken! Star washers for EVERYBODY (as opposed to colonics. 12 Monkeys ROCKED!!)
All hail the mightly manual
RE: Are you referring to my ghetto mod where the naca ducts are used for sucking hot air out of the engine bay?
It works awesome, and I would bet serious money much better than ANY of the vented hoods especially at high speeds since you are not disturbing laminar flow OVER the hood. After all, that's what the ducts were designed to do in the first place! Do I have any data?
Not only no, but HELL no! (I really need to set up some sort of wind tunnel in my garage).
All hail the mighty CHIN! The guy was a genius and we all deserve to pay homage to him...
12-01-02, 11:22 PM
#22
don't race, don't need to
Flybye: My audiophile head rears itself...
Multi strand (audio type, has say 50 strands) 4 gauge wire and automotive not-so-many strands (16 or so)should not matter between them. They will both have similar resistance profiles with respect to DC current. AC current is another story. We have found (transformer manufacturing plant that deals with high (REAL HIGH) end audio transformers) that the multi stranded solder tinned (looks silver) wire will exhibit less skin effect at high frequency signal (10K Hz and up. REAL problem at 200K, righ where switch mode power supplies like to operate. But I digress...), but we aren't dealing with that here. We HAVE found multistrand wire to have better electromagnetic noise rejection in ground plane connections, so if Nathan's ideas are correct and we have interferance problems along with resistance problems, then the multi strand would make sense. Off hand, I would guess (there went MY credibility!) that the battery to chassis wire (the local connection) is too short to matter. The long connection to the engine from the battery is RIPE for interferance, and might want to be multistrand if you are ****. The engine to body connection at the back of the UIM is also good for the multistrand.
I cannot stress too much the importance a solid connection will play however. Just crimping ring connectors to bare copper lead (which is EXACTLY what Mazda did on these cars!!!) is the WORST type of connection to be made. Corrosion will interfere with this connection and increase resistance, guarenteed. Soldering to the connector, scraping the area to connect, and using a star washer is the second best you can do. The best is to weld the wire to the body and/or engine block. I would consider this... inellegant.
cheers!
Multi strand (audio type, has say 50 strands) 4 gauge wire and automotive not-so-many strands (16 or so)should not matter between them. They will both have similar resistance profiles with respect to DC current. AC current is another story. We have found (transformer manufacturing plant that deals with high (REAL HIGH) end audio transformers) that the multi stranded solder tinned (looks silver) wire will exhibit less skin effect at high frequency signal (10K Hz and up. REAL problem at 200K, righ where switch mode power supplies like to operate. But I digress...), but we aren't dealing with that here. We HAVE found multistrand wire to have better electromagnetic noise rejection in ground plane connections, so if Nathan's ideas are correct and we have interferance problems along with resistance problems, then the multi strand would make sense. Off hand, I would guess (there went MY credibility!) that the battery to chassis wire (the local connection) is too short to matter. The long connection to the engine from the battery is RIPE for interferance, and might want to be multistrand if you are ****. The engine to body connection at the back of the UIM is also good for the multistrand.
I cannot stress too much the importance a solid connection will play however. Just crimping ring connectors to bare copper lead (which is EXACTLY what Mazda did on these cars!!!) is the WORST type of connection to be made. Corrosion will interfere with this connection and increase resistance, guarenteed. Soldering to the connector, scraping the area to connect, and using a star washer is the second best you can do. The best is to weld the wire to the body and/or engine block. I would consider this... inellegant.
cheers!
12-01-02, 11:25 PM
#23
don't race, don't need to
Totally agree with Chin being "mastah off awrr" Man, I suck!!
I'm ordering a high temp probe to measure turbo housing temps at different conditions, especially on the freeway where the t-stat is closed. I'll post the numbers when I can. Then we'll compare lengths. Hee hee.. Still want pics of the ducting
I'm ordering a high temp probe to measure turbo housing temps at different conditions, especially on the freeway where the t-stat is closed. I'll post the numbers when I can. Then we'll compare lengths. Hee hee.. Still want pics of the ducting
12-01-02, 11:32 PM
#24
Blow up or win
Thread Starter
Originally posted by spurvo
Flybye: My audiophile head rears itself...
Multi strand (audio type, has say 50 strands) 4 gauge wire and automotive not-so-many strands (16 or so)should not matter between them. They will both have similar resistance profiles with respect to DC current. AC current is another story. We have found (transformer manufacturing plant that deals with high (REAL HIGH) end audio transformers) that the multi stranded solder tinned (looks silver) wire will exhibit less skin effect at high frequency signal (10K Hz and up. REAL problem at 200K, righ where switch mode power supplies like to operate. But I digress...), but we aren't dealing with that here. We HAVE found multistrand wire to have better electromagnetic noise rejection in ground plane connections, so if Nathan's ideas are correct and we have interferance problems along with resistance problems, then the multi strand would make sense. Off hand, I would guess (there went MY credibility!) that the battery to chassis wire (the local connection) is too short to matter. The long connection to the engine from the battery is RIPE for interferance, and might want to be multistrand if you are ****. The engine to body connection at the back of the UIM is also good for the multistrand.
I cannot stress too much the importance a solid connection will play however. Just crimping ring connectors to bare copper lead (which is EXACTLY what Mazda did on these cars!!!) is the WORST type of connection to be made. Corrosion will interfere with this connection and increase resistance, guarenteed. Soldering to the connector, scraping the area to connect, and using a star washer is the second best you can do. The best is to weld the wire to the body and/or engine block. I would consider this... inellegant.
cheers!
Flybye: My audiophile head rears itself...
Multi strand (audio type, has say 50 strands) 4 gauge wire and automotive not-so-many strands (16 or so)should not matter between them. They will both have similar resistance profiles with respect to DC current. AC current is another story. We have found (transformer manufacturing plant that deals with high (REAL HIGH) end audio transformers) that the multi stranded solder tinned (looks silver) wire will exhibit less skin effect at high frequency signal (10K Hz and up. REAL problem at 200K, righ where switch mode power supplies like to operate. But I digress...), but we aren't dealing with that here. We HAVE found multistrand wire to have better electromagnetic noise rejection in ground plane connections, so if Nathan's ideas are correct and we have interferance problems along with resistance problems, then the multi strand would make sense. Off hand, I would guess (there went MY credibility!) that the battery to chassis wire (the local connection) is too short to matter. The long connection to the engine from the battery is RIPE for interferance, and might want to be multistrand if you are ****. The engine to body connection at the back of the UIM is also good for the multistrand.
I cannot stress too much the importance a solid connection will play however. Just crimping ring connectors to bare copper lead (which is EXACTLY what Mazda did on these cars!!!) is the WORST type of connection to be made. Corrosion will interfere with this connection and increase resistance, guarenteed. Soldering to the connector, scraping the area to connect, and using a star washer is the second best you can do. The best is to weld the wire to the body and/or engine block. I would consider this... inellegant.
cheers!
I DID use 8 and 12 gauge just for fun, and the swaged and soldered connectors I fabricated fit the bill. Now I need to go back and throw on some star washers for some extra "bite". Hey, nothing wrong with being **** retentive.
I got lucky.....good knowing there are some guys here that actually know what the hell is goin' on - kudos to our rocket scientists!
12-01-02, 11:34 PM
#25
Blow up or win
Thread Starter
Originally posted by spurvo
Totally agree with Chin being "mastah off awrr" Man, I suck!!
I'm ordering a high temp probe to measure turbo housing temps at different conditions, especially on the freeway where the t-stat is closed. I'll post the numbers when I can. Then we'll compare lengths. Hee hee.. Still want pics of the ducting
Totally agree with Chin being "mastah off awrr" Man, I suck!!
I'm ordering a high temp probe to measure turbo housing temps at different conditions, especially on the freeway where the t-stat is closed. I'll post the numbers when I can. Then we'll compare lengths. Hee hee.. Still want pics of the ducting