DCrosby

I based my descision to go V on the fact that I like well thought out setups. The stock setup with that 1" X 4" scoop for the IC and intake is laughable... I'm suprised they bothered to put an IC on the FD... that slot isn't enough to feed the Intake, let allone cool intake charges on the track....

The fact that both the rad and the ic get sufficient air, and the intake is well fed as well, ....... what else do you need !? In my mind SMIC is going to have IC issues in comparrison, and FMIC is going to have poorer cooling for the engine.... so this isn't as good of an IC as FMIC and not as good as SMIC and Koyo for cooling... possibly.

It sure does both better than the downsides of both setups...

I can't post HP numbers as I'm still having turbo issues, and don't have my 1300's and AEM in yet, but with stock ecu, when moving faster than 20mph, I get 180-195 F for coolant temp, and my probe sits on the engine side of the thermometer....
Time will tell how much Boost I'll make with the AEM and V-Mount on the stockers before I get mild detonation... I expect a min. of 14. and I'm shooting for 16. hopefully we can meet in the middle and get 15 psi... reliably with pump gas.. (91 Oct.)

Constructive questions welcome...

-DC

P.S. I'd like to mention when in traffic, with stock ecu and sensor it does hit 230, but as soon as I activate the AC fans, it goes right back down to 185 F within less than 1 Minute... (approx. 20 sec.)

vspecpgt

haha, sorry, i meant to put a smiley by "fool" it wasn't meant to sound like i thought you didn't know anything.....

chuck makes a duct for the normal vmount that seals up all the holes in the "V", i've got the monster and there really isn't any areas where air could leave, maybe a small bit in the back, but other wise it goes from rail to rail...

as for the escape chamber, thats why i like rotary extremes vmount better than the hks one.... chucks sits at an angle while hks's is much more flat... if you are still using the stock under plastic thingy( i don't have mine anymore) it might not have enough space to clear quickly. since chucks sits at more of an angle it would there by make more room.....

between stock mount and vmount i think the radiator gets the same amount of air... just at a backwards angle... the intercooler however is different, you get much more air, since you don't have to use a small vent, plus with the heat soaking issue, the radiator actually blows hot air onto a stock mount where as a vmount just sits above it.... also, at a different angle and not just right on top of it parallel .

and my guess is that a vented hood would work a little better just for the intercooler because it would suck the air out.... i mean it does work the same kinda way on a stock mount, but if you are getting more air to the intercooler wouldn't you be able to suck more out?

darkside7

iTrader: (12)

tell me if i'm wrong, but from my understanding, i though ic with proper ducts can flow 20% more air than ic with one. mind you, the inlet of a proper duct only has to be 1/4 the size of the ic core area. with this, and a vented hood, there should be no problems with ic issue as metioned by DCrosby.

rynberg

Exactly Kevin's point. The undertray serves more than one purpose on this car -- to force air through the radiator, to protect the engine from road debris, and to provide smoother airflow under the car.

You are making a poor decision to not run the tray. No one running the car on the track (which the v-mount is designed for, you certainly don't need it on the street) is going to not run the tray.

Put the tray back on and see how that changes your temps. If you aren't on the track, atleast do some heavy and hard boosting. Highway driving doesn't stress the cooling system at all unless you are going up steep hills in hot weather.

Zero R

iTrader: (1)

Kevin you make some good points and anyone here who knows of you knows your knowledgeable but I just don't know why you choose to argue this so much no disrespect but it almost seems like your out to disprove Chucks product more than anything,maybe because he copied someone elses design, maybe something else who knows, all your points are good but there is the otherside. True you have to divide up the pieces of the pie, but I will take a well ducted v-mount over the ridiculous slot the stock or all stock mounts feed from. As far as sealing goes I have yet to see one single car with a ASP/M2/Pettit where the duct fits on the core correctly they all are short about the first inch of the core which is a pretty important part of the core, the all have gaps that will let air out the driver side because the ducting is shifted one way, they never fit right. The heat soak issue has more to do with the very silly idea of having fans blow hot air on the IC core and ducting than just having the core on top of the radiator, lets not even get into the fact how much are the radiator fans being blocked by the ducting itself, very poor. The cost is really not that big a difference add the cost of a large SMIC and upgraded radiator setup and you'll see. I have been running my own V-mount for years started putting it together in 99 never marketed it, to your credit I do use the M2 core because it was very eff. I just couldn't live with all the compromises of a stock mount setup. A good arguement for the ignorant would be checkout and see how many actual pro cars in the JGTC have run v-mount setups, they are track proven.Pleaase don't take this personal it just seems you are hell bent on disproving there worth.


-Sean

DCrosby

My problem, like most people's it that the previous owner must have used the car as a rally car since the undertray is all "F" 'ed up... so no undertray.... but I don't see why the airflow would be any worse, the Rad is pointing in the other direction... so it's in effect pushing air under the engine... the part of it that doesn't leak from below and makes it through the rad, which should make it more efficint... allthough, I agree debris are an issue, but I don't drive offroad... and where I drive plastic bags are the biggest and most troubblesome debris for the Rad...

rynberg

When you are blasting down the straight at Buttonwillow or Thunderhill, the last thing you want to worry about is compromised aerodynamics. If you never hit speeds over 100mph, I guess that's not an issue.

As far as the debris goes, I would worry way too much about a rock or something damaging a hose or line.

DCrosby

I don't quite see how a piece of badly constructed cardboard / (AKA) cheap plastic is going to improve aerodynamics, with a radiator that is jutting into the airflow going under the car, I think you're trying to rationalize that the airflow is disrupted from stock, which is correct, but I'm uncertain that stock is an improvement over this.
Besides that point, I think airflow over the rear is much more of a concern than airflow over the front, and when you say 100+ mph you mean what 110 !? cause I haven't been able to get to much more than that on my slightly modded '94 setup anyhow.. it's not like buttenwillow is an oval with amazing top speeds....

But maybe I'm just some crazed guy for thinking I can improve on mazda's IC setup

LetsGO7

iTrader: (2)

i think v-mount (VMIC) is a street to drift trend...for FMIC or SMIC is pure race (circuit) setup.

As mentioned, my previous post will answer how i got this reasoning. Also rynberg pointed out my point about the aero being important at the track.

DCrosby, piece of plastic can improve or mess up the aero alot. How?! for example the undertray, pretty smooth but without it, the air bounces all over. the tray is guiding the air. Another example....Apex-i filters, the pointy cone thing inside is guiding the air into the turbo.

You can look at it this way...Get a hose...stray two areas, one with smooth glass surface and other with broken glass piece....as you may find out, the water travels clean and sharp at the non broken surface.

-joe

vspecpgt

i agree about the ducting if your car is just a race car.... but i really just drive mine on the street... plus with the radiator turned the other way, i think it is better to not have the tray and allow all the hot air to escape....

plus i don't have the stock front bumper.... so i can't really use the tray anyway....

oh also, i agree with dcrosby, biggest road debris is plastic bags, how is a rock or something going to fly up and hit a hose or line? unless it was bouncing off a truck landed on the ground and happened to fly up right under your car.... otherwise, your tires are on the side of the car and a rock couldn't get to the engine....

POM HB

ZeroR (Sean),

Well said!!!!!!!!

POM HB

Zero R

iTrader: (1)

I think you mean the other way around, I certainly wouldn't want a big fat heat exchanger infront of my radiator while doing circuit racing. SMIC maybe. V-mount setups were developed on the track, if anything you wont see the real benifits of this setup until you've been running around lapping for awhile.Most of the people on the street who just drive their cars around don't really need to have a V-mount setup. It's more about having the coolest, neatest, shiny setup and being able to say hey this is what the racecars use. As far as the whole undertray thing It certainly is important to keep airflow under the car clean but there is no reason you can't run it with a v-mount setup. It isn't being blocked up that much more than SMIC setups, I would even bet less.

-Sean

rotaryextreme

iTrader: (2)

Why is vmount better than SMIC? This question has been brought up so many times and I have answered them in many threads and clear things up many times but let me do it again here.

1. No matter how big the IC duct look at the back where it meets up with the intercooler, the front section where it takes in the air is only 2"x6" at most. It's not positioned directly to the air stream either. It's more in a 45 degree position. Trev who is a closed friend with Kevin Wyum made a special duct with larger opening to improve the cooling characteristic of the ASP IC a couple of years ago. If there isn't any improvement with a larger duct, I don't think he would spend the time to do it. The Vmount IC will get more air than a stock mount IC duct's 2"X6" slot no matter how you look at it.

2. The V mount does not require to you take off the underpanel. I don't know why people think you have to when it's not ever mentioned on the website. The radiator is actually more efficient than the stock position. If you look at the stock setup, the exist is blocked by the IC duct, air box, and battery tray. There is actually more room between the underpanel and the v mount radiator than the stock mount set up. I will say the stock radiator creates more turbulence than the v mount because the air can't really get out. I will not be surprised there is more air flow through the radiator than the stock setup as mentioned by Zero R who had the ASP large before and then modified it into V mount.

3. When you want to argue about aerodynamic, I can't tell you because I don't have access to a wind tunnel. But I have taken my car up to 180 mph with the vmount and without the underpanel and I am still sitting here. It doesn't matter at this piont because you can use the underpanel with v mount.

4. V mount concept is developed on the track. 90% of the JGTC cars use vmount. The competitors include viper, Mclaren F1, Porsche, etc. I don't think the JGTC race teams will put something that does not work so they will lose the race, will they? If the concept is good enough for JGTC cars, it's good enough for any RX7 on the track and on the road. I don't think there is even one competitor with SMIC at the race.

5. A properly designed v mount will cool the charged air equally or even better than a front mount IC but at the same time, you don't have to worry about overheating problem. Vspecvgt's comment can verify that.

6. Any IC will heat soak if you give it enough time. The main factors are how long it takes to be heat soaked and how long it takes to recover.

7. The cost of vmount isn't that much more than a stock mount IC with a upgraded radiator. An ASP IC is $1500 + $450 for an upgraded radiator = $1950. The regular vmount at the price of $2350 is only $400 more. The extra cost goes to the extra components needed.

Chuck Huang
http://www.rotaryextreme.com

LetsGO7

iTrader: (2)

I don't think the competitors like the viper, Mclaren F1, and Porsche are TURBOcharged? ARE THEY? if so...if they use the V-mount then the setup concept is well practiced.

But I'm guessing they are not. Cars like Sard, TOm, and other Supras are turboed. 500 class is 500hp cars and 300 class is 300hp. They don't have to be turboed.

RE-Amamiya's 7 is a 3 rotor NA with a tall radiator sloped like the stock radiator position. But hey...what do i know? I don't own a shop nor own a small manufacturing shop, but I know one thing...the FASTEST FD (Turbo 2 rotor engine) is running a FMIC! Whose is it? RE-Amamiya, their time attack car. It sat numerous FASTEST time at the track, NO VMIC there.

VMIC is great but it's not PROVEN on a RX7, FMIC and SMIC are. I don't know if everbody knows Foko's car (sold but anyhow), he didn't run VMIC.

Corsse (the guy with HKS VMIC) had good numbers and i know that he will keep on giving us the progress on the VMIC setup.

I was looking through RE-Amamiya site and ran into there VMIC setup...they wrote that the VMIC is a good street to circuit setup but i don't see Ama san using it on there time attack car.

I was reading the January Issue of Revspeed (those don't know, it's a japanese car mag, like option but i think it's better because it has more setup news and impressions.), anyhow, they had a "SETTING" article on few cars, one of which was an FD (Fujita's). I can't remember what it said about VMIC (i will post what they had to say about that) but Fujita still promotes there FMIC.

Should i shut up or should i find that mag. and post the engine setting check point by Fujita?



-joe

Beast From The East

Lecturing Kevin Wyum about rotary performance, and intercoolers in particular, is sort of like explaining Newtonian physics to ..., well .... Sir Isaac Newton.....do you KNOW who Kevin is? He's like the Thomas Jefferson of rotary modification.....and probably forgotten more about rotary cars than you'll ever learn.

I saw from your second post that you may have just been joshing him with the 'fool' comment, but when it comes to intercoolers, my money's on Kevin.....

Beast

PS - nice to hear Trev's name mentioned by Chuck. Losing him was a major loss to the rotary community.

Cossie

The v mount setup has worked well for me.
I had went to Laguna Seca during the same time of the year to see the difference.
My previous setup was stock twins with a PFC SMIC and the duct.

Temps had dropped alot and they remained in the mid to high 30s(intake temps) while the water temps hovered around the mid to high 80s

I think the great drop in temps were due larger to the single turbo and v mount working together.

I have nothing against the various v mounts and I think it is a system that works. The problem is with people stating "facts" about various v mounts and it's function and fitment without even seeing or owning one.

This is a classic example....

rotaryextreme

iTrader: (2)

1. I want to point out the misconception on calculation the efficency of an intercooler. It's not as simple as intake temp out of the intercooler minus the ambient temp. The equation is:

effcieicny = (Compressor outlet temp - temp existing the intercooer) / (compressor outlet temp - ambient temp)

We will use Cossie's data in this case. Ambient temp at 55F is 13C. Cossie has the same turbo T04R as my car so I will use the data I got from my intake temp gauge. When I run the car hard, the intake temp goes up to 350F which is about 180C.

Cossie's intercooler efficiency: (180-30)/(180-13) = 90%

2. It's extremely easy to compare heat soak data on the intercooler core itself. All you need is a blowdryer and a timer. Measure the ambient temp. Put a temp probe on one end of the intercooler outlet. Stick the blowdyer into the other outlet and turn it on and start the timer at the same time. Measure how long it takes for the air from the temp probe outlet to each X temp. Do the same for the other intercooler core and see how long it takes to reach X temp from the outlet. The one that reaches X temp faster will heat soak faster. Sounds pretty ghetto but all the variables are fixed except the intercooler.

3. To compare different intercooler setups on cars, all you need is a big fan such as the one used on the dyno that has enough flow rate and air speed to simulate actual driving. Use two temp probes, one in the intercooler outlet pipe and one in the intercooler inlet pipe. Measure the ambient temp. Bring the rpm up to 6000-7000 rpm. Start the fan and measure the temps at the inlet and outlet of the intercooler after 1-2 min. This test will be more accurate than comparing two different cars on the track because all the factors that will affect intercooler efficiency are fixed. The air flow into the mouth of the bumper is fixed due to the constant flow rate of the fan. The load of the engine is fixed since both cars are just reved to 6000 rpm at neutral so we can assume the air flow rate through the intercooler should be equal on both cars.

Instead of arguing here, I am more than willing to invite all the people with different IC's to do a comprehensive testing in a controlled environment, on the street, or on the track. All the misconceptions should be stopped once and for all. If you are in the Bayarea, CA and you have an ASP/M2, APEX, HKS, Greddy, Blitz intercooler, and you want to contribute to this testing, please email me at rotaryextreme@aol.com. Thank you.

Chuck Huang
http://www.rotaryextreme.com

Cossie

I am at most speedventures/unlimitedlaps/greenflag track events in the Bay Area.

There is one coming up at LS and Thunderhill this coming weekend if anyone is interested.

Kevin T. Wyum

"...but I just don't know why you choose to argue this so much no disrespect but it almost seems like your out to disprove Chucks..."

I'm sorry but my first post in this thread started as follows. "I'm not talking about the quality or function of Vmounts so let's not go there but why in the world are people talking and actually bragging it seems about temperatures on the highway after driving for 3 hours as testimony about Intercoolers?" I don't know where this persecution complex is coming from for some people but please keep me out of it. I'm really not "out to get Chuck." As I've said before I'm sure Chuck makes wonderful products. Talking about general theory on different concepts and approaches doesn't mean I'm insulting anyone or saying their product is crap.

As for ducts not lining up on the ASP IC. (bonk) They line up great. Some of the people making copies of the Medium mistakenly used the wrong drivers side end tank, a tapered one instead of the correct rectangular one for that side. I think that's what you must be talking about since it causes a large gap. The other thing is some vendors shift the IC one way or the other from its correct position to make it fit with their particular air intakes or some battery kits. Unfortunately the flexibility of the kit and peoples use of it is resulting in your claiming the kit is faulty which it is in fact not. The fault is in its flexibility in mounting which I thought was a good thing. Oh well.

I noticed there was some price talk but of course there was no mention of the install time or labor cost factored in there. Some of the front mounts and I assume the Vmount as well require upwards of 12+ hours to install compared to 1+ hours to install an SMIC. At $60 cheap shop rates that's an extra ~$700 in just the installation.

Since I'm typing I'd like to also note you mentioned the opening size of the SMIC's as being a problem and how much more air a Vmount intercooler would get. As I tried to point out in that general discussion the amount of air entering the nose area is finite. If you send X more through the intercooler that means your sending X less through the radiator. Yes of course there will be adjustments to that general concept as I mentioned but the simplified model I'm mentioning above still generally holds true with adjustment for more complex mechanics.
Again the pie is a fixed size, if you take a big peice somewhere it means you have less to use elsewhere.


Well fun discussion so far, although for a few people I'd like to request that you please take part in a civil discourse, don't go off the deep end with black helicopter stuff about people being out to get you or your pal.

Sincerely,

Kevin T. Wyum

P.S. Trev, may he rest in peace did want to improve on the ducting system. It was far more labor intensive and required things like moving the radiator and fuse box etc. Trust me, he didn't do it because he thought it was some major failing of the intercooler. He did it because he wanted to tie in the air intake and yes make an improvement to the IC at the expense of simplicity that he could call his own. He wanted to make his mark and I think he was really heading in a good direction unfortunately he didn't get to complete it.

rotaryextreme

iTrader: (2)

I am saying the turbocharged cars use the vmount and the competitors in the JGTC include Viper, McLaren F1, and Porsche just to show JGTC is a serious race event. Not too many people in the US know what JGTC is. When did I ever say those cars are turbocharged.

If you want to talk about RE Amemiya car and FEED car, both use the FMIC. What do they have to do with SMIC and how does that show SMIC is race proven?

How is Vmount not proven on FD when all the other shops in Japan use it on their track cars? There are at least 20 different v mounts from different companies in Japan.

How about D1? The APEX D1 car uses the Vmount and it's ranked number 1. Drifting requires more cooling since the car goes side ways.

Since you have access to Japanese magazine, buy the Hyper Rev Vol. 91 and see how many featured FD's have v mounts.

Chuck Huang
http://www.rotaryextreme.com

rotaryextreme

iTrader: (2)

This has nothing to do with the subject but just out of curiosity, did M2 make their own ASP IC while they were authorized or you were making those for them all along? What happened with your deal with M2?

V mount does take longer to install because radiator is part of the kit. If you install the ASP large, upgraded stock mount radiator, and relocate the battery to the trunk, the time it takes should be about the same, am I right?

I actually brought up that concept on frontal area a while back in a vmount thread. The problem with the SMIC is that the IC duct limits how much air it will go into the intercooler with that 2"x6" slot. With Vmount, you can easily vary the amount of air going into each component by using shields but you can't do that with a SMIC. If you upgrade the front end with an aftermarket one with larger opening, you are not going to get more air into that 2"x6" slot. Yes, you will get more air into the radiator but it will not improve the cooling efficiency on the SMIC. So no matter what you do, that 2"x6" slot is the bottle neck. On the contrary, you can improve the cooling charateristic of IC and radiator at the same time with the aftermarket front end. You have a bigger pie to divide.

Trev made that duct to incoporate the cold air intake and at the same time, he did make the opening of the IC duct at least 2 times larger. If you can demostrate a IC duct with larger opening will not improve the cooling characteristic of the SMIC, then his effort would not be necessary. I will not be absolute by saying a SMIC does not work and it's failing. If it is, Trev will not try to keep the SMIC concept by using a better duct with larger opening but his effort shows that there is definitely an improvement going with a larger duct.

Chuck Huang

LetsGO7

iTrader: (2)

Chuck,

I'm just pointing out the setups.

I did say (first) that Ama and Fuji uses FMIC (why do you retype it like i said something wrong, about FUji's and RE-amaiya's set up). quote by ME....

----"I was looking through RE-Amamiya site and ran into there VMIC setup...they wrote that the VMIC is a good street to circuit setup but i don't see Ama san using it on there time attack car."

----"I was reading the January Issue of Revspeed (those don't know, it's a japanese car mag, like option but i think it's better because it has more setup news and impressions.), anyhow, they had a "SETTING" article on few cars, one of which was an FD (Fujita's). I can't remember what it said about VMIC (i will post what they had to say about that) but Fujita still promotes there FMIC."

Maybe i wrote it wrong....FOKO's car yellow FD which is sold. He ran a SMIC. He ran with great results and ran long sessions.

I am aware of the different types of v-mounts as well...

You write and assume as if I don't know anything about Japanese market, i know that you import pretty good japanese products and know alot but that doesn't mean I don't know. Which isn't true...I think i know enough...

I'm not trying to put a bad image on your Product but i am trying to point out what has VMIC done to FDs. Compare to FMIC, vmic is struggling. RE-Amamiya vs. PanSpeed (runs VMIC), Amamiya came out top.

Also I think i may have said something wrong about the VMIC.

I will re-state, on a FD NO shop came close with a SMIC nor VMIC to set a track record like the RE-Amamiya's "FMIC" track car. PanSpeed is one the first shops to have V-mount setup on the FD.

Don't try to assume stuff dude, I know what's going around in japan (maybe not second to second). JGTC, I never said anything wrong about the series. I used to follow it for the series after 99 season (the MR2 won that YEAR@!@ hell yes, yes i like the mr2) I stopped following the series. But i'm sure the classes are the same...

Well i'm done here. FMIC VMIC and SMIC all works...people need to make the choice.

user 9348703

Popular on some Curcuit cars here but not really compared with the FMIC. With BUTT LOADS of ducting to make it work proper and with a custom hood, its a nice idea for Curcuit, other then that they are all FMICs in race and street cars here.

V-mounts are made by

JAPAN******
RE-Amemiya
HKS
Panspeed
Knightsports
FAM Speed
R-magic
Few others too.

US*
Rotary Extreme is the only one I know about.

rotaryextreme

iTrader: (2)

Joe:

I don't know why you are so defensive but I never said you don't know anything about what's happening in Japan. Obviously you demostrate you know something by talking about RE-A, FEED, etc. On the contrary, you try to prove that I don't know jack by misleading people to think I said the viper and McLaren F1 are turbocharged.

If you think a simple FMIC can demostrate why RE-A's car is the fastest on the Tsukuba track, you forgot that there are many things to contribute to their win. Maybe their suspension setup? Their aerodynamic? Their driver? How come Panspeed comes second? Why not all the cars with FMIC take all the top places since FMIC is the best on track? But if the majority of track cars at the race all choose a particular setup, that should tell you something.

BTW, panspeed isn't the first shop to use Vmount on the FD. Knight Sports is.

Chuck Huang

LetsGO7

iTrader: (2)

Chuck Sorry for being so defensive. I'm not trying to put a bad mouth on you. Can we be friends?!

I didn't know Knight Speed was the first to use the VMIC?! If i remember right, around 4 years ago...Panspeed was promoting there VMIC circuit car and at the time, knight sport showed there demo car with that twin core SMIC setup.

You bring in all these different variables like drivers and suspension. But we are talking about IC setups...the winning pakage, am i wrong? In order to find out the we must go straight into the IC setup alone. Why, how about the other setups. Panspeed and RE Amamiya are pretty up there compare to other shops. (Ama being little more money and supported, trust, aspara drinks and list goes on.) But suspension, it's ohlins vs. quantums and drives might be in the same level...RE-Amamiya uses a Super Taikyu series driver (I think he drives the number 15 or 14 FD in class 3). Let's don't get into that...

I was just talking about the IC setup. I see the FMIC with more success, that's all.

Sorry **** you off Chuck.

-joe