Where is everyone on their upgraded twins projects?
10-16-02, 05:39 PM
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Originally posted by FEARED7
Whats up all. SPOautos is getting the BNR Secret weapon turbos. We have to get his project on the road before the 8th of november b/c of the SE RX7 meeting! Cant wait to see what they do!!!
Later all.
Bryan
www.bnrsupercars.com
Whats up all. SPOautos is getting the BNR Secret weapon turbos. We have to get his project on the road before the 8th of november b/c of the SE RX7 meeting! Cant wait to see what they do!!!
Later all.
Bryan
www.bnrsupercars.com
Bryan, is he the only person to get the Secret Weapon?
10-16-02, 07:41 PM
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my car is finally in for the break upgrade...and new solonoids to fix the seq probs I was having.
should be done by friday...
the last remaining piece is the 3bar map sensor and then another day of fuel tuning....then its dyno time!
woo hoo...soon soon soon
j
should be done by friday...
the last remaining piece is the 3bar map sensor and then another day of fuel tuning....then its dyno time!
woo hoo...soon soon soon
j
11-26-02, 03:47 PM
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Here's my upgraded twins w/dyno
https://www.rx7club.com/forum/showth...5&pagenumber=3
Cross-posted. I'm in the same boat as artguy - just got my 3 bar and getting ready to install and tune it.
This dyno was before I did some timing changes that I KNOW have increased my torque and bhp. Also have done some fuel improvements so I'm hoping for 350 rwhp at 16 lbs.
Beast
Cross-posted. I'm in the same boat as artguy - just got my 3 bar and getting ready to install and tune it.
This dyno was before I did some timing changes that I KNOW have increased my torque and bhp. Also have done some fuel improvements so I'm hoping for 350 rwhp at 16 lbs.
Beast
11-26-02, 04:03 PM
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Re: Here's my upgraded twins w/dyno
Originally posted by Beast From The East
https://www.rx7club.com/forum/showth...5&pagenumber=3
Cross-posted. I'm in the same boat as artguy - just got my 3 bar and getting ready to install and tune it.
This dyno was before I did some timing changes that I KNOW have increased my torque and bhp. Also have done some fuel improvements so I'm hoping for 350 rwhp at 16 lbs.
Beast
https://www.rx7club.com/forum/showth...5&pagenumber=3
Cross-posted. I'm in the same boat as artguy - just got my 3 bar and getting ready to install and tune it.
This dyno was before I did some timing changes that I KNOW have increased my torque and bhp. Also have done some fuel improvements so I'm hoping for 350 rwhp at 16 lbs.
Beast
I'm not tryin' to rain on your parade, but I dynoed at 315.8 @ 12 psi with stock twins that have 152K miles. you hope for 350 @ 16 psi? I see no advantage of your setup other than MAYBE you can run more boost than me.
11-26-02, 04:41 PM
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No rain here - no offense taken, either
I'm sure you did. Those are good numbers at those boost levels with stock turbos (I'm assuming stock porting, too). Mine is a stock port as well.
There are quite a few other things to take into consideration, most importantly the type of dyno used. Were your numbers taken on a dynojet vs. a dynapak (rollers vs. bolt to the hub)? It is my understanding that the same car on a dynojet makes bigger numbers than on a dynapak, so my 330 rwhp could actually be a much bigger differential to yours IF you used a dynojet. If you used a dynapak, then we're comparing apples to apples.
I have to do a run on a dyno jet to see if I get different numbers to confirm that. I've been told quite a few things that I've found later to be not true regarding performance of cars....so maybe I'm wrong and dynojet and dynapaks give the same numbers.
I have a feeling that my air temps are much lower than yours, even at higher boost. This means a safer air charge, and under road racing conditions, more sustainable power on straight-aways, less heat soak in the i/c and stress on the motor, etc.
The ability to go above 16 lbs of boost safely is more important than you make it out to be as well. The stockers will generate so much heat that once you get to 15 lbs, you can't go any further. At least I still have the option to get more power safely, and still pass the strick emission rules in CA. I am limited on how high I can go on pump gas before spontaneous detonation, but you'll get there faster due to the heat generated from the stockers.
There are plenty of single turbo applications that kick my butt on power (or custom twin applications where they are actually using two turbos in separate housings), but I'd still rather have 330 rwhp than something less. 315 rwhp vs. 350 rwhp is a dramatic difference in our cars. As your sig states, they are very light, and a small improvement like 35 rwhp translates to big performance gains.
YMMV.
Beast
There are quite a few other things to take into consideration, most importantly the type of dyno used. Were your numbers taken on a dynojet vs. a dynapak (rollers vs. bolt to the hub)? It is my understanding that the same car on a dynojet makes bigger numbers than on a dynapak, so my 330 rwhp could actually be a much bigger differential to yours IF you used a dynojet. If you used a dynapak, then we're comparing apples to apples.
I have to do a run on a dyno jet to see if I get different numbers to confirm that. I've been told quite a few things that I've found later to be not true regarding performance of cars....so maybe I'm wrong and dynojet and dynapaks give the same numbers.
I have a feeling that my air temps are much lower than yours, even at higher boost. This means a safer air charge, and under road racing conditions, more sustainable power on straight-aways, less heat soak in the i/c and stress on the motor, etc.
The ability to go above 16 lbs of boost safely is more important than you make it out to be as well. The stockers will generate so much heat that once you get to 15 lbs, you can't go any further. At least I still have the option to get more power safely, and still pass the strick emission rules in CA. I am limited on how high I can go on pump gas before spontaneous detonation, but you'll get there faster due to the heat generated from the stockers.
There are plenty of single turbo applications that kick my butt on power (or custom twin applications where they are actually using two turbos in separate housings), but I'd still rather have 330 rwhp than something less. 315 rwhp vs. 350 rwhp is a dramatic difference in our cars. As your sig states, they are very light, and a small improvement like 35 rwhp translates to big performance gains.
YMMV.
Beast
11-26-02, 04:47 PM
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Re: No rain here - no offense taken, either
Originally posted by Beast From The East
I'm sure you did. Those are good numbers at those boost levels with stock turbos (I'm assuming stock porting, too). Mine is a stock port as well.
There are quite a few other things to take into consideration, most importantly the type of dyno used. Were your numbers taken on a dynojet vs. a dynapak (rollers vs. bolt to the hub)? It is my understanding that the same car on a dynojet makes bigger numbers than on a dynapak, so my 330 rwhp could actually be a much bigger differential to yours IF you used a dynojet. If you used a dynapak, then we're comparing apples to apples.
I have to do a run on a dyno jet to see if I get different numbers to confirm that. I've been told quite a few things that I've found later to be not true regarding performance of cars....so maybe I'm wrong and dynojet and dynapaks give the same numbers.
I have a feeling that my air temps are much lower than yours, even at higher boost. This means a safer air charge, and under road racing conditions, more sustainable power on straight-aways, less heat soak in the i/c and stress on the motor, etc.
The ability to go above 16 lbs of boost safely is more important than you make it out to be as well. The stockers will generate so much heat that once you get to 15 lbs, you can't go any further. At least I still have the option to get more power safely, and still pass the strick emission rules in CA. I am limited on how high I can go on pump gas before spontaneous detonation, but you'll get there faster due to the heat generated from the stockers.
There are plenty of single turbo applications that kick my butt on power (or custom twin applications where they are actually using two turbos in separate housings), but I'd still rather have 330 rwhp than something less. 315 rwhp vs. 350 rwhp is a dramatic difference in our cars. As your sig states, they are very light, and a small improvement like 35 rwhp translates to big performance gains.
YMMV.
Beast
I'm sure you did. Those are good numbers at those boost levels with stock turbos (I'm assuming stock porting, too). Mine is a stock port as well.
There are quite a few other things to take into consideration, most importantly the type of dyno used. Were your numbers taken on a dynojet vs. a dynapak (rollers vs. bolt to the hub)? It is my understanding that the same car on a dynojet makes bigger numbers than on a dynapak, so my 330 rwhp could actually be a much bigger differential to yours IF you used a dynojet. If you used a dynapak, then we're comparing apples to apples.
I have to do a run on a dyno jet to see if I get different numbers to confirm that. I've been told quite a few things that I've found later to be not true regarding performance of cars....so maybe I'm wrong and dynojet and dynapaks give the same numbers.
I have a feeling that my air temps are much lower than yours, even at higher boost. This means a safer air charge, and under road racing conditions, more sustainable power on straight-aways, less heat soak in the i/c and stress on the motor, etc.
The ability to go above 16 lbs of boost safely is more important than you make it out to be as well. The stockers will generate so much heat that once you get to 15 lbs, you can't go any further. At least I still have the option to get more power safely, and still pass the strick emission rules in CA. I am limited on how high I can go on pump gas before spontaneous detonation, but you'll get there faster due to the heat generated from the stockers.
There are plenty of single turbo applications that kick my butt on power (or custom twin applications where they are actually using two turbos in separate housings), but I'd still rather have 330 rwhp than something less. 315 rwhp vs. 350 rwhp is a dramatic difference in our cars. As your sig states, they are very light, and a small improvement like 35 rwhp translates to big performance gains.
YMMV.
Beast
Also, you are right, the dyno jet is always 15 pct less than a dyno pac. I went to vishnutuning.com to get my car dyno tuned this time. In a nutshell, my 315.8 is corrected to show what a dyno-jet would show. My #'s on shiv's dyno were 276 prior to the correction.
11-26-02, 05:14 PM
#35
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Now that's interesting!
Well, now, after just watching the Wizard of Oz on Sunday night .... that's a horse of a different color! :-)
Um, did you mean the dynojet numbers are 15% MORE (you typed 'less'). If I take your 276 * 1.15 I get 317.4, so I'm assuming that's what you meant. Using that 15% correction factor, then my 330 dyanpak rwhp would be 379.5 on a dynojet. That sure sounds impressive, doesn't it? Bah - it's all the same power level, as long as we use the same baseline measurement system.
My dynapak numbers on stockers with the main cat on and the stock I/C were 274 - almost exact to your 276, so I'm assuming those number correlate.
Now - how am I figuring my air temps are lower? I'm guessing based on experience. I don't know anything about your i/c, but if you're running stockers at 15 lbs, I'm guessing after three runs on the dyno the manifold glows a nice cherry-red, yes? And your intake air temps are like 70C+ after the run, yes? If so, then I know mine are lower by a large margin, because at 16 lbs boost my manifold is the same color as if the car were cold. My intake temps at the end of a run are around 40 to 45C (got up to 47C during a 150 mph run here a few days ago - I've got the datalog). Currently with our cold winter nights I'm running in the low 20C range after cruising at 70 mph for awhile. I also use the M2 medium smic.
Anyway, I'm very happy with this setup now since I get into boost at 2K rpm (I can actually generate 3 lbs of boost by just reving the motor in neutral with these new timing changes I've made), I hit 16 lbs at 4800 rpm (it was around 5500 on that dyno run I posted before) and I can probably go to 18 lbs on pump gas and still be in the safe zone with this 3 bar. I won't be the fastest ever, but I'll be in the top percentile, at least. Not bad for a daily driver ;-)
Rotor on
Beast.
Um, did you mean the dynojet numbers are 15% MORE (you typed 'less'). If I take your 276 * 1.15 I get 317.4, so I'm assuming that's what you meant. Using that 15% correction factor, then my 330 dyanpak rwhp would be 379.5 on a dynojet. That sure sounds impressive, doesn't it? Bah - it's all the same power level, as long as we use the same baseline measurement system.
My dynapak numbers on stockers with the main cat on and the stock I/C were 274 - almost exact to your 276, so I'm assuming those number correlate.
Now - how am I figuring my air temps are lower? I'm guessing based on experience. I don't know anything about your i/c, but if you're running stockers at 15 lbs, I'm guessing after three runs on the dyno the manifold glows a nice cherry-red, yes? And your intake air temps are like 70C+ after the run, yes? If so, then I know mine are lower by a large margin, because at 16 lbs boost my manifold is the same color as if the car were cold. My intake temps at the end of a run are around 40 to 45C (got up to 47C during a 150 mph run here a few days ago - I've got the datalog). Currently with our cold winter nights I'm running in the low 20C range after cruising at 70 mph for awhile. I also use the M2 medium smic.
Anyway, I'm very happy with this setup now since I get into boost at 2K rpm (I can actually generate 3 lbs of boost by just reving the motor in neutral with these new timing changes I've made), I hit 16 lbs at 4800 rpm (it was around 5500 on that dyno run I posted before) and I can probably go to 18 lbs on pump gas and still be in the safe zone with this 3 bar. I won't be the fastest ever, but I'll be in the top percentile, at least. Not bad for a daily driver ;-)
Rotor on
Beast.
11-26-02, 05:19 PM
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I dont run 15 lbs boost.
and yes I meant dyno-jet or mustang dyno's always show about 15 pct more than a dyno-dynamics dynameter with the 2 rollers on each wheel. like at vishnutuning.com.
according to shiv he said a stock WRX dynoes around 150 to the wheels. My #'s on his dyno were 276. His car dynoed at 290 and is the same as mine except he has a street port. I believe what he says cause I dynoed my car on a dyno jet a few months ago and got a 266 rwhp with a highflow cat. with my midpipe It dynoed at shivs at 260 rwhp . he then did his tuning to the timing and got it to 276. After the correction it was 315.8.
Im confused now. LOL.
and yes I meant dyno-jet or mustang dyno's always show about 15 pct more than a dyno-dynamics dynameter with the 2 rollers on each wheel. like at vishnutuning.com.
according to shiv he said a stock WRX dynoes around 150 to the wheels. My #'s on his dyno were 276. His car dynoed at 290 and is the same as mine except he has a street port. I believe what he says cause I dynoed my car on a dyno jet a few months ago and got a 266 rwhp with a highflow cat. with my midpipe It dynoed at shivs at 260 rwhp . he then did his tuning to the timing and got it to 276. After the correction it was 315.8.
Im confused now. LOL.
Last edited by ZeroBanger; 11-26-02 at 05:21 PM.
11-26-02, 05:44 PM
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Naw - that makes sense
Ok, we're on the same page now. I obviously need to get to a dynojet so I can get a 370+ rwhp run published, so I can boast about it.
Because of crap like this the ONLY comparisons to use are ETs, laptimes, and chequred flags - those measurements can't be fudged.
I'll let you (and everybody else) know how things go with this 3 bar - I can't find anyone who's used the Apexi unit - only the GM one....
Beast
Because of crap like this the ONLY comparisons to use are ETs, laptimes, and chequred flags - those measurements can't be fudged.
I'll let you (and everybody else) know how things go with this 3 bar - I can't find anyone who's used the Apexi unit - only the GM one....
Beast
11-27-02, 08:42 AM
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Hi Zerobanger,
Ivan (someone that shiv doesn't care for) has a street ported FD with stock twins and all the goodies and he got just under 390RWHP at around 15 ~ 16psi with Greddy SMIC and stock intake. ar was tuned by Excess (sp?) in so. cal.
Ivan has all the standard goodies........ staight pipe..... upgraded injectors....... powerfc...
Ivan (someone that shiv doesn't care for) has a street ported FD with stock twins and all the goodies and he got just under 390RWHP at around 15 ~ 16psi with Greddy SMIC and stock intake. ar was tuned by Excess (sp?) in so. cal.
Ivan has all the standard goodies........ staight pipe..... upgraded injectors....... powerfc...
11-27-02, 09:41 AM
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batman, what type of dyno? I would be afraid to run 15 to 16 psi on my car, lol. ITs funny, Rick originally suggested I goto excess engineering in socal for a tune, but then he told me about shiv,so I went there.
Shiv is pretty cool, but all the "sign the waver, most 7's blow up on the dyno" jokes were getting to me, lol.
David
Shiv is pretty cool, but all the "sign the waver, most 7's blow up on the dyno" jokes were getting to me, lol.
David
11-27-02, 09:47 AM
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David,
I have met Shiv once a few years ago at M2.......
I heard that he has a $150,000 AWD Dyno at his shop.
Did u have to sign that waiver?
The waiver thing scares me too..............
What did Shiv charge?
I have met Shiv once a few years ago at M2.......
I heard that he has a $150,000 AWD Dyno at his shop.
Did u have to sign that waiver?
The waiver thing scares me too..............
What did Shiv charge?
11-27-02, 10:13 AM
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Batman,
Shive charges 200/hr for tuning. or 100 for dyno. he ran 11 runs for me. we squeezed 18 more hp from timing and rich the car a little during transition cause of my spike.
His dyno is new and really nice. Brett is there too. Its a little funny, but nerve racking too. Shiv said "Sign the waiver, you know the one just for Rx7's" and I said "now I'm nervous, what if it blows up" His reply was "You should be nervous, it probably will, but dont worry we will call you a cab".
I would take my car back there again. he has some big *** fans pointing to the car too. just remember its not a dyno-jet, so the #'s are a bit less, but shiv can tune your car, ATP cant. Shiv will use headphones to listen for knock and the boost is tied into the dyno so you get boost reading with your dyno chart.
The funny thing is Shiv said "when it comes to Rx7's..I'm an appreciator...Brett on the other hand is a hater".
that was a funny line.
Shive charges 200/hr for tuning. or 100 for dyno. he ran 11 runs for me. we squeezed 18 more hp from timing and rich the car a little during transition cause of my spike.
His dyno is new and really nice. Brett is there too. Its a little funny, but nerve racking too. Shiv said "Sign the waiver, you know the one just for Rx7's" and I said "now I'm nervous, what if it blows up" His reply was "You should be nervous, it probably will, but dont worry we will call you a cab".
I would take my car back there again. he has some big *** fans pointing to the car too. just remember its not a dyno-jet, so the #'s are a bit less, but shiv can tune your car, ATP cant. Shiv will use headphones to listen for knock and the boost is tied into the dyno so you get boost reading with your dyno chart.
The funny thing is Shiv said "when it comes to Rx7's..I'm an appreciator...Brett on the other hand is a hater".
that was a funny line.
11-27-02, 10:15 AM
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then they weight of wheels and tires (rotating mass) which eats up some HP on the way to the ground is not accounted for with the dyna-pack.
So a dyna-pack isn't HP to the ground, it's more of a step closer to getting crank/shaft HP.
Does this make sense?
So a dyna-pack isn't HP to the ground, it's more of a step closer to getting crank/shaft HP.
Does this make sense?
11-27-02, 10:33 AM
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******* yikes!!!!!
I heard that Frank in Mountain View does tuning this way:
U drive the car
He tunes it while u drive under real world load such as up the hill...... against the wind and so forth.
He has that headphone from Japan to listen for knock and then tunes it acordingly with Wide band running as well and dataloggit with laptop.
This is all done from the passenger seat.
I heard that Frank in Mountain View does tuning this way:
U drive the car
He tunes it while u drive under real world load such as up the hill...... against the wind and so forth.
He has that headphone from Japan to listen for knock and then tunes it acordingly with Wide band running as well and dataloggit with laptop.
This is all done from the passenger seat.
11-27-02, 11:38 AM
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Originally posted by ZeroBanger
I would take my car back there again. he has some big *** fans pointing to the car too. just remember its not a dyno-jet, so the #'s are a bit less, but shiv can tune your car, ATP cant. Shiv will use headphones to listen for knock and the boost is tied into the dyno so you get boost reading with your dyno chart.
I would take my car back there again. he has some big *** fans pointing to the car too. just remember its not a dyno-jet, so the #'s are a bit less, but shiv can tune your car, ATP cant. Shiv will use headphones to listen for knock and the boost is tied into the dyno so you get boost reading with your dyno chart.
mike
11-27-02, 11:49 AM
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well I thought it was both. when I went to ATP they told me they did not know the PFC.
Also shiv said that you need a special dyno to tune. His is specially designed for tuning. It has roller on each side of both wheels. Not sure if that is significant.
maybe I'm wrong, its happen b4.
hehe
Also shiv said that you need a special dyno to tune. His is specially designed for tuning. It has roller on each side of both wheels. Not sure if that is significant.
maybe I'm wrong, its happen b4.
hehe
11-27-02, 11:57 AM
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yeah, I heard Shiv's dyno is optimized for tuning since both wheels has a roller. From what I heard it provides equal load to each wheel which is ideal for a car with a limited slip diff like the factory torsen.........
11-27-02, 01:35 PM
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plus brett is a worrier about rx7s...he is aware of all problems associated with tuning them for hp...temp..fuel etc...
I would take my car there in a heart beat.
I would take my car there in a heart beat.
11-27-02, 01:38 PM
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Originally posted by ZeroBanger
well I thought it was both. when I went to ATP they told me they did not know the PFC.
Also shiv said that you need a special dyno to tune. His is specially designed for tuning. It has roller on each side of both wheels. Not sure if that is significant.
maybe I'm wrong, its happen b4.
hehe
well I thought it was both. when I went to ATP they told me they did not know the PFC.
Also shiv said that you need a special dyno to tune. His is specially designed for tuning. It has roller on each side of both wheels. Not sure if that is significant.
maybe I'm wrong, its happen b4.
hehe
. as you guys already kinda talked about there are 2 kinds of dynos, there is the "dynojet style" where you are spinning a drum, and there is the kinda where you can hold rpm and load. if you can hold the rpm and load, you can dial in the air fuel in that part of the map. on the other kinda of dyno (atp) you cant hold a fixed load/rpm with the dyno so its a little harder to isolate certain cells in the map
mike
11-27-02, 01:40 PM
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Originally posted by j9fd3s
ok i understand them not knowing how to tune the pfc . as you guys already kinda talked about there are 2 kinds of dynos, there is the "dynojet style" where you are spinning a drum, and there is the kinda where you can hold rpm and load. if you can hold the rpm and load, you can dial in the air fuel in that part of the map.
on the other kinda of dyno (atp) you cant hold a fixed load/rpm with the dyno so its a little harder to isolate certain cells in the map
mike
ok i understand them not knowing how to tune the pfc
. as you guys already kinda talked about there are 2 kinds of dynos, there is the "dynojet style" where you are spinning a drum, and there is the kinda where you can hold rpm and load. if you can hold the rpm and load, you can dial in the air fuel in that part of the map. on the other kinda of dyno (atp) you cant hold a fixed load/rpm with the dyno so its a little harder to isolate certain cells in the map
mike
11-27-02, 01:45 PM
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hmm, that would be cool to play with , we are going to atp next weekish, if you want to go
mike
, we are going to atp next weekish, if you want to gomike