Shinobi-X

I'm in line with this frame of thought. Saving a dollar in the present usually ends up costing quite a bit more in the future when it comes to these cars. I also feel more confident knowing that the engine is using newer parts, especially those as critical as its various seals. To each his own though...

13Beast REW

I was one of those people that couldn't afford to have my car rebuilt in a shop but I also prefer to do all of my own work anyway. When my motor went I stored it and bought an N/A FC until I could come up with the money to build an almost entirely new engine (all new alluminums and irons, all new rotors, all new seals and springs; most other things reused). While this came out to be very expensive for my pockets, since I've taken my time with it, I'm much happier with the what I've got going and the knowledge, experience, and contacts that I've gained.

All in all I feel that going with all new parts is better albeit uneccesary as the primary gain over reused parts IS simpley (and possibly even falsely founded) peace of mind).

The applied knowledge, experience and skill of the engine builder is worth far more than the parts applied.

RotaryResurrection

iTrader: (8)

Alright, fair enough, let's look at this from another side.

How many times have you heard of someone tearing up their nearly new rebuild in a high power/high abuse situation? IT actually happens quite a bit...I rebuild a LOT of mazda remans. I've also taken apart engines from almost every rebuilder in north america...not because I buy them, but because people pay to get them built and then they tear up a few months later. This is not usually because of improper assembly or building techniques, but just because of customer abuse or the trial-and-error nature of trying to tune a higher power engine.

What am I getting at? These people paid real money for these engine builds...some of them high end. Hell, I recently took apart a $3k+ KDR engine that blew up with >5k miles. I also took apart about 4 blown remans, all of which had less than 10k on them. What this tells me is that, new seals or not, new housings or not, professionaly built or not, you can blow ANY engine up at ANY time with improper maintenance and tuning. I've seen 500 dollar blocks outlast 5000 dollar blocks due to sheer luck. I've seen nothing to prove that an expensive engine is indestructible, or will even outlast a stock engine.

Now with that out of the way, I can make my point. You have a modded car. You need an engine. You KNOW that, regardless of who you pay to build the engine, and how much that engine costs, that you're most likely GOING to tear it up within 2.5 years, sometimes in as little as 6 months. This statement might only apply to half the guys running modded setups out there, but it still applies to many.

So, your options are to pay $2000-4000 for a reman or higher end rebuild, or do a rebuild like what I offer for $1500 with a few used parts inside. It could even be argued (and proven) that many of those more expensive engine builds will also have used parts inside, but that's a whole different story. Let's say you spend $3000 on a (supposedly) new housing, all new seal, rebuild from a high end rebuilder. And $1500 for the equivalent from me. They're both going to go in and run, and hold the power...for a while. IN reality, from everything I've seen, they're both going to last about the same amount of time. At some point, be it 3 months or 3 years later, you're probably going to tear that one up...be it a tuning mistake, getting a bit overzealous with the boost controller, a boost spike or creep incident, a busted AST, a bad tank of gas, whatever. The man who spent $1500 on my engine, can (if necessary) buy another $1500 build, and still be under the cost that the first guy spent on his engine (that already blew).

Or, put another way, I can usually build 2 engines for the cost of one built elsewhere...do you honestly think that 1 engine will outlast 2 consecutive builds, even if those 2 builds do have some used parts content? Be realistic now...

Or, put yet another way. I've offered this challenge in the past to those on this and other forums who bring up the "new seal/new rotorhousing" debate. I'll offer this to any builder around. You build your engine with whatever new parts you recommend, and I'll build mine as I normally would. We both make note of REGULAR PRICES that a customer would get charged for this engine. They should be installed into stock cars. Obviously mine will be much cheaper. I will then take the difference in price and apply towards power mods for my stock car. After a short breakin period, we'll dyno them both, and see who comes out ahead. This excersize, if it were ever practiced, would illustrate "bang-for-the-buck" from a customer's point of view.

I'm curious to see where this goes now...

RotaryResurrection

iTrader: (8)

No, I disagree with that. The only way I'll consider reusing apex seals is if they have documented >10k miles, and I can be pretty confident they were never pinged. IN reality, the apex seals are the main wear item in the engine, basically they're what "makes it go". They cost $175-250 per set. Why in the world you'd NOT replace them anytime the engine is out and apart, I don't know.

Sure, of course you will. And that "peace of mind" in reality costed you at least 400 dollars more (all new seals/springs), perhaps as much as $1500 more (if you account for new rotorhousings, too). But again. When was the last time you heard of someone actually blowing a side seal? a corner seal? A failure of a side seal spring, or a corner seal spring, or an oil control spring? Apex seal spring? IF you have, the person most likely just said so not knowing for sure. Because these parts typically NEVER fail. Again, your main wear items, or put another way your main FAILURE items, are coolant seals, apex seals, and oil seals.

Some of the other seals may wear a little, but they never wear enough to induce a failure. Again, I've taken used vs. new measurements of all the seals, and most of this stuff winds up coming out of a 60k mile motor measuring almost like new.

rynberg

I disagree, and I would be terribly disappointed if my new engine only lasts 2.5 years. After all, my original motor made it over 10 years and 85k before it's rebuild, and that was due to low (but even) compression, not being blown. There are many people that have been running motors for years doing dozens of track events without issue. My mechanic/rebuilder has 10 years/50k+ miles on his rebuilt ported motor (with all bolt-ons), and it's had stock twins, a T-78, and now 99 twins on it. Still running fine with good compression.

The problem is too many people do something half-*** or try to get too greedy with the tuning.

My sentiments exactly...

Well, my mechanic charges a price for a motor, including all new seals and new rotor housings....he doesn't just add retail price to the cost of the rebuild for everything. And, $400 extra for doing all the seals is definitely worth it to me, for the reasons stated above. As for new rotor housings, you can see (blurry) pics of my housings in my rebuild thread....would you re-use those 85k mile housings in a modified TT engine that sees a lot of track time? https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...hlight=rebuild

GAMBEAN

iTrader: (2)

awesome thread! I bought a jpsec s4 13bt w/"low miles" 30k or so from shane smith of rotary works late last year. I did all the work I could handle until I ran out of time. I'm getting married next month So, the car is now at smokin' joe racing in n.y. Joe is well known for his outstanding work. To make a long story as short as I can, joe was for sure that I had side seal issue. Turns out as of today after he disassembled the engine he discovered a side seal that was not stuck or not in place it was cracked in two. He called me again in the afternoon with an update that I would definately need a front plate do to the side seal. As for the rest, both housings, rotors are good to reuse. he told me to get a rebuild kit from atkinsrotary. They want a little over a grand for a s4 kit. I still haven't talked to joe yet about the price of rebuilding my engine. I know I gotta be at least over $1800 for the re wiring and install of the haltech e6k that was on my friends supra, and stupid little stuff that I couldn't finish as well mid pipe, ic pipes, blah blah blah. I can't really afford to invest another 2k or so. I just wished I kept my car in storage until after marriage and saved some money finishing it up myself up until joe ran into the problem with the engine not running right. then
I could of sent it to kevin to save a buck or two. I guess you live and learn. I know my car is in good hands. anyways, I appreciate this thread and so will others on the debate over $$$ on rebuilds.

ruos

iTrader: (1)

I paid a great deal for mine, alot more than has been mentioned thus far, but I didn't mind writting that check to Pettit. I look at the PETTITRACING plate tag at the rear of the motor, and I can exhale in peace.

FCguy

I met this guy at last years NOPI nationals. Nice guy. Nice 7's. If and when I buy another FC (and blow it) He is going to be the one I call. Not to mention I live in GA and TN isnt to far away.

Spirit_Rotary_7

6K. Tripoint Mazda Engineering.

GUITARJUNKIE28

i do that for about $800 less