Fritz Flynn

iTrader: (263)

I agree but when you do see a high mileage FD they are usually bone stock or have just a few mods and the owners have taken car of them. When these engines go it's from poor modding/tuning or maint for the most part.

My current track car has been making 325 to 350 rwhp for 7k plus track miles if you think some little 4 banger engine could begin to do that you'd be crazy. The rotary engine is a tuff little engine. If I drove it just a little slower say 3 or 4 seconds a lap slower it would probably go twice as long. Believe me when I say this 10k miles on a track is atleast 100k street miles

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

the title of the thread is unfortunate:

there are HUGE differences between specific synthetic oils. you should not lump them all into a category and compare that assemblage w dino oil.

Synthetic Oil
Apples and Oranges
Pistons and Rotors

guess which synthetic oil i run in my FD transmission. and rear end, and wheel bearings and crankcase.


and what do i really know about oil?

not enough to offer analytic commentary. in such cases i listen around and go w what others are finding works

it impressed me that when the USAF couldn't find a lube for the front wheel bearing on the F15 Eagle... (something about going from zero to 150 mph w some serious weight on it in a nonosecond) Mobil 1 provided the solution w a new synthetic grease. it is amazing stuff... synthetic. i lube my FD wheel bearings w it.

i ran Mobil 1 gear lube in my real racecar (above) for 6 seasons, 72 races, half w a Mazda syncro trans and half w a dogbox not using the clutch all shifts at 10,000 RPM for 35 minutes w no trans DNFs.

and, so far, 60,000 trouble free FD miles. all lubricants everywhere in all my rotaries Mobil 1 since 1983.

Mobil 1 has worked for me. i do add ZDDP to my trans and crankcase BTW.

i pretty much have now said what i want to say on oil, primarily that synthetics should be judged as each being a separate entity, rather than a class.

BTW, oil threads generally turn out as badly as apex seal threads so good luck all

howard

Fritz Flynn

iTrader: (263)

The right answer is what works for you. Nothing like living with your decisions to determine which ones are good ones

no_more_rice

Where's the mystery in comparing relative viscosity between brands of oil with a given OCI in the same vehicle? What "interpretation" skills are required? It is what it is!

no_more_rice

If there's any chance the synchros could be corroded by GL-5, why risk it? Regardless of what Mazduh said back in 1992.

no_more_rice

What does that mean? The right answer is putting the best product in your car you can get your hands on (for a reasonable price at least). There are good oils out there, and others which should be avoided because they're plainly inferior.

Case in point: on s2ki, it was determined that the original formula Honda manual transmission fluid sheared out of grade in as little as 5,000 miles. This fact was well documented by numerous UOAs from numerous vehicles. As a result, the community steered away from using that oil, and evenutally a reformulated oil was released; however, even the reformulated stuff was reported to shear out of grade. At that point you can either find a new oil or keep changing it every 5k.

Facts aren't subjective. There are superior oils out there. The available evidence indicates Mobil 1 and Amsoil are very good. Neo has a good reputation here, but I haven't seen many analysis results for it.

Fritz Flynn

iTrader: (263)

You're the data guy I thought this might mean something to you but of course what does Mazduh know.

Fritz Flynn

iTrader: (263)

What works for you means, you've used it and it works if you don't understand that then I can't explain further. The honda guys decided the gear oil wasn't working for them hopefully they have found something they are happy with and won't change just because someone comes out with a new oil that's superior on paper. If it works for you there's no reason to fix it or if it ain't broke don't fix it.

Some folks like data others like knowing that Mobil one cured the bearing problem for fighter jets to take off safely. YMMV but oil reports and data and what Joe Blow is using doesn't mean **** to me. What Howard Coleman, Cam Worth, Peter Farrel etc....etc.... have to say might mean something or atleast my ears are wide open.

Fritz Flynn

iTrader: (263)

After thinking about my above statement I forgot about all those STIs and EVOs that are kicking my *** so maybe I understated the durability and power of the 4 banger. No disrespect here

no_more_rice

Here's a thought: how about trying a few different trans oils in your track car, get a few samples analyzed ($20 is chump change for a baller in the med business) and post the results. Peter Farrell uses x....I really couldn't give a ****. Everyone has their pet brand, but not many have experimented with different brands, including Motul etc, and presented the data. I'd love to see relative performance of these synthetic trans fluids.

With that said, my bet is on Amsoil. I used to be turned off to them but the stuff really does live up to the hype in every analysis I've seen, motorcycle, waverunner, whatever.

Fritz Flynn

iTrader: (263)

I already posted up some data prepared for the Amsoil Co. and guess which company was proven to be ranked the highest .

Mobil one came in second place and interestingly royal purple finished way down the list.. Mobil one is recommended by many of the worlds automakers and I don't think any automaker recommends amsoil. Another thing to think about Amsoils marketing is geared toward attaching mobil 1 and other oil makers. Data can be twisted in so many different directions and when it comes to how things wear it's always give and take. I know, I know, what the hell does give and take mean lol, I'm out of breath or I'd go into detail.

Amsoil whole marketing scheme is base upon shock value and slamming all other oil. This BS is on the front page of their website:

In fact, we know of several major NASCAR and Indy racing teams that use AMSOIL in their race cars yet the oil sponsors logo on the hood and quarter panels is not what is in the vehicle! They want you to believe it is..... but it isn't. Fact is, every successful major race car in the world uses synthetics, and an extremely large percentage of them use AMSOIL synthetics. We know exactly who these racing teams are but are not permitted to advertise who they are because they have such a large amount of money at stake with their sponsors wanting the public to believe they are using the brand of oil that is is advertised on the car.

They are the secret oil cult who's better than everyone and they know that car enthusiast will buy into there bullshit. We all want whats best for our cars and are easily susceptible to any sort of hype that will make are cars run better, stronger, longer etc..... If Amsoil makes the best oil in the world then please stop biting at the heels of all the big dogs and be the BIG DOG, sponsor some ******* race teams and become a major player playa

Sgtblue

iTrader: (16)

Mmmmm, maybe Fritz and Howard Coleman just need to go to a more 'technical forum' where they can be enlightened.

no_more_rice

Amsoil's marketing strategy sucks, they're kind of like the Amway of synthetic oil, I completely agree. A few years ago I was in the "Mobil 1 rules" camp, but I've seen enough independent studies of their products on BITOG, s2ki.com, Sport Rider etc to make me a believer. These studies consistently back up the claims on Amsoil's website(s), their oil stays in grade (in terms of viscosity) better than the competition almost every time I've seen a direct comparison. It usually wins wear metals comparisons as well. Standard Mobil 1 has not fared well at all in these comparisons, but Mobil 1 "EP" has done well (Mobil stepped up their game in response to these tests, little question). All of the newer motor oils, including Penzoil Platinum and Valvoline Synpower, are so good that the differences are slight, but trans oil is more interesting because the differences are more apparent, and there are fewer manufacturers producing a quality synthetic manual trans oil. If was amazing to see how fast the Honda trans oil sheared out of spec, and according to users, the difference was noticeable.

no_more_rice

Come on, you know that's just a function of Exxon-Mobil's deep pockets/sponsorships.

The proof is in the used oil analysis. Competition from other brands like Amsoil forced Mobil to release a competitive product like "Extended Performance" (which is a very good product)

Fritz Flynn

iTrader: (263)

Like you mentioned about the data I simply see the writing on the wall and make my decisions. I just can't support a company that can't meet the standards of todays business morals and ethics... Maybe their oil really is the best in the world but I won't use it until they change the business formula that surrounds itself with their own hearsay along with the whole avon selling approach. I'm sorry but that's snake oil not motor oil.

Fritz Flynn

iTrader: (263)

I'm not in anyones camp and you have me nailed 100%, I'm not a technical person I'm one of those hippy vibe kind of ***** but Howard isn't he's about as technical as you can get so maybe you should actually listen to him, or not, I don't know anything about you but I'm happy to have you enlighten me and the rest of forum anytime so please procede Sometimes I can run on in my sentences

Sgtblue

iTrader: (16)

Not any any one camp either. I'm running synthetic now...though due for a change. That's my interest.
I don't know you either, other than you sell used parts and race cars. Don't know Howard Coleman, but he tracks too. I'm just a dumb non-technical goverment employee, so I'll take real-world experience over lab tests almost every time. That's why I was being sarcastic and referring to no_more_rice's earlier comment here...

no_more_rice

It's not as simple as "real world" vs. lab. UOA is a real world test! Sure, you have to take variables into consideration (what kind of use was the oil subjected to? what was the OCI? was make-up oil added? etc) However, when you compare a sample population of analytical results against these metrics, you can discern the outstanding performers from the also-rans. Used oil analysis is an extremely useful diagnostic tool, it's similar to checking your blood (not many people do that, either, unfortunately). Every FD owner should get a UOA on the motor oil, especially. You will learn alot about your engine, and it only costs $25, so it's not a money issue, it's a lazy issue.

The sad reality is most people are simply not detail oriented, thoughtful individuals, they are not true scientists, they just kind of float with whatever the "experts" or the majority says. I don't get people like that, and I have nothing in common with them. The "experts" and/or the masses get it wrong all the time, and there is literally a sea of opinions about every possible topic in internet happy 2010. I prefer hard data, analytical results, to someone's random gum flapping opinion, any day. An oil that "works for me" is completely subjective, but an oil that excels in wear tests is not subjective.

Fritz Flynn

iTrader: (263)

No doubt I'm fellowing the same crowd. Oil test don't mean anything to me because I don't have a clue about any of the science behind it. However I know what's involved with tracking a car and the punishment that it undergoes and if something works in that world it works on the street in spades.

Fritz Flynn

iTrader: (263)

Can I assume that based upon the unbiased studies you've encountered that amsoil is the best oil and that's what you'd recommend I use?

Sgtblue

iTrader: (16)

Agreed. I don't think I'm a knee-jerk, band-wagon kind of owner. I read, and decide whose opinions and experience has value, and benefit by paying attention to them. It's the lazy way of doing things I guess. Hope you and Coleman don't mind.

magus2222

iTrader: (22)

i fail to see why synthetic would cause accelerated wear or excess slop in a transmission, considering how lamborghini, ferrari, aston martin, etc etc etc all run it.........

Lloyd

no_more_rice

Unlike a couple of long time members on s2ki, I will not go so far as to say Amsoil is the "best" oil, but I believe it's a very good one.

dgeesaman

iTrader: (7)

Aside from the synchronizers that *might* not benefit, I agree completely. Synthetic hydrocarbon gear oils are exactly the same thing as mineral gear oil, just purer and with better properties.

If a particular synthetic does not perform as well as a particular mineral oil for any reason, investigate the viscosity and additive packages to see if the synthetic is the wrong formulation for the application rather than blame it all on synthetics.

Dave

dgeesaman

iTrader: (7)

A VOA only costs $25.

A single UOA is of limited value. Many well-intentioned folks will get a UOA done and believe they have all of the answers they want in that sheet of paper. They don't.

To learn what a lubricant is doing for your application w.r.t. wear, you need to take multiple UOAs and develop a trend with each lubricant you're trying to compare. You'll also want to flush the oil lubricant out, so there's additional lubricant cost. It all becomes 5x-10x more expensive by the end than that $25 VOA.

I agree that oil analysis is the best tool for sorting out these questions. However, it gets a little arduous to deal with when we're talking about 3.5qts of oil that gets replaced once every few years.

Dave