The sway bar story Part 1
03-09-07, 06:00 PM
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The sway bar story Part 1
Okay I do not make many posts too old I guess. Last year I bought the red Racing Beat front and rear sway bars. I have over the years purchased quite a few things from them and always been a happy camper.
Put them on bolted right up. Took the car for a spin and the rear came around like a corrupt politician. The car was tail happy in both right and left hand turns.
Not only that, but traction was down. Had wheel hop for the first time.
Here are some photos to get you started. It shows that there is indeed differences between the RB rear bar and MS rear bar. The RB bar is both thicker and the dog leg is longer
Yes FDnewBe be the man I got the Mazdaspeed bars from. He also sent the bushings for the Mazdaspped sway bars.
Put them on bolted right up. Took the car for a spin and the rear came around like a corrupt politician. The car was tail happy in both right and left hand turns.
Not only that, but traction was down. Had wheel hop for the first time.
Here are some photos to get you started. It shows that there is indeed differences between the RB rear bar and MS rear bar. The RB bar is both thicker and the dog leg is longer
Yes FDnewBe be the man I got the Mazdaspeed bars from. He also sent the bushings for the Mazdaspped sway bars.
03-09-07, 06:14 PM
#2
Not to be picky, but Sway Bars are only a part of the entire handling equation. What shocks/springs are you using? Alignment settings? Since Stabilizer Bars reduce body roll (and also reduce the independent nature of your suspension to a slight degree), This will also mean that your alignment settings need to be adjusted for your suspension Characteristics.
Stiffer Stabilizers are better for quick transitions (ie auto-cross)
Softer Stabilizers are better for slower transitions (ie road course racing)
From the sounds of it, the rear bar is too stiff for your current setup... or the front bar is too soft. Also, what are your tire pressures like? And lastly, what type of cornering were you doing? (speed, traction conditions, on/off power, quick transition, slow transitions)
Suspension setup is an art. It will also be affected by your driving style.
EDIT - guessing from the wheel hop, the rear bar is too stiff for your current setup.
Stiffer Stabilizers are better for quick transitions (ie auto-cross)
Softer Stabilizers are better for slower transitions (ie road course racing)
From the sounds of it, the rear bar is too stiff for your current setup... or the front bar is too soft. Also, what are your tire pressures like? And lastly, what type of cornering were you doing? (speed, traction conditions, on/off power, quick transition, slow transitions)
Suspension setup is an art. It will also be affected by your driving style.
EDIT - guessing from the wheel hop, the rear bar is too stiff for your current setup.
03-09-07, 06:35 PM
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Part 2
The setup on the car is all OEM. Only thing that was changed is the sway bars that is why I thought it odd that the handling changed so.
Next step was to look at the rear to see if I could see anything. I put the car on jack stand and jacked the rear wheels up to see if there was any binding.
What I noticed was that the RB bars were indeed binding when the second hole was used. See Pics.
In this series of pictures you should notice that I painted the RB bars black with a wax under coating. I like the idea of the RB bars but do not like red ones. Looks kinda child like.
However even when I used the first hole the tail happy car continued on its evil way.
Here are some pictures of what I did.
Next step was to look at the rear to see if I could see anything. I put the car on jack stand and jacked the rear wheels up to see if there was any binding.
What I noticed was that the RB bars were indeed binding when the second hole was used. See Pics.
In this series of pictures you should notice that I painted the RB bars black with a wax under coating. I like the idea of the RB bars but do not like red ones. Looks kinda child like.
However even when I used the first hole the tail happy car continued on its evil way.
Here are some pictures of what I did.
03-09-07, 07:00 PM
#6
A stiffer rear bar will make the car oversteer more. That's a fact. A bar that is binding will prevent the suspension from working properly. In my case, my car was understeering pretty badly. I changed the alignment, but it didn't do enough. Next, I installed a 93 rear sway bar. It is thicker and stiffer than my 94 bar. That helped a lot. The car is pretty neutral now (stock suspension and wheels), with just a touch of understeer. I would prefer a touch of oversteer, but have not done anything about it yet.
03-09-07, 07:46 PM
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Part 4
With the fitment issue of the RB bars and the fact the car was unsafe to drive I put the OEM bars back on and all was well. 7 was a 7 again
When I took off the Racing Beat bars however I noticed that the rear bar was bent. That is to say one of the dog legs was 2 inches higher than the other. Upon inspection the bent dog leg it was found to be on the wheel that was moved threw it vertical motion, to check for mechanical binding, and was indeed the bent leg.
When I inspected the Racing Beat rear bar and the bent dog leg I assumed that it came that way or I had a big wreck I did not know about.
I figured that what the hell. Put it in the vise and bend it back. I bent like butter.
What I just learned was the rear Racing Beat sway bar was NOT TEMPERED!!!
Sway bars are springs. No temper no spring
I contacted Racing Beat. I sent the bars back. Mr Jim Tanner is my POC
They sent them back. Same bars same problem. However Mr. Tanner stated that the RB bars were the same size as the Mazdaspeed but different bar diameter. More on this later. Its not that I did not believe him it that I did not believe him.
Without a set of Mazdaspeed bars I had to take Mr. Tanner at his word.
FDnewBe gets into the picture. I ordered some hard to find Mazdaspeed sway bars for the seven and waited (the half life of a color TV) before I got them. I got them at a good price and I got the Mazdaspeed bushings to boot.
The fronts are the same kinda. There appears to be a small difference in the bend of the bar at the end. Diameter of the RB bars are bigger. I could not tell if the temper of the front RB bars was correct or even present. My test with the block of wood showed nothing to indicate an issue
The Racing Beat rears are different. The dog leg is longer. and causes binding as the pictures show. The rear Racing Beat bar also lacks any real temper and so takes a set and causes, at least in my case, a big safety issue. The car became very tail happy.
After the same test, with the jack, I unbolted the Mazdaspeed rear sway bar to see if it would bend. Nope. The Mazdaspeed bar showed no sigh of taking a set.
Dog legs remain true and level.
Drove the car around and drove like a dream.
When I took off the Racing Beat bars however I noticed that the rear bar was bent. That is to say one of the dog legs was 2 inches higher than the other. Upon inspection the bent dog leg it was found to be on the wheel that was moved threw it vertical motion, to check for mechanical binding, and was indeed the bent leg.
When I inspected the Racing Beat rear bar and the bent dog leg I assumed that it came that way or I had a big wreck I did not know about.
I figured that what the hell. Put it in the vise and bend it back. I bent like butter.
What I just learned was the rear Racing Beat sway bar was NOT TEMPERED!!!
Sway bars are springs. No temper no spring
I contacted Racing Beat. I sent the bars back. Mr Jim Tanner is my POC
They sent them back. Same bars same problem. However Mr. Tanner stated that the RB bars were the same size as the Mazdaspeed but different bar diameter. More on this later. Its not that I did not believe him it that I did not believe him.
Without a set of Mazdaspeed bars I had to take Mr. Tanner at his word.
FDnewBe gets into the picture. I ordered some hard to find Mazdaspeed sway bars for the seven and waited (the half life of a color TV) before I got them. I got them at a good price and I got the Mazdaspeed bushings to boot.
The fronts are the same kinda. There appears to be a small difference in the bend of the bar at the end. Diameter of the RB bars are bigger. I could not tell if the temper of the front RB bars was correct or even present. My test with the block of wood showed nothing to indicate an issue
The Racing Beat rears are different. The dog leg is longer. and causes binding as the pictures show. The rear Racing Beat bar also lacks any real temper and so takes a set and causes, at least in my case, a big safety issue. The car became very tail happy.
After the same test, with the jack, I unbolted the Mazdaspeed rear sway bar to see if it would bend. Nope. The Mazdaspeed bar showed no sigh of taking a set.
Dog legs remain true and level.
Drove the car around and drove like a dream.
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03-09-07, 08:29 PM
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Part 5
Now that I have all the information and can speak to Mr. Tanner of Racing Beat with gather data instead of opinion, I am sending the Racing Beat Sway bars back to them and asking for a full refund. We will see if they can do that.
Mr Tanner has seen these bars before. I will find it interesting as to his response to the issues raised here.
A) The Racing Beat should consider the possibility of a quality control issues from their subcontractors
B) Mr Tanner may consider the possibility that just sending back a set of defective sway bars does not correct the problem.
C) Racing beat my need to consider the possibility that the rear bar has a fitment issue as well as a mechanical issue.
D) I have no evidence that the front sway bar is bad. Then again I have no evidence that it is any good either. That is a fact. BUT I DO NOT TRUST THE POSSIBILITY THAT THE RACING BEAT SWAY BAR MAYBE GOOD.
Until proven otherwise I am going to assume that the Racing Beat Sway bars were made at the same facility with the same process.
The Mazdaspeed sway bars are as advertised (by FDnewBE) as the right bars for the car. The car corners as if on a rail. Then again anything would be better than the Racing Beat Bars.
Conclusion: A lot of time and energy was spent. I am left confused by Racing Beats response to my concerns. FDnewBE sells the real deal at a good price. I have other products on my car from Racing Beat and all of the highest quality. It appears that Mr. Tanner and I had a communication problem. I was not able to convince him of the concerns I had and he did not believe I would take the time to cross check him opinions.
Comments?
Mr Tanner has seen these bars before. I will find it interesting as to his response to the issues raised here.
A) The Racing Beat should consider the possibility of a quality control issues from their subcontractors
B) Mr Tanner may consider the possibility that just sending back a set of defective sway bars does not correct the problem.
C) Racing beat my need to consider the possibility that the rear bar has a fitment issue as well as a mechanical issue.
D) I have no evidence that the front sway bar is bad. Then again I have no evidence that it is any good either. That is a fact. BUT I DO NOT TRUST THE POSSIBILITY THAT THE RACING BEAT SWAY BAR MAYBE GOOD.
Until proven otherwise I am going to assume that the Racing Beat Sway bars were made at the same facility with the same process.
The Mazdaspeed sway bars are as advertised (by FDnewBE) as the right bars for the car. The car corners as if on a rail. Then again anything would be better than the Racing Beat Bars.
Conclusion: A lot of time and energy was spent. I am left confused by Racing Beats response to my concerns. FDnewBE sells the real deal at a good price. I have other products on my car from Racing Beat and all of the highest quality. It appears that Mr. Tanner and I had a communication problem. I was not able to convince him of the concerns I had and he did not believe I would take the time to cross check him opinions.
Comments?
03-09-07, 08:43 PM
#9
It sounds as if you have enough data to suppourt the idea that the rear bar is bad, or may not have been properly tempered... The front you don't really have any sort of a case on, but that you already stated. Good luck with RB. The main thing is that now you have on some sway bars that you are pleased with and the car handles like you wanted it to. Unfortunately it may come at a loss of cash on the RB bars.
I really do appreciate all of this information. I was actually looking into the RB bars and I will wait to see how they handle this problem of yours before ordering. I may just do the same as you and order the MS ones from fdnewbie. Maybe that is a better idea anyways.... But sounds like it would require a bit of waiting.
I really do appreciate all of this information. I was actually looking into the RB bars and I will wait to see how they handle this problem of yours before ordering. I may just do the same as you and order the MS ones from fdnewbie. Maybe that is a better idea anyways.... But sounds like it would require a bit of waiting.
03-09-07, 08:48 PM
#10
Originally Posted by Doc-1
FDnewBe gets into the picture. I ordered some hard to find Mazdaspeed sway bars for the seven and waited (the half life of a color TV) before I got them. I got them at a good price and I got the Mazdaspeed bushings to boot.
I'm sorry Doc...had some complications on that order for sure. But honestly, like 90% of it was Mazdaspeed's mixup. Nonetheless, my apologies for the extended wait, my appreciation for your patience, and my happiness for your satisfaction
Originally Posted by oo7arkman
I may just do the same as you and order the MS ones from fdnewbie. Maybe that is a better idea anyways.... But sounds like it would require a bit of waiting.
Originally Posted by Doc-1
Drove the car around and drove like a dream.
I hope everything works out w/ RB as well...~Ramy
FDNewbie Imports
03-09-07, 09:03 PM
#11
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While FDnewbe did take some time to get the part to me let me take the time to make it clear where I stand on this issue
I ordered several hard to find part from him. 1) A Mazdaspeed intercooler. one of a kind hard to find and cost like hell. He got it when no one else and I MEAN ON ONE ELSE said it was possible and I might add at a GOOD price. a real good price. He got me the Mazdaspeed sway bars and the right bushings as well.
No one is perfect and it did take some time BUT the parts I got were in perfect condition and as I ordered. Can't beat that with a stick.
Enough Said
I ordered several hard to find part from him. 1) A Mazdaspeed intercooler. one of a kind hard to find and cost like hell. He got it when no one else and I MEAN ON ONE ELSE said it was possible and I might add at a GOOD price. a real good price. He got me the Mazdaspeed sway bars and the right bushings as well.
No one is perfect and it did take some time BUT the parts I got were in perfect condition and as I ordered. Can't beat that with a stick.
Enough Said
03-09-07, 09:41 PM
#13
www.silverbulletrx7.com
Thanks Doc-1 for bringing this on to the forum. I too bought a RB rear bar, which was advertised by Tri-Point as the complement to their front adjustable bar. I have to say that I have never been pleased with it. First of all the bushings didn't fit in the stock metal clamps. I had to work a lot to get it to fit. I contacted RB about this and they basically dismissed me as a nobody. Next is the same problem you had with the binding. It is as if they made the bar but never tested it. I have aftermarket shocks, which are wider. I can't even use the outer hole and so I am forced to use the stiffer setting via the inside hole. My inspection showed that the inside hole on their bar is at the same location as the stock bar's single hole. The second hole that I can't use is an extension to the bar, which clearly interferes with the shock.
I'm not sure about the temper but maybe I'll check that this summer. If that is true I'll be even more disappointed with the quality of their products. I probably won't even be able to resell such a hunk of crap if it isn't tempered properly.
All I wanted was an adjustable rear bar but I can't even adjust it. Bah...
I'm not sure about the temper but maybe I'll check that this summer. If that is true I'll be even more disappointed with the quality of their products. I probably won't even be able to resell such a hunk of crap if it isn't tempered properly.
All I wanted was an adjustable rear bar but I can't even adjust it. Bah...
03-09-07, 10:36 PM
#14
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Last part
This is what eats you alive. By preloading a side of the car you are much more likely to lose control. If you have these bars there is a chance this is what you have in the rear.
03-09-07, 11:10 PM
#16
www.silverbulletrx7.com
Originally Posted by Doc-1
This is what eats you alive. By preloading a side of the car you are much more likely to lose control. If you have these bars there is a chance this is what you have in the rear.
One word, wow. That should be impossible with normal use. I will check my car ASAP for this problem.
dis1
03-09-07, 11:18 PM
#18
Originally Posted by Doc-1
While FDnewbe did take some time to get the part to me let me take the time to make it clear where I stand on this issue
I ordered several hard to find part from him. 1) A Mazdaspeed intercooler. one of a kind hard to find and cost like hell. He got it when no one else and I MEAN ON ONE ELSE said it was possible and I might add at a GOOD price. a real good price. He got me the Mazdaspeed sway bars and the right bushings as well.
No one is perfect and it did take some time BUT the parts I got were in perfect condition and as I ordered. Can't beat that with a stick.
Enough Said
I ordered several hard to find part from him. 1) A Mazdaspeed intercooler. one of a kind hard to find and cost like hell. He got it when no one else and I MEAN ON ONE ELSE said it was possible and I might add at a GOOD price. a real good price. He got me the Mazdaspeed sway bars and the right bushings as well.
No one is perfect and it did take some time BUT the parts I got were in perfect condition and as I ordered. Can't beat that with a stick.
Enough Said
On that note, Ramy could you pm me a price on these bars?
Thanks - Noah
03-09-07, 11:22 PM
#20
Another Racing Beat issue...Front bar
By coincidence (?) I called RB Wednesday to complain about my front bar. I installed the bar last July in time for the Larry Park memorial auto-X here in CA. Handling of the car was different since I had added the ft. bar, tokico's, more agressive wheel allignment and a strut tower brace. I looped the car a couple of times, but just figured I had to learn to set it up and / or learn to drive with the new set-up.
I've just been cruising the car around since last July, but last week did the pillow ball bushing replacement on the rear suspension. When the car was up on the rack, I discover the end bolt (through the end link) on the right side of the sway bar IS MISSING! It must have come loose and the final 1/4 inch of threads were completely gone. It may have happened at the auto-X, I will never know. We tapped the threads to a slightly larger size and installed a larger bolt to reassemble the car to get it home.
Called RB and they said it couldn't be a problem with the bar, I must have not tightened the bolt properly. YEA RIGHT, it's pretty tough to tighten 6 bolts and torque them. I told him that it definitely was installed correctly, and I suspected a problem with the machining of the threads, the bar itself or the bolt. After checking with someone while I was on hold, he repeated that their bars don't fail like mine did, and they wouldn't do anything about it.
(i.e. TOUGH ****!!!)
Not the best customer service in my opinion. I'm pretty leary about using the repaired bar, and I'm doing a track event at Thunderhill park in April. I'm tempted to reinstall the stock one.
Maybe they have quality problems at Racing Beat, and are not as reputable as they would like us to think. We definitely know they are not considering customers' concerns to be legitimate.
Anybody else having issues with their RB bars?????
I've just been cruising the car around since last July, but last week did the pillow ball bushing replacement on the rear suspension. When the car was up on the rack, I discover the end bolt (through the end link) on the right side of the sway bar IS MISSING! It must have come loose and the final 1/4 inch of threads were completely gone. It may have happened at the auto-X, I will never know. We tapped the threads to a slightly larger size and installed a larger bolt to reassemble the car to get it home.
Called RB and they said it couldn't be a problem with the bar, I must have not tightened the bolt properly. YEA RIGHT, it's pretty tough to tighten 6 bolts and torque them. I told him that it definitely was installed correctly, and I suspected a problem with the machining of the threads, the bar itself or the bolt. After checking with someone while I was on hold, he repeated that their bars don't fail like mine did, and they wouldn't do anything about it.
(i.e. TOUGH ****!!!)
Not the best customer service in my opinion. I'm pretty leary about using the repaired bar, and I'm doing a track event at Thunderhill park in April. I'm tempted to reinstall the stock one.
Maybe they have quality problems at Racing Beat, and are not as reputable as they would like us to think. We definitely know they are not considering customers' concerns to be legitimate.
Anybody else having issues with their RB bars?????
03-10-07, 12:31 PM
#23
Originally Posted by herblenny
I've sent RB a link to this thread and I hope they get on here and say something about it.. If not, I'm sending mine back and get an MS bars. Glad I read this, as I was going to install it this weekend!
PHIL
PHIL
