WVRx7

I would be interested in knowing just what action it is believed that the upper strut bar is doing to "improve handling" at street driving speeds and the cornering loads generated by street tires.

Is it believed that the front suspension is actually deflecting enough on the street to change the alignment and/or suspension geometry enough to give a noticable difference in "handling"

DamonB

Now you're asking a different question.

The original question was does the front strut tower brace improve the handling of the car? I say no. Now you're asking a different question; you're asking if there's a difference. Is there a difference? Yes. The difference I notice is that the initial turn in feels crisper through the steering wheel. I notice no real handling advantage though (and I could prove that in my case by removing the bar for a few runs at the next event and comparing the data...). Because the bar helps me feel what the car is doing I see it as advantageous, but IMO it's not really helping the car, it's helping me.

I could toss a coffee can full of marbles in the trunk and notice a huge difference in the car as well. Does that mean the car is better?

Shinobi-X

If literal handling is unaffected, then its unaffected. However, if the actual feedback created translates into an increased level of driver confidence, or communication which thus enables them to operate the car more effectively, then the vehicle as a whole serves its intended purpose, and is then "better" depending on who you ask. On the street, I can't say I've ever driven hard enough to reach the limits of the car or its supporting modifications, nor do I ever intend to; but what I get from driving is the enjoyment...a large part of driving is the subjective experience, so I suppose this sense of confidence is what it will appeal to.

dgeesaman

iTrader: (7)

By that rationale I should install a girlfriend-riding-shotgun-giving-head mod. I would feel a lot more confident and responsive then.

Dave

Tom93R1

iTrader: (2)

It depends on your definition of "on the street". If by that you mean driving the car like you are legally supposed to drive on the street it makes no difference at all. I have driven plenty with the front one off and with the rear one off and honestly couldnt tell a difference in normal city street and highway driving.
If "on the street" means pretending you are in second place at Laguna Seca and you have to make up a half second to take first then yes you will likely feel a difference

DamonB

Agreed. The danger however is it quickly becomes philosophical: "If I think the car is better, does that mean it is better?" I read Adam's original question as stating the car's performance envelope increasing with the front strut bar in place, and decreasing without it.

The way to prove if there is a performance gain is with numeric data. I'll try to remember to do so and log some runs on the same course both with and without the bar in place. Nobody get me wrong, I absolutely prefer the car with the bar in place, but I don't feel you're going to see any true measurable difference in my car's performance.

Shinobi-X

If you'd like to take the idea out of context, sure. However, the idea is the equivalent of an addition such as an over-assisted power steering system. Will the removal of it drastically alter actual handling limits? No, but the feedback it communicates will allow the driver to better connect with the tires and vehicle, and thus provide a sense of control that is absent when over-assisted. As subjective as it is, "feel" accounts for a lot in my opinion, though I won't intentionally confuse it with the cars literal performance, as DamonB pointed out.

dgeesaman

iTrader: (7)

I'm not trying to give you crap. If the bar affects feel more than actual measurable performance, I won't disagree with the idea, but I can't tell it myself.

But really in street driving, even if you could feel a little difference I'm pretty convinced that it won't be enough to have you driving differently. Again, not in the range of dynamics you can experience on a street.

Dave

edmcguirk

I look at it a little differently. If the chassis was actually moving any significant distance then the hood and hatch paint would be all chipped up from chassis flex.

A stiffer chassis might have a higher resonant frequency that would give you a nicer sound when you hit a bump or pothole. It would make the whole car feel more solid. That should not be confused with an increase in performance.

It is also kind of similar to ultra performance shock absorbers. You can't take advantage of the difference unless you are a top level driver at the edge of control.

Now on the other hand, I have a race car with a full cage. When I first started racing, it was common to jack one corner completely off the ground and then open and close the door quite easily. After a few years of racing I can now jack up one corner of the car and the door gets a little stuck. (as it gets older, my rod is going soft...)

I'm sure that every bit of stiffening would help to keep the car as stiff as new as I beat the hell out of it on the race track.

However I am too cheap to buy one.

ed

Doc-1

iTrader: (2)

I am confused. There must be a lot of experts here LMAO. I would be very carful taking advice from cake decoraters. Very few can or have built a car. I will take my advice for a ME thank you very much.

Doc

adam c

iTrader: (2)

I agree that there is a difference, and that the steering feels crisper. The front end has a much more solid feel. Does it make the car handle better? I say that it must. Of course, I don't have any data to back up my supposition. I would be very interested to hear what you find, if you do the test yourself.

In addition, I suspect that nearly every nationally competitive race car has a strut tower bar, unless rules prohibit it. This alone makes me assume that it increases performance .............. street or track

Doc-1

iTrader: (2)

Not the best work but my eye sight is going

adam c

iTrader: (2)

Doc,

Did you notice much of a difference between this, and the OEM bar?

BLKTOPTRVL

I added one shortly after buying my FD. Never felt any difference. I keep it only because (a) it can't hurt, (2) it's paid for.

StealthFox

iTrader: (2)

Doc-1

iTrader: (2)

It depends. Adding a part here and there is not the approach I use. I added the entire brace set, with new sway bars and bushings and Hem jounts with new schocks. The car will now turn as well as a mini and does much better than stock. The roll that the stock car is gone. Why did I not put coil overs on and stayed with stock coils. It is very hard to tune coil overs. It can be done but it is not worth the 5 to 6% difference. Coil overs need a lot of re-tuning as time goes on. I am not into that

I am not an expert in this area. However an expert helped me put the package together. He took off several seconds off his lap time. Why do I like it....The car is one hell of a fun car now and its handling is very predictable which makes is fun and I know just where the limits are time and time again and that my friend is hard very hard. The stock car had personallity and I did not like that.

I have almost no power mods. I do not need them for the type of driving I now do. If I want to go fast in a straight line I drive my Hemi dart. But that got boring or I got old.

Hope this helps

Improved FD

IaMtHeRuThLeSs1

Anyone else think they just look cool

mibad

I've had my R1 brace off and on many times and I feel a big difference in everyday driving.
I'm not an aggressive driver. The car just corners flatter. No doubt whatsoever.

DamonB

Racecars are not street cars; they are built for an entirely different set of conditions. Look at your original question again; you asked about on the street. Street cars don't need to be as rigid as racecars because they don't generate near the grip and thus the chassis isn't as heavily loaded. Adding a front strut tower bar to an FD does not increase its handling on the street. Feeling a difference does not mean an improvement, it merely means different.

Then your insistance that the braces made such a big difference is absolutely invalid. You can only insist that entire package made a difference and in that entire package 90% of the difference you feel is the new shocks and sway bars. Guaranteed.

The strut tower brace is not going to change the cornering attitude of the chassis in any way, shape or form.

adam c

iTrader: (2)

Not true. Many people drive their autocross and road racing cars on the street. You and your FD are a good example. Unless a car is a full on race car, that is always trailered, it is going to see some street use.

I think that you are missing the point. Some people push their cars hard, at times, on the street. I have a few places where I know it is safe to do this. No traffic, good visibility, and an area where there is margin for error. I have never spun out while doing this, but I have certainly pushed the car to its limits. While this isn't "normal" street driving, it must be considered street driving that is similar to being on the track.

I know that there will be people who will say that I shouldn't push the car like that on the street. I only do this in safe locations. Thats why I bought a high performance car. What's the point of having a great handling car if I never get to have any fun with it

DamonB

No, you're missing the point

That's all fine with me. The point is that whether your FD has a front strut bar or not the limits of your FD's handling are still the same.

adam c

iTrader: (2)

I disagree. Hopefully, you will be able to answer this question by doing the test at one of your events. I look forward to hearing about it.

Improved FD

c'mon dude, give it up....

this "stubborn, dumb little teenager" (you won't live that down, either, believe me) was right

mibad

The strut bar reduces chassis flex. You're telling me that won't affect the cornering attitude?
It reduces body roll...how can that not affect it?