So why are the sleek light kits so expensive
 

I mean its a fiberglass shell some fiberglass or ABS plastic and some lights, i mean i could probably "Probablu" make them for pretty cheap, just wondering what makes the light kits so expensive

Maybe we should all make it ourselves with our own materials! :p:

Yeah, I know what's the deal with the price on those things?! It's a monopoly I tellz ya!

i would definetly buy the kit from jim though depending on how it loox but i just dont understand why it costs so much

Since it's so in demand, and it's like the ONLY kit available, so they jack up the price for two friggin light bulbs and a piece of glass!

Re: So why are the sleek light kits so expensive
 

Find something that's aftermarket and not a replica/knockoff which isn't expensive.

The FD is not a cheap car to change/upgrade.

Pure simple market economics - it will sell for what the market will bear. If they did not sell at the limited volume that they are produced in, then they would be forced to lower their prices.

Unfortunetly (or fortunetly depending on your POV), the FD aftermarket is miniscule compared to the Civic aftermarket, so companies can not afford to take advantage of economies of scale - meaning the light kits are hand made in small numbers, for a tiny market.

As in any free market excercise, there is an equilibrium that is achieved between how much the companies (and the importers/middleman) can charge and how much the consumer is willing to pay. Considering that the various companies have a hard time keeping the kits in stock for the most part, they would be silly to sell it for less.

So my question is if they sold them for $150 or $200 instead of $900 (or what ever it is) how many of us FDs would purchase them?
I would. But not for $900 (probably not even for $500)
just my $.02
-Dave

It probably costs them 150-200 or over that, for the lights alone, don't ever look to see that price from anyone. just because they are a big business doesn't mean they get things for 50 cents..

The main reason for making something is to make money. And would you put tons of hours into designing and making something only to make a couple bucks off of it?? If you were a company who does these sort of things for a living?? No, You would try to get as much as you can for them..

There are not enough FDs out there, and too many differences in taste (meaning one may not like one model, but maybe another) for any given company to be able (or want to) make the manufacturing investments to bring the price down to that level. The numbers simply are not there.

Also, to have a light kit for that price level ($150 - $200, I assume your number just for argument's sake) would be near impossible, short of sticking some Roadboy(tm) PepBoys specials mounted with bent metal tabs under some lexan cut with shears...

Not defending them (because I'm certainly not proud of how much I've spent on mine), but its reality.

i remember this. then you would get a shift up in the demand curve initially if you lowered prices, thus changing the equilibrium. or something like that. actually i think it would be a double shift because supply would then go up as more people bought them and they sold in more volume cheaper. Then when the market was saturated demand would go down. I have no idea what I am talking about. SOmeone refresh my memory. Sometimes i wonder why i pay all this money for college if i don't even remember the crap a year later anyway. :confused:

Simple economics this and demand curve shifts that, it's easier to explain than these "simple" economics used. So this is what my degree is in (but you don't have to believe me if you don't want to), and duckyjp and dclin slighty nudged the real story behind the costs of the light kits.

Economies of scale

The FD market is small and the lights kits are produced in very small quanities. There simply isn't the market there for these companies to invest money into a mass-production vehicle ("vehicle" means ~"method" in this usage, not "car") to produce these lights. The companies also don't totally have the resources to do such. Imagine the hours and hours of labor and trial and error that Amemiya, C-West, and others went through to produce the final design for the lights ... "R&D costs" if you will. That's some serious undertaking for such small companies. Then you, the US consumer, are paying anywhere from 2-5 middle men's markup on those lights. But a lot of the cost is due to the economies of scale.

Here's an example -- my lights, which I have started. I'm making them on my own for a few reasons, mainly cost and the shitty lighting capability of the available aftermarket sleek lights. I knew I can also make something that looks better than all of those others. They have great lighting capabilites and they've also got real shape to them. The materials to make it might cost me ~$300 total (I couldn't get them again for less than $450, though), another $150 for the bulbs, so $500 for mine. But the time involved in making them is absurd, making brackets, making the edges, filling the donor shape and sanding, cutting lexan and heating it to try to get the right shape, and making sure that they're going to point straight! If someone wanted me to make some, with the hours and hours of labor involved, I couldn't charge less than $2000 (and I haven't finished them, so that's probably conservative ... and I don't value my time that much, so that's on the cheap). But I'd never do that -- it's too much work and people wouldn't understand that and they'd complain about the price -- and you'll never see my lights pictured for that reason. My lights are more sophisticated than those others, I think, but the lesson is the same -- they're all essentially hand-made from trial-and-error, not produced on a large scale.

The sleek light kit is under production as some of you might know. The housings and brackets are done. Why are sleek light kits so expensive? Sleek lights are expensive because the components are expensive.

Hella 90mm low and high beam: $260
Fiberglass housings: $200
stainless steel brackets: $50
lexan cover wth painted edges: $150
Total: $660
mark up $140
Retail: $800

Sounds reasonable?

Chuck

http://www.rotaryextreme.com/headlightkit1.jpg
http://www.rotaryextreme.com/headlightkit2.jpg
http://www.rotaryextreme.com/rebracket1.jpg
http://www.rotaryextreme.com/rebracket2.jpg

I'd rather invest in some quality HIDs for $800 bucks. Just my opinion, not my $.02

well said! time for me to dust of the ol diploma (bachelor of science in Economics) and a few books....

WOW!!!!!!!! Count me in!
 

The housings are looking great, I am desperate to see the final product

I kind'a like C-west's design:cool:

Am I the only one that likes the stock pop-up look better than the sleek light look? :confused:

I think so :D

I kind'a like C-west's design:cool:

:withstupi

I Prefer the PopUps also - But want a Lower profile when UP , Like KNIGHTSPORTS 4 headligt style and utilizing the HELLA 90mm Bulbs.

I hear ya Max... If/when I change from the stock pop-ups, it will be for another pop-up like the Knight Sports (or something similar should there be anything on the market at that time).

Re: WOW!!!!!!!! Count me in!
 

Find yourself a picture of an RE Amemiya light kit, and you'll have a picture of the "final product". Chuck is just knocking off someone else's design, not making his own.

And Chuck, while you're in the sharing mood, why don't you share with your prospective customers what they'll have to have cut out of the sheet metal of their car in order to mount this light kit you so masterfully copied.

There's a reason the cost of aftermarket parts is so high... one of those reasons is because you have to recoup your losses before less scrupulous people steal your research and development, copy your design, and then undercut your pricing...

And if you think an aftermarket light kit is expensive, try pricing the OEM Mazda parts which make up the stock lighting assemblies. I'm sure you'll find that the aftermarket kit is a bargain if you ever had to replace the stock lights.

Re: Re: WOW!!!!!!!! Count me in!
 

The housings will be modified so you don't have to cut any metal on the car. It's not an exact copy of the RE amemiya light. I am trying to improve the design and then make it more price friendly.

Don't jump into conclusion assuming the light pattern will be just like the original RE and also how everything mounted. It's not even done yet. I think you should just concentrate on your light project. I want to see how it turns out as well. Of course I won't go to your thread to mad mouth you. I am not that kind of person. Just trying to mind my own business and do my own things.

Chuck

Honestly, the stock pop-up headlights is part of the essence that captures the '90's era supercar feel...It's like the only car that has pop-up lights that won't look outdated in the future :)

That's exactly what I have coming out shortly. Here's a preproduction shot. This isnt EXACTLY what they'll look like as I just shoved them in the stock housings and held them up with a fuse cover. I just wanted to get a little idea as to how high they'd pop up and to take pictures to help with designing the brackets. They should pop up a little less than that when done I'm thinking. I'll keep everyone informed as to how they're coming along, but so far so good.

https://www.rx7club.com/forum/attach...&postid=464357

That looks very nice. good job!

Chuck

Re: Re: Re: WOW!!!!!!!! Count me in!
 

Technically, Chuck, you're not doing your own things... :)

But you're right, I shouldn't jump to conclusions. It's definitely possible that you solved the light bracket mounting issues that the RE kit has, and the need to cut a large chunk out of the sheet metal behind the pods.

Re: Re: Re: Re: WOW!!!!!!!! Count me in!
 

I guess making improvement and trying to provide a better solution at a lower cost is not doing my own things.

If you can improve the OEM design, why can't you improve an aftermarket design??

Impoving an OEM design = aftermarket = good

Improving an aftermarket design= knock off = bad

hmm.. why is that? I thought improvement was always good. I guess not.

Chuck

rotaryextreme,
the lights are looking good!
but $50 for brackets!?
you should be able to get those for a couple bucks each at home depot!!!

also, if you made the housings out of a different material would they be cheaper?? it's not like they have to be sturdy, they dont bear any weight, or move or anything.

the $800 price is definetely better than other kits,
but still a bit expensive.

Also, I hope the fit is good! :)

Those brackets are custom bent and cut by a machine shop. The material is also satin stainless steel. I don't think Home Depot Racing stuff can compare with those. I don't think I want to sell something that's composed of cheap components. I will get too many complaints and get a bad name.

As for the housings, it's made of fiberglass and that's the most cost effective way to make them. If you are talking about ABS plastic, you need to have a injection mold. I don't have a good source for that. I can't think of any other way to make the housings.

I already listed my cost. Still quite expensive but I don't think my profit margin is that great either.

As far as for fitment. Pictures will be coming soon after everything is complete.

Chuck

rx7even those pop ups are something your making or is that the knightsport kit? those are looking good, good enough to convince me that the sleek lights and all there inperfections (including cost) aren't worth it.

Yes they're something I am making and will soon have for sale. These are being designed from the ground up, but will ultimately resemble the Knightsports lights (there's just no real way around it). I love the Knightsports lights, so I guess it works out good. The lights in mine are different too. The Knightsports kit uses IPF (?) driving lights. Mine will use the Hella 90mm's, so they're have true hi/low beam, and be DOT legal. The lighting should be the best of any kit that's currently produced for these cars (I say currently because I haven't seen how Jim's and Chuck's will work yet since they're not finished either), much better than the current sleek lights and stock lights.

Ryan

Re: Re: WOW!!!!!!!! Count me in!
 

Man, where i come from, we call people like Jim a "hater." I'm not flaming or anything, Jim sounds like he does alot for these forum but don't hate on others that try to help others on the forum as well. Granted chuck mught be making a profit, but you are telling me Jim is not? HA! Nothing is for free here...duh. And technically if you are making a sleek headlight kit, you are copying RE or Cwest or whoever started the sleek headlight kit. Regardless of how it looks you are still copying the general idea. So jim, please don't think you are being orginally in your idea... Yours might look different but you are still biting off the orginals. And don't forget about the post i put on your thread, i was simplying mentioning that Chuck had his own kit, and you deleted my post... that is again, "hater." Please don't flame on someone elses thread when your are pratically trying to make the same product. Infact, i could say you are steeling Chuck's idea. He had the idea of making this long before you posted your thoughts of making one. Thanks for your efforts chuck and keep up the good work, "just shake them haters off." hahahhahaha

I work for a company that produces Plastic products. When I first read about Chuck and Jim building their own lights, I thought Hell, I could help! But, it is not cheap. Using the CAD design on the computer and then sending to a machine to make a mold or test run, is not to hard. The expence is making the Injection Form. Let's just say, They can run from $20,000 up to $50,000. I am sure someone could find it cheaper in the States? Then again, finding a company to produce such a small quantity at a low price can be difficult. I think it's great that Jim, Chuck and Ryan are trying to make something different...the same...knock-off or original. Good luck to them all!

Demand=Price. That's how it works. When someone makes a product that people want, and they are the only ones to have it. Get ready to pay for it.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: WOW!!!!!!!! Count me in!
 

Improve by innovating and engineering your own design, yes. Copy? No. That should have been obvious, I'd think.

Innovating a solution that improves on the OEM design = aftermarket = good

Innovating a solution that improves on any aftermarket designs = aftermarket = good

Slight modification of someone else's innovation using their part for a mold = knock off = theft of design

There's no real innovation there at all. It was someone else's idea and work and you took it and modified it as much as your morality demanded to make it "different" from theirs, and didn't come up with it on your own. It still looks like an RE Amemiya kit to me, regardless of how you mount the lights. Mounting the lights is the easy part, after someone else already went to the trouble and effort of designing a pod that would fit over them, right?

Well, whatever arguement works for convincing yourself that it's alright to steal from others, I guess.

Improvement is good when you're not stealing from someone else to make your own buck. If you'd designed a kit from the ground up to replace the stock headlights, like many others have done, and I am in the process of doing, that's fine. But I'll bet your attitude would take an immediate 180 degree turn if someone else bought your original kit, knocked it off, and started selling it for less than you were with slight "improvements".

It's all about perspective. You believe you're an entrepreneur, but from where I stand, you're just a pirate.

Re: Re: Re: WOW!!!!!!!! Count me in!
 

I'm not flaming or anything, but you sound amazingly like what people from where I come from would call an "idiot". Let's just use the phrase
"incredibly naive" though, to save someone's feelings from being hurt.

And they "copied" anyone who ever made a non-pop-up headlight before them, and so on and so on... the concept isn't new, the solution is.

They didn't copy anyone's design verbatim. They made their own solution, using their own design. They didn't knock someone else's kit off to make a quick buck, and steal the research and development that went into making it.

Then by that arguement, any new tire that comes out isn't an original design because it's round, made of rubber, and black, and someone made a round, black rubber tire before that. So how do tire companies patent their tread and compound designs so others don't pirate them?

There is no law that says I can't manufacture my own tire. There are laws that say I can't manufacture a tire by stealing and using the forumlas for the tread compounds from other manufacturers of tires, or by precisely copying their tread design, though. The idea of the tire isn't original. The work that went into designing one with better grip is.

You obviously don't understand anything about the time and cost of research and development. More than likely because you've never had any of it stolen from you...

Again, you obviously don't understand anything about designing and building your own product from the ground up.

It doesn't matter that M2 Performance and Pettit both provide intercoolers, or that the intercooler cores are, for the most part, identical in design and function and probably even both came from Spearco. The innovation is in the mounting scheme, the ability to fit the largest core size under the hood, and provide the most performance by minimizing pressure drop. That's why people will pay more money for an M2 Performance intercooler than they will for a Pettit intercooler, because the design is better. They both perform the same function, someone built a better design.

And they didn't steal someone else's design efforts to do it. I know the subtletly of theft of intellectual property is lost on you, but if you stopped for a moment and put yourself in the shoes of someone who had invested a great deal of time and effort in designing their own solution only to have it stolen by someone else, you might begin to get the picture.

You're right, Chuck had the idea to copy RE Amemiya's kit long before I decided to make my own kit from the ground up and invest time and money in actual research and development. Since our kits will look nothing alike, won't mount in the same manner, and won't use the same lights or materials, likely, where is the similiarity?

It's always funny to get "opinions" from naive, sheep-brained individuals who have no grasp whatsoever of what they're babbling about. If you think that all it comes down to is who started first, you're wrong. Try applying for a patent sometime. Innovation is the key to obtaining an individual, patentable design. Ask Chuck if he could patent his light kit after knocking off the pod from RE Amemiya. There's the difference.

Chuck, you're more than welcome to copy RE's kit to whatever extent you are, of course. I didn't stop by to turn this into a flame war, but wanted to point out what many people do not realize before buying, which is that the RE kit requires cutting sheet metal. I assumed that your kit would have the same requirements, being based, as it is, on the RE Amemiya pod.

The comment about finding a picture of an RE kit for pictures of the "finished product" was really intended to help someone, and you, indirectly. Anyone interested in your kit can get a very good idea of the finished design by looking at a picture of an RE Amemiya kit because of the "similarities" of the pods.

I do tend to have a problem with people who believe that everything is public domain and that if they're making it better, it's all right to take someone else's effort and build from it, possibly because I work in the software industry where plagiarism and theft of products is even easier.

I also had my bushing design copied directly by another company who simply measured a set of mine and copied the design right down to the one-piece core, the angled alignment flange, and the materials. I'm the one who did the work to arrive at those materials, went to the effort and expense of building and testing prototypes, and produced an alternative, innovative design to OEM and the other aftermarket alternatives. All they did was take a developed, successful design and copy it identically. There's no other term for that than theft.

At that time, no one else manufactured a complete bushing kit for the FD that offered anywhere near the same level of performance or was made from the same materials or used the same design. The concept and function of the suspension bushing is not new, my solution to the shortcomings of the OEM rubber bushings was.

I know for a fact that those of you who think that it's OK for original aero kit body pieces to be reproduced becuse you get a lower price would feel completely differently if you'd been the one who spent the hours and dollars to develop the original peice being knocked off. I don't expect you to understand it now, since you're just looking for a "good deal", but I do expect you to understand the difference and understand why I have objections to this type of activity.

Chuck, this is my last post in your thread, sorry for the interruption.

rx7even how much would your kit go for?

luigi

jimlamb
 

No, you just sound immature and offended. hahah Man you are a “hater” hahaha. Don’t reject that you are not. Embrace it. It’s ok to be a hater. We need people like you to keep equilibrium of haters and well, normal people. =) All the things you say are true, but if you understood what I was saying than you would understand that yes everyone’s copying each other and like chuck said earlier he is improving upon it. You act like it’s a bad thing. You said it yourself; the software industry does it quite often and easily. You flame on Chuck for what he’s doing yet you think what you are doing is totally different and OK. You can call names all you like, just shows that you are insecure and obviously have issues, probably extending from childhood abuse and being dropped on the head a few time (A LOT).

Take into mind no one was flaming on your thread, you came on here trying to make yourself look better because you think you are an innovator as opposed to a copy-cat. Instead you look foolish and started name-calling because you felt threatened. What a loser. I know why now people think you are what you are…a dick. =) Get real man; don’t try to make yourself look smarter and superior. I’m not a mechanic or a so-called inventor like you (LOL) but that doesn’t make any less intelligent as you are. However, you do seem quite dumb and naive yourself. LOL and I have made stuff from the ground up and I understand more so than you what an original idea is and what true innovation really consists of. You are no Einstein; you are luck to even be a Homer Simpson. hahahahah.

Um, that's a good question, it's still kinda early to tell, but I'm shooting for a price of around $600-$700.

And come on guys, can't we all just get along? :)

Ryan

600-700? about the same cost as knightsport. what is going to be the advantage of purchasing your light kit? i am very interested and that is why i am asking.

Jim:

Thanks for your help. I don't know what to say about your great help on trying to get more people to buy the improved sleek light kit that does not require any frame cutting and with improved lighting even though you gave them the wrong info about the improved sleek light kit.

For all your comments, I would like point out a few things:

1. If it's that easy to improve the sleek light kit, someone would have done it a long time ago including youself. You had your RE Amemiya kit for how long? About 5 years? Did you find a way to improve it? I guess not. So don't make it seem like this is an easy task. It's not. It does take a lot of time and money to improve something, especially I am doing it with my own money and no one else's to share the risk.

2. If someone else can make it cheaper and improve it even more, let him do the job. I will just buy from him. But I really doubt it or it would have been done a long time ago.

3. I didn't take anyone's money at this point. If I cannot find a way to improve it, it's my loss on the money and my effort spent on this project. Do people get their money back if your project doesn't go through or the final product is not up to their expectation?

4. I am probaby more famliar with the manufacturing process and the costs involved on varies materials than you because I have manufactured a lot more stuff than you either on performance parts of bodykits. If you can get your OEM headlight kit done for under $700, Mazda should hire you. Your expertise on suspension bushing and headlight for sure will make them more money.

5. Good luck on your project. Let's see if you can finish Mazda's unfinished business.


Chuck

Actually the Knight Sports one costs $950 plus shipping from Japan. I believe the Hella 90mm will have much better lighting than the IPF. IPF lights are really bad. On my old knight sports kit, I had to change out the IPF to the CATZ MSC to get better lighting. If he can make it look like the Knight Sports one with the bezel for $600-700, I think it's a good price.
http://www.rotaryextreme.com/kslight2.jpg

Re: jimlamb
 

Don't sell yourself short. You're a good deal less intelligent than I am.

Your intelligence literally drips from every word you type, and even from some of the words you leave out...

Yeah what Chuck said. Thanks Chuck. Ha I was about to say you're getting a heck of a discount if you found them for $600-$700. :) Keep in mind that that price isn't solid, that's just what I'm shooting for. I doubt very seriously it'll be less than that, but I'm hoping it won't go above that.

So that's what the Knightsports brackets look like huh? Hhmm, not even close to what mine will look like. Those appear as if they mount like standard fog/driving lights. The way they're coming along now, mine will mount just like the stock headlights and be just as adjustable. Hhmm, I think I'll go work on them now.

Ryan

check out takakaira.com, they have it for that price:

http://www.takakaira.com/aerokits/ae...enu.php3?cat=6

thats why i am confused. i do understand that you aree improving the lighting and trying to make it cost affective and ease of install. i am still interested and i appreciate you keeping us (me) posted and updated.

Re: jimlamb
 

u r an :asshole::fruit:

2954 Headlight Kit RX-7 91.12~ FD3S ¥93000
(US$729)

Re: Re: Re: Re: WOW!!!!!!!! Count me in!
 

Business is business