The Shop OVERHEATED my engine!
11-29-07, 05:39 PM
#52
Let's see - it takes about 5 to 6 mins for it to reach operating temperature. So another 10 or more minutes idling without fans to kick on to cool the coolant (even with it a mild 60ish outside) due to YOU not putting the fuse back in. Sucks but yeah, not their fault. Would you crank your dad's car and thinking everything is working like it supposed to worry about it overheating while it was idling? Then what if your dad came screaming out the door about the fan fuse, was it your fault or your dad's fault for the screw up?
Tim
Tim
11-29-07, 06:06 PM
#53
Senior Member
I just want to ask a question to the guys that feel this is his fault...
Do you see it as the Shops fault or his fault with this scenario
they went out and started the car and let it idle for 15 mins unattended................................... during that time an oil cooler line fails and causes a catastrophic failure.
Clearly in my veiw this is the shops fault, in both circumstances
IMHO
On the Farm we dont let anything idle unattended unless it has Murphy switches on oil pressure and water temp, for this very reason
Do you see it as the Shops fault or his fault with this scenario
they went out and started the car and let it idle for 15 mins unattended................................... during that time an oil cooler line fails and causes a catastrophic failure.
Clearly in my veiw this is the shops fault, in both circumstances
IMHO
On the Farm we dont let anything idle unattended unless it has Murphy switches on oil pressure and water temp, for this very reason
Last edited by zbrown; 11-29-07 at 06:12 PM.
11-29-07, 06:15 PM
#54
I just want to ask a question to the guys that feel this is his fault...
Do you see it as the Shops fault or his fault with this scenario
they went out and started the car and let it idle for 15 mins unattended................................... during that time an oil cooler line fails and causes a catastrophic failure.
Clearly in my veiw this is the shops fault, in both circumstances
IMHO
Do you see it as the Shops fault or his fault with this scenario
they went out and started the car and let it idle for 15 mins unattended................................... during that time an oil cooler line fails and causes a catastrophic failure.
Clearly in my veiw this is the shops fault, in both circumstances
IMHO
You are basically claiming that the body shop is responsible for anything that fails on a car after they get it - even if they did not cause the problem.
In health insurance terms, the car had a pre-existing condition.
11-29-07, 06:36 PM
#57
That doesnt make any sense.
So if a shop has a 2008 911 turbo for a widebody kit, they have the pieces on the car to see how it fits. Now they wanna park the car in the other lot until the next day, they leave the car running because they have to move another car. O wait, it overheats because the owner took out the relay for some reason, its the shops' fault?
No.
Leaving a car idling doesnt put the shop at fault at all. Its a car, like everyone said, there was no heads up, no caution, no warning saying so and so should be done, the car has this problem etc etc. So its not the shops fault they left to what they thought "a perfectly running car" idling for a couple of minutes and then it overheated.
Thats almost like saying i went to get gas and left the car running, i went into the gas station mini mart while the gas attendent was there. Then the car overheated cause he walked away to attend another car getting gas, i wanna sue the gas guy cause he was supposed to be watching my car since it was running.
Come on, if this was a known fault, most shops would be in big trouble. Its the owners fault 99% of the time, thats why this is an obvious incident.
11-29-07, 06:36 PM
#58
Zach,
So, who is this trust worthy Rotary shop in Bham?? Only one I know that has a rotary shop is on University..
Second, I agreee with DaveW.. personally, I dont think you did much damage by just idle for 20mins w/o fans.. Maybe if your water pump is shot and not circulating at all for 20 mins.. maybe.... But also your engine wasn't building that much heat at idle.. I actually drove my car from Huntsville to Bham non stop with coolant temp was so high, PFC stopped reading it at 124C. The engine had bad coolant seal and when we tore it up and spec'd the engine it wasn't warped.
I hate to say this but at this point, its a hard call.. I don't think you'll win if you made a lawsuit.. The guy didn't know and unless you guys had some sort of written or verbal agreement with a witness clearly stating to him that you DID NOT want the car to be idle for more than 10mins, its going to be a hard case to win.. Most people including myself would just start and let the car idle for mins.. I do that when I remote start my FD.. its set to idle for 10mins before shutting down..
But before you get upset about it, check and see if the car cools back down when the fans kick in..
So, who is this trust worthy Rotary shop in Bham?? Only one I know that has a rotary shop is on University..
Second, I agreee with DaveW.. personally, I dont think you did much damage by just idle for 20mins w/o fans.. Maybe if your water pump is shot and not circulating at all for 20 mins.. maybe.... But also your engine wasn't building that much heat at idle.. I actually drove my car from Huntsville to Bham non stop with coolant temp was so high, PFC stopped reading it at 124C. The engine had bad coolant seal and when we tore it up and spec'd the engine it wasn't warped.
I hate to say this but at this point, its a hard call.. I don't think you'll win if you made a lawsuit.. The guy didn't know and unless you guys had some sort of written or verbal agreement with a witness clearly stating to him that you DID NOT want the car to be idle for more than 10mins, its going to be a hard case to win.. Most people including myself would just start and let the car idle for mins.. I do that when I remote start my FD.. its set to idle for 10mins before shutting down..
But before you get upset about it, check and see if the car cools back down when the fans kick in..
11-29-07, 08:45 PM
#60
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if its not your car why would you do anything before calling the customer who obviously told you not to do anything before calling!
but anyway, it takes my car 15 to 20 minutes to warm up?? to 184.
but anyway, it takes my car 15 to 20 minutes to warm up?? to 184.
11-29-07, 09:09 PM
#61
You're missing key factors here.
It was a simple start and idle the shop did. They didnt take it around the block or rev it to see how the exhaust sounds.
For all you know, they prob had to move the car cause it was on the way, found out the battery was dead, jumped it and let it idle to charge it up.
Customer wanted a call before work was done. But no work was done so technically its still not the shops fault. The keys to his car were given to the shop meaning they have the right, agreed by car owner, to get the job done. Now if his car had to be started and moved because it affected the shops' progress, the shop had every right to do so. If not, then the key would have been returned to the owner after the car was dropped off to forbid ANY type of interaction with the employees and the FD. But that wasnt the case and i dont knwo of any customer that did that nor any shop that would tolerate a customer that paranoid about his/her car.
So again, not shops' fault.
Sorry monsterbox, im trying to see it your way, i dont wanna see you get fucked but its better you're hearing the reality here because you will lose if you get a lawyer.
It was a simple start and idle the shop did. They didnt take it around the block or rev it to see how the exhaust sounds.
For all you know, they prob had to move the car cause it was on the way, found out the battery was dead, jumped it and let it idle to charge it up.
Customer wanted a call before work was done. But no work was done so technically its still not the shops fault. The keys to his car were given to the shop meaning they have the right, agreed by car owner, to get the job done. Now if his car had to be started and moved because it affected the shops' progress, the shop had every right to do so. If not, then the key would have been returned to the owner after the car was dropped off to forbid ANY type of interaction with the employees and the FD. But that wasnt the case and i dont knwo of any customer that did that nor any shop that would tolerate a customer that paranoid about his/her car.
So again, not shops' fault.
Sorry monsterbox, im trying to see it your way, i dont wanna see you get fucked but its better you're hearing the reality here because you will lose if you get a lawyer.
11-29-07, 09:21 PM
#62
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well regs in most of canada for shops are as follows. If you weren't writen up to work on a specific component and it breaks or cause a problem afterwards and was otherwise working fine while it's at the shop, the shops in **** unless you signed a waiver or an underwritten waiver on your estimate :S so if it's done damage, I'd take em to the cleaners, rebuilds aren't cheap and not many people do em right so they have to cover it if you haven't handed them your *** by signing it.
11-29-07, 10:36 PM
#63
well regs in most of canada for shops are as follows. If you weren't writen up to work on a specific component and it breaks or cause a problem afterwards and was otherwise working fine while it's at the shop, the shops in **** unless you signed a waiver or an underwritten waiver on your estimate :S so if it's done damage, I'd take em to the cleaners, rebuilds aren't cheap and not many people do em right so they have to cover it if you haven't handed them your *** by signing it.
I'm sure even without a waiver signed.. I highly doubt you'll win..
11-30-07, 01:06 AM
#64
well regs in most of canada for shops are as follows. If you weren't writen up to work on a specific component and it breaks or cause a problem afterwards and was otherwise working fine while it's at the shop, the shops in **** unless you signed a waiver or an underwritten waiver on your estimate :S so if it's done damage, I'd take em to the cleaners, rebuilds aren't cheap and not many people do em right so they have to cover it if you haven't handed them your *** by signing it.
I can't see any grey area here.
11-30-07, 02:24 AM
#65
look first of all, the other shop on univeristy started the car to move it into his shop....it didn't hit 260 degrees....
GUYS seriously think about this....how long does it really take to hit 250-260 right below red on the stock gauge. Turning a car on and letting it idle from cold for 5-10 mins cant do this...i used to drive 8 miles in 17min traffic and it would still be below 200 degrees without the fans running. The shop clearly left the car unattended for an EXTENDED period of time which should be considered neglect.
I asked for the rear end to be repaird. The car was delivered on a tow truck because the wheel is bent like 45 degrees. THE CAR IS NOT DRIVEABLE. I would not even start the car and try to put it into gear until I was sure the differential wouldnt bind up etc. I also DID NOT ASK TO CHARGE THE BATTERY. They could have said you battery is dead would you like to car to run for a while to charge it. I also have almost no gas in the car and its been sitting for a month. This could be a hazard as well. They didnt take any precaution to the car. For all I know a coolant hose could have busted in the wreck. Theres absolutely no reason to need the fans to repair the car.
the main question is, why are the fans needed to repair the rear end of the car??
Why are the fans needed to repair my suspension?
Why are the fans needed to do anything I requested the shop to complete?
I have my own trickle charger and besides the FD probably can't adequetly charge the battery at idle. I honestly think they started the car up to bring it into the shop and forgot that it was running while being side tracked by customer ETC...i really dont not think they were trying to charge my battery.
Besides that, when the popped the hood they would notice there is no battery under the hood...right next to where the bat. would be is my fuse box without a cover and a fuse sitting right in the front that is raised out of the socket.. They should say hmm fuse popped up..wheresthe battery behind the seat. I honestly think this is neglect its justa matter of me proving it.
I even have an aftermarket water temperature gauge on the car which they didnt even take one look at.
Bottom line is the car had no reason to be started to accomplish the task at hand./
Who in the world shows up at a shop with an undriveable car and says please dont let the engine run for more than 30 minutes while you are fixing the tie rodss
and my final point is....
IF there was ANY reason to run the car to complete this suspension task, it would be RUN the car to move it in/out of the shop...in/out of the shop is not 20-30mins 260 operating temps.....this only occurs when the car had a specific reason to idle (charging bat which i did not ask for)............on top of all of this, if the shop was responsible and did not FORGET about the car and took one glance even within 15mins or so of running they would have had the luxury of seeing the rising temps on my gauge)
GUYS seriously think about this....how long does it really take to hit 250-260 right below red on the stock gauge. Turning a car on and letting it idle from cold for 5-10 mins cant do this...i used to drive 8 miles in 17min traffic and it would still be below 200 degrees without the fans running. The shop clearly left the car unattended for an EXTENDED period of time which should be considered neglect.
I asked for the rear end to be repaird. The car was delivered on a tow truck because the wheel is bent like 45 degrees. THE CAR IS NOT DRIVEABLE. I would not even start the car and try to put it into gear until I was sure the differential wouldnt bind up etc. I also DID NOT ASK TO CHARGE THE BATTERY. They could have said you battery is dead would you like to car to run for a while to charge it. I also have almost no gas in the car and its been sitting for a month. This could be a hazard as well. They didnt take any precaution to the car. For all I know a coolant hose could have busted in the wreck. Theres absolutely no reason to need the fans to repair the car.
the main question is, why are the fans needed to repair the rear end of the car??
Why are the fans needed to repair my suspension?
Why are the fans needed to do anything I requested the shop to complete?
I have my own trickle charger and besides the FD probably can't adequetly charge the battery at idle. I honestly think they started the car up to bring it into the shop and forgot that it was running while being side tracked by customer ETC...i really dont not think they were trying to charge my battery.
Besides that, when the popped the hood they would notice there is no battery under the hood...right next to where the bat. would be is my fuse box without a cover and a fuse sitting right in the front that is raised out of the socket.. They should say hmm fuse popped up..wheresthe battery behind the seat. I honestly think this is neglect its justa matter of me proving it.
I even have an aftermarket water temperature gauge on the car which they didnt even take one look at.
Bottom line is the car had no reason to be started to accomplish the task at hand./
Who in the world shows up at a shop with an undriveable car and says please dont let the engine run for more than 30 minutes while you are fixing the tie rodss
and my final point is....
IF there was ANY reason to run the car to complete this suspension task, it would be RUN the car to move it in/out of the shop...in/out of the shop is not 20-30mins 260 operating temps.....this only occurs when the car had a specific reason to idle (charging bat which i did not ask for)............on top of all of this, if the shop was responsible and did not FORGET about the car and took one glance even within 15mins or so of running they would have had the luxury of seeing the rising temps on my gauge)
Last edited by Monsterbox; 11-30-07 at 02:35 AM.
11-30-07, 05:38 AM
#66
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I wouldnt blame the garage as many people of said there is something seriously wrong with a car that cant idle for 15 minutes... Even a rotary. I think the best thing would have been to remove the battery all together if you didnt want people starting your car and had it towed there anyway.
Anyway did anyone check the level of coolant before it went to the shop?
The only way I could see that it would hit those temps in such a short time is if there wasnt much coolant in it to begin with?
Anyway did anyone check the level of coolant before it went to the shop?
The only way I could see that it would hit those temps in such a short time is if there wasnt much coolant in it to begin with?
11-30-07, 07:05 AM
#67
Stud Service
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might as well just get the car fixed(suspension), and hope for the best. Might be ok and you went through all this stress for nothing. Only thing that's going to make you feel good now is to get the car on the road for a long spirited drive.
11-30-07, 11:05 AM
#69
Realistically I will never sue over this situation, even If I had a clear cause. Court costs and the risk/time/hassal involved in filling a lawsuite against any shop is going to be way more hassal than just paying for a rebuild with perfectly good housings. I was just looking for a general opinion on what attitude I should take with the shop. If they think I may sue them or I convince them that they are wrong and are afraid of court chances are they would settle outside. Such as split the cost of the engine, etc.
Anyhow, they ran the car yesterday for a half hour with coolant and eyes on the gauges w/ fans going. It didn't move above 185F
I requested to do a block test in person when I return (hydrocarbon test). Whats else should I do to be absolutely sure the engine is not damaged?
Hydrocarbon shows no exhaust gases in the coolant but can't theres be coolant burning in the engine that won't show up on a block testing?
Anyhow, they ran the car yesterday for a half hour with coolant and eyes on the gauges w/ fans going. It didn't move above 185F
I requested to do a block test in person when I return (hydrocarbon test). Whats else should I do to be absolutely sure the engine is not damaged?
Hydrocarbon shows no exhaust gases in the coolant but can't theres be coolant burning in the engine that won't show up on a block testing?
11-30-07, 11:13 AM
#70
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Another factor you have to consider is the fubar factor, is your car modified? Now that my car has no carpet in it and a pair of bride racing seats, a Nardi wheel, and a custom dash insert with switches, every shop that sees it other than the tuning shop that I know the owner of, now thinks it's a freaking race car. The guys at this shop could've figured well **** it's a race car lets dick around in it... always something to consider. Especially because if you rev a rotary, IT HEATS UP!
11-30-07, 12:13 PM
#71
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Way to take some responsibility here. You leave the car there with a craptastic battery in it, and no fuse or whatever for the fan. WTF did you think they would do with a car that needed to be jump started??
Ive spent some time as a mechanic so I am a bit biased. I prolly would have watched the guage just becuse I know how some rx-7 owners can do some really dumb **** to thier cars.
The guy that let the car idle prolly just wanted a shitbox that would not need to be jumpstarted everytime he moved it. Are you honestly telling me that expecting a car to idle for 30min is asking too much of it? My VW with 500k+ miles on it will idle till it runs out of gas.
Point is you need to man up here. You fucked up, so take some responsibility. If you want to sit and be a lillyass about it then yeah, the shop should take some responsibility for not lookin at the guage.
Your engine is either fine or it is not. Quit worryin about hydrocarbons and just hope for the best but expect the worse. It is prolly fine.
Ive spent some time as a mechanic so I am a bit biased. I prolly would have watched the guage just becuse I know how some rx-7 owners can do some really dumb **** to thier cars.
The guy that let the car idle prolly just wanted a shitbox that would not need to be jumpstarted everytime he moved it. Are you honestly telling me that expecting a car to idle for 30min is asking too much of it? My VW with 500k+ miles on it will idle till it runs out of gas.
Point is you need to man up here. You fucked up, so take some responsibility. If you want to sit and be a lillyass about it then yeah, the shop should take some responsibility for not lookin at the guage.
Your engine is either fine or it is not. Quit worryin about hydrocarbons and just hope for the best but expect the worse. It is prolly fine.
11-30-07, 12:55 PM
#73
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Look dude, I mean no disrespect when I say this, but your completely missing the point. As GregW already stated, 99.9% of the vehicles that go through the body shop will have no trouble idling until they run out of gas. You stated earlier that the cooling system was not working properly, and you turned over the car without saying anything. You had to expect them to move the car after they worked on it! Now I agree that it was shitty for someone to leave a car running unattended, but think about it for a moment: It sounds to me like the shop was trying to do you a favor by charging up a dead battery! Even if you don't look at it that way, you know you would be irritated to find your car's battery dead when you came to pick it up, and you may have even blamed it on them.
Your comparing this to having an apex seal blown after having a tire plugged, and I couldn't disagree more. We know what it takes to blow an apex seal, and we all know it won't happen pulling into or out of a garage. If your car came back with a blown apex seal after getting the tire plugged, you can be reasonably sure that someone took your car for a joyride. Obviously that would be above and beyond what is necessary to repair a tire, and you would have a reason to be upset.
As I stated earlier, I am just not comfortable bringing my cars to a shop anymore. If for some reason I have to take them somewhere, you better believe that explicit instructions are given, and I take every precaution I can. I do not drop off a car with personal items in it. I always record the mileage, and if the car has any other problems, I MAKE them notate what they are on the work order so that the mechanic knows. Case in point: When I dropped my DD off for tires, I made the guy notate that the emergency brake did not work very well, and that the keyless entry did not work. Had I not done this, and they left the car unlocked, it would have been MY fault if something was stolen.
Its all about the transfer of risk. If your not covering your ***, then you should expect bad **** to happen....
Your comparing this to having an apex seal blown after having a tire plugged, and I couldn't disagree more. We know what it takes to blow an apex seal, and we all know it won't happen pulling into or out of a garage. If your car came back with a blown apex seal after getting the tire plugged, you can be reasonably sure that someone took your car for a joyride. Obviously that would be above and beyond what is necessary to repair a tire, and you would have a reason to be upset.
As I stated earlier, I am just not comfortable bringing my cars to a shop anymore. If for some reason I have to take them somewhere, you better believe that explicit instructions are given, and I take every precaution I can. I do not drop off a car with personal items in it. I always record the mileage, and if the car has any other problems, I MAKE them notate what they are on the work order so that the mechanic knows. Case in point: When I dropped my DD off for tires, I made the guy notate that the emergency brake did not work very well, and that the keyless entry did not work. Had I not done this, and they left the car unlocked, it would have been MY fault if something was stolen.
Its all about the transfer of risk. If your not covering your ***, then you should expect bad **** to happen....
