regarding the synthetic oil debate
07-21-02, 11:37 PM
#26
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Let us continue gmonsen.
We have several common characteristics or classification for oil. In order to evaluate these for our rotary purposes I am going to make some assumptions. Those being that we care utmost for high temperature characteristics.
Low temperature I will ignore. This means that of these characteristics, I am going to ignore pour point for our discussion. Why you ask? Well the pour point relates to the oil at low temperatures. The pour points of the synthetic oils in question are below -30F. If you are turning over your engine or driving at that temp then your are driving in the winter. In that case you deserve to be kicked in the crotch and your FD taken from you because:
1) You are driving in temps where you will **** up your turbos quickly.
2) You are driving in temps where they salt the road and will corrode your FD.
3) You are driving in temps that correspond to low traction due to precipitation so you will spin out and **** up your Fd.
That leaves us with Ash, Flash Point, Viscosity Index and Shear (HT/HS).
We have covered Ash. I will include it in the next batch of numbers, however.
Flash point is the temperature at which the oil will start converting to vapor(gas). Not good. The higher this number the better
Viscosity Index is the rate of change where the oil will become less viscous/thick over a temperature range. The more it changes, the less lubrication properties it retains. The higher this number, the lower the change (doesn't make sense to me, it should be the opposite).
Shear is the degree that the oil retains its stability under high temperature, high stress conditions (high RPMS). The higher this number the better.
Survey says:
Brand Ash Flash VI Shear
Amsoil 0.05 464/446 171/177 3.5
Red Line 0.85 475 150 3.6
Mobil 1 0.85/.90 430/470 147 3.4
Castrol .90/.93 455 157/161 3.3
Quaker State 1.0/1.1 410/440 148/156 3.2
Havoline F3 1.0 482 139/148 3.23
Union 76 1.1 480 3.4
Chev. Sup Syn 1.1 446 165
NEO 1.3 470 185 3.4
Spectro Golden 405 175
Royal Purple 400 148
This means trade off time.
Best Ash: AMSOIL
Best Flash: Havoline
Best Viscosity Index: NEO
Best Shear: Red Line
So what you need to do is compare all the factors. Then you can either choose a certain characteristic that means the most for you, or look for a balance.
We have several common characteristics or classification for oil. In order to evaluate these for our rotary purposes I am going to make some assumptions. Those being that we care utmost for high temperature characteristics.
Low temperature I will ignore. This means that of these characteristics, I am going to ignore pour point for our discussion. Why you ask? Well the pour point relates to the oil at low temperatures. The pour points of the synthetic oils in question are below -30F. If you are turning over your engine or driving at that temp then your are driving in the winter. In that case you deserve to be kicked in the crotch and your FD taken from you because:
1) You are driving in temps where you will **** up your turbos quickly.
2) You are driving in temps where they salt the road and will corrode your FD.
3) You are driving in temps that correspond to low traction due to precipitation so you will spin out and **** up your Fd.
That leaves us with Ash, Flash Point, Viscosity Index and Shear (HT/HS).
We have covered Ash. I will include it in the next batch of numbers, however.
Flash point is the temperature at which the oil will start converting to vapor(gas). Not good. The higher this number the better
Viscosity Index is the rate of change where the oil will become less viscous/thick over a temperature range. The more it changes, the less lubrication properties it retains. The higher this number, the lower the change (doesn't make sense to me, it should be the opposite).
Shear is the degree that the oil retains its stability under high temperature, high stress conditions (high RPMS). The higher this number the better.
Survey says:
Brand Ash Flash VI Shear
Amsoil 0.05 464/446 171/177 3.5
Red Line 0.85 475 150 3.6
Mobil 1 0.85/.90 430/470 147 3.4
Castrol .90/.93 455 157/161 3.3
Quaker State 1.0/1.1 410/440 148/156 3.2
Havoline F3 1.0 482 139/148 3.23
Union 76 1.1 480 3.4
Chev. Sup Syn 1.1 446 165
NEO 1.3 470 185 3.4
Spectro Golden 405 175
Royal Purple 400 148
This means trade off time.
Best Ash: AMSOIL
Best Flash: Havoline
Best Viscosity Index: NEO
Best Shear: Red Line
So what you need to do is compare all the factors. Then you can either choose a certain characteristic that means the most for you, or look for a balance.
07-22-02, 01:36 AM
#27
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I see Castrol GTX listed in the ash content, flash and stuff table, is that the dino Castrol GTX that most of us have been using? or is it the Castrol synthetics.
Also now enough about oil since we pretty much generalized down to Amsoil, Redline and Mobil 1, what oil filter is best?
Tx.
Timmy
Also now enough about oil since we pretty much generalized down to Amsoil, Redline and Mobil 1, what oil filter is best?
Tx.
Timmy
08-03-02, 06:38 AM
#31
Ghost Ride the Whip
I heard that synthetic oil ruins the o-rings in the rotary engine and also when it gets hot it turns into a gooey substance. However with synthetic oil, the car runs much cooler oil and water temps. Since I have a single turbo now, I'm going to use synthetic. I'm thinking either redline, royal purple, or mobil 1. Which one of these are best? My car will be seeing a lot of heavy track use (road racing).
08-03-02, 09:23 AM
#34
Blow up or win
Originally posted by gmonsen
excuse me juliof. could you point me to the data that proves that synthetic oil use does not lengthen the life of the motor? or the time between oil changes? i have not seen this thread or study and really want to read it. necause, unfortunately, most of this debate, as with certain other debates here, end up being "anecdotal speculation" and nothing like conclusive proofs or facts of any sort.
i have been using redline oil since 1996 or 1997 in my car. basically using it from new over 2 motors. (my original motor, which never blew and the one peter farrell swapped into my car unbeknownst to me, which DID blow, and the new reman i replaced that with which has not blown.) i change oil every 3-5000 miles and would think of changing it any sooner.
i do not think these cars are all that sensitive or delicate when treated properly and tuned well. i started a thread a while ago pointing out that it was my firm belief that motors blow a lot less these days, because we have good aftermarket computers and widebands to let us know how to tune them to a proper A/F ratio. some members of this forum completely missed the interestinmg points being made and concluded that the real reason that fewer engines were blowing was because of the forum... which is completely rerroneous, since there has always been the big list and the people on the big list, as well as the forum, used to blow their engines regularly, because they didn't know how to get the right AFR's. nevermatter.
but it does point something out that i think is important sand that i tried to say here on this thread. there are a fair number of guys on this forum who have been doing these things a long time and have accumulated some real knowledge. they include gene felber, jim labreck, steve kan, myself and others, for example. however, when one of these older and more knowledgeable guys says something, it isn't given the proper amount of weight by many members of the forum. if one of these "senior" members of the forum says something on a topic, its not god speaking, but it should be given a lot of weight. we've paid a lot of dues to learn what we've learned. if some 20 year old with 50 posts who's had his rx7 for a year chimes in with a completely opposite view, it should not be given very much weight at all, unless there are facts and data presented that make that opposing view compelling.
i don't think any of us want to try to sound in any way "superior" and this topic is never brought up, although i know that others, like myself, experience a frustration when something we say that we are very sure is true is ignored. the synth debate is a very good exmple of this. quite a few of the senior members tell why synth is a good thing and there comments are treated equally with those from less experienced junior members. now, the forum is an egalitarian construct, but its still foolish not to take advantage of the learning and experience available.
-gordon
excuse me juliof. could you point me to the data that proves that synthetic oil use does not lengthen the life of the motor? or the time between oil changes? i have not seen this thread or study and really want to read it. necause, unfortunately, most of this debate, as with certain other debates here, end up being "anecdotal speculation" and nothing like conclusive proofs or facts of any sort.
i have been using redline oil since 1996 or 1997 in my car. basically using it from new over 2 motors. (my original motor, which never blew and the one peter farrell swapped into my car unbeknownst to me, which DID blow, and the new reman i replaced that with which has not blown.) i change oil every 3-5000 miles and would think of changing it any sooner.
i do not think these cars are all that sensitive or delicate when treated properly and tuned well. i started a thread a while ago pointing out that it was my firm belief that motors blow a lot less these days, because we have good aftermarket computers and widebands to let us know how to tune them to a proper A/F ratio. some members of this forum completely missed the interestinmg points being made and concluded that the real reason that fewer engines were blowing was because of the forum... which is completely rerroneous, since there has always been the big list and the people on the big list, as well as the forum, used to blow their engines regularly, because they didn't know how to get the right AFR's. nevermatter.
but it does point something out that i think is important sand that i tried to say here on this thread. there are a fair number of guys on this forum who have been doing these things a long time and have accumulated some real knowledge. they include gene felber, jim labreck, steve kan, myself and others, for example. however, when one of these older and more knowledgeable guys says something, it isn't given the proper amount of weight by many members of the forum. if one of these "senior" members of the forum says something on a topic, its not god speaking, but it should be given a lot of weight. we've paid a lot of dues to learn what we've learned. if some 20 year old with 50 posts who's had his rx7 for a year chimes in with a completely opposite view, it should not be given very much weight at all, unless there are facts and data presented that make that opposing view compelling.
i don't think any of us want to try to sound in any way "superior" and this topic is never brought up, although i know that others, like myself, experience a frustration when something we say that we are very sure is true is ignored. the synth debate is a very good exmple of this. quite a few of the senior members tell why synth is a good thing and there comments are treated equally with those from less experienced junior members. now, the forum is an egalitarian construct, but its still foolish not to take advantage of the learning and experience available.
-gordon
08-08-02, 12:32 PM
#35
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Synthetics due last longer, about twice as long as DIno juice, however, carbon is still building up. Synthetics can withstand the heat and degrade much slower than petro-oil, but who is gonna leave oil in an FD for 4,0o0miles? Here a cool trick, the OMP actually disagrees with synthetics, thats why regular oil is reccomended. Serious racers(pettit, Lopez racing, rotary world) Use a close system OMP. The rotary engine uses synthetic while the OMP has a seperate "can" with 20-50.
08-08-02, 12:46 PM
#36
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I just switched to Mobil 1 this week. The car seems to generally run smoother. I still don't have a temp gauge so I can't verify lower temps yet.
Rick (Rick's Rotary) feels the greatest benefit of synthetic is for the turbos, not just the engine.
Rick (Rick's Rotary) feels the greatest benefit of synthetic is for the turbos, not just the engine.
09-03-04, 02:44 AM
#37
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Dino vs. synthetic oil
Originally Posted by gmonsen
excuse me juliof. could you point me to the data that proves that synthetic oil use does not lengthen the life of the motor? or the time between oil changes? i have not seen this thread or study and really want to read it. necause, unfortunately, most of this debate, as with certain other debates here, end up being "anecdotal speculation" and nothing like conclusive proofs or facts of any sort.
I have been using redline oil since 1996 or 1997 in my car. basically using it from new over 2 motors. (my original motor, which never blew and the one peter farrell swapped into my car unbeknownst to me, which DID blow, and the new reman i replaced that with which has not blown.) i change oil every 3-5000 miles and would think of changing it any sooner.
i do not think these cars are all that sensitive or delicate when treated properly and tuned well. i started a thread a while ago pointing out that it was my firm belief that motors blow a lot less these days, because we have good aftermarket computers and widebands to let us know how to tune them to a proper A/F ratio. some members of this forum completely missed the interestinmg points being made and concluded that the real reason that fewer engines were blowing was because of the forum... which is completely rerroneous, since there has always been the big list and the people on the big list, as well as the forum, used to blow their engines regularly, because they didn't know how to get the right AFR's. nevermatter.
but it does point something out that i think is important sand that i tried to say here on this thread. there are a fair number of guys on this forum who have been doing these things a long time and have accumulated some real knowledge. they include gene felber, jim labreck, steve kan, myself and others, for example. however, when one of these older and more knowledgeable guys says something, it isn't given the proper amount of weight by many members of the forum. if one of these "senior" members of the forum says something on a topic, its not god speaking, but it should be given a lot of weight. we've paid a lot of dues to learn what we've learned. if some 20 year old with 50 posts who's had his rx7 for a year chimes in with a completely opposite view, it should not be given very much weight at all, unless there are facts and data presented that make that opposing view compelling.
i don't think any of us want to try to sound in any way "superior" and this topic is never brought up, although i know that others, like myself, experience a frustration when something we say that we are very sure is true is ignored. the synth debate is a very good exmple of this. quite a few of the senior members tell why synth is a good thing and there comments are treated equally with those from less experienced junior members. now, the forum is an egalitarian construct, but its still foolish not to take advantage of the learning and experience available.
-gordon
I have been using redline oil since 1996 or 1997 in my car. basically using it from new over 2 motors. (my original motor, which never blew and the one peter farrell swapped into my car unbeknownst to me, which DID blow, and the new reman i replaced that with which has not blown.) i change oil every 3-5000 miles and would think of changing it any sooner.
i do not think these cars are all that sensitive or delicate when treated properly and tuned well. i started a thread a while ago pointing out that it was my firm belief that motors blow a lot less these days, because we have good aftermarket computers and widebands to let us know how to tune them to a proper A/F ratio. some members of this forum completely missed the interestinmg points being made and concluded that the real reason that fewer engines were blowing was because of the forum... which is completely rerroneous, since there has always been the big list and the people on the big list, as well as the forum, used to blow their engines regularly, because they didn't know how to get the right AFR's. nevermatter.
but it does point something out that i think is important sand that i tried to say here on this thread. there are a fair number of guys on this forum who have been doing these things a long time and have accumulated some real knowledge. they include gene felber, jim labreck, steve kan, myself and others, for example. however, when one of these older and more knowledgeable guys says something, it isn't given the proper amount of weight by many members of the forum. if one of these "senior" members of the forum says something on a topic, its not god speaking, but it should be given a lot of weight. we've paid a lot of dues to learn what we've learned. if some 20 year old with 50 posts who's had his rx7 for a year chimes in with a completely opposite view, it should not be given very much weight at all, unless there are facts and data presented that make that opposing view compelling.
i don't think any of us want to try to sound in any way "superior" and this topic is never brought up, although i know that others, like myself, experience a frustration when something we say that we are very sure is true is ignored. the synth debate is a very good exmple of this. quite a few of the senior members tell why synth is a good thing and there comments are treated equally with those from less experienced junior members. now, the forum is an egalitarian construct, but its still foolish not to take advantage of the learning and experience available.
-gordon
http://www.xs11.com/stories/croil96.htm
This independent test cofirmed dino and synthetic motor oils do not show any measureable difference in engine wear over 60K miles of testing.
Personally, I have always used store brand 10w30 stock Dino oil from auto parts retailers at approx. $1.00 per qt. in my 1988 RX7 SE non-turbo with 230K original miles (car bought new in 1988). According to Mazda dealer, original rotary engine pulls strong and compression is satisfactory at 7.5 for rear and 8.1 for front chamber. Car idles at 750 rpms with minimal engine vibration and it burns 1 qt. of oil every 700-800 miles.
Gordon
09-03-04, 02:38 PM
#40
2/4 wheel cornering fiend
Originally Posted by adam c
Wow, a two year old thread, and an 8 year old article. Very timely.
09-03-04, 04:39 PM
#41
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To rid your engine of unwanted grime, consider AutoRx engine cleaner. I read a very supportive opinion of AutoRx on the consumer report's web site. I am cycling it thru my Suburban right now and the FD is next. When and if I get it back before the first snow from the paint shop. My brother had a 1967 Corvette for 2 1/2 years, and had it restored to prime condition. He only had it available to drive for 12 months out of 30.
09-03-04, 04:48 PM
#42
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There are so many articles that provide no end. Honostly, your best test is see what others have said. Yes, synth is better. No, dino isnt bad. Personaly my engine has been run since break-in (11k miles ago) on royal purple, then switched to castrol synthetic. Not a single problem. Engine runs like a champ. Oil consumption is minimal too.
09-03-04, 05:29 PM
#43
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From what I have read, there are 2 reasons why why synthetics should lower engine temps:
1. A good synthetic, like Redline will not bead up on the hot surface, leaving certain parts exposed to friction and increase heat due to a lesser heat exchange from reduced contact.
2. Synthetic is more slippery and therefore there is less resistence
1. A good synthetic, like Redline will not bead up on the hot surface, leaving certain parts exposed to friction and increase heat due to a lesser heat exchange from reduced contact.
2. Synthetic is more slippery and therefore there is less resistence
09-03-04, 10:21 PM
#44
Rotary Enthusiast
It's not so much that synthetics lower engine temps but that they continue to perform well if engine temps get really high. I think sythetic is great for any turbocharged car or for track driven cars. Will it make nasty deposits in your rotary engine? I dunno... but many, including me, have used it in our rotaries for years with no negative effects.
09-04-04, 11:45 AM
#48
fart on a friends head!!!
gee. . . not using synthetics is a myth. . . A MYTH!!!! quit this stupid crap. . . wait, im just adding to it. . . DO WHATEVER YOU WANT TO YOUR CAR!!!!! NOBODY CARES!!!!
paul
paul