BigIslandSevens

iTrader: (4)

here you go enjoy. The engine mount going out is the main issue, however is that extra damage worth the chance ? NO imo. BUT that would not happen with solid engine mounts

https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...e+brace+damage

Spirit_Rotary_7

damn.. it looks like someone shot a bullet through the fender wall..

jdhuegel1

Sorry but I think Mazda would have "braced" up the car if it really needed it. Just replace all the worn parts and stop bolting all this unnecessary gadgetry all over the place!

Herblenny

iTrader: (13)

The picture Big Island post isn't from Garfinkle's old brace.. That's from some cheap knock off brace..

I've searched for a brace and did some research.. And Garfinkle's brace was the best one I've seen.. With large plate to distribute the stress and solid brace. Yes, best way would be to replace all the worn parts, or not mod your car at all. Most 7 owners aren't going to spend time replacing the mounts and such when easiest would be to add a brace.. I did because its temporary fix until I get the motor replaced.. which, I'm still going to use the brace with my urethane mounts when my new engine goes in this march..

Anyhow, this debate have been talked about many many times.. Its upto each person to do what ever they wish.. either replacing mounts (stock, solid, urethane) or Garfinkle's brace or feed, or some other ebay knock offs..

BigIslandSevens

iTrader: (4)

>>Most 7 owners aren't going to spend time replacing the mounts and such when easiest would be to add a brace.. <<


There is a difference between easy and lazy!. It appears that most of the owners on here are lazy. And would rather "band-aid" fix the car instead of replace the worn parts properly. I realize you are doing it for temporary. But why spend over half the cost of new mounts on a temp. and possibly damaging band-aid?To each his own i guess.

It takes less than 1 1/2 hours to replace engine mounts. It is not rocket science.
I venture to guess it takes at least that long to drill holes in your fenderwall and mount the band-aid err..umm "torque brace" in place. How long did it take to put in?

Herblenny

iTrader: (13)

BigIsland.. I understand that most of us are lazy.. Me included.. I'm not going to deny that..LOL!

It took me about 2 hours to put in his brace.. But I think you are forgetting that most of us don't have cherry picker to lift the engine and take the mounts off.. I'm pretty sure that's one way that I know of..

i'm not trying to make excuses.. but my mounts weren't bad (after taking them off with my engine).. they were good stock mounts.. just not urethane or solid.. Adding Garfinkle's brace made the car more like urethane or solid mounts.. Its a good, cheap, lazy alternative..

saxyman990

You don't need a cherry picker to change motor mounts. A standard car jack placed underneath the tranny works just as well. Anybody that owns an fd BETTER have a decent floor jack.

Herblenny

iTrader: (13)

LOL! Thats true.. You could use a jack also.. I have a picker at home..

rotorbrain

howard, i dont believe it would benefit you to get the new brace. you have poly nuts holding yours on and youd have to get them out. . . im sure that isnt an easy task. the reason he did this "new run" of braces is because the total cost of shipping and explanation goes down. im not too sure that the plate on the back is for added strength. . . only there to make installation simpler for those who arent familiar with poly nuts.

alright, thats a bad example. that guy installed a brace on a car with a damaged mount. the brace DID NOT break the mount. its pretty obvious that a bad mount would cause problems. also, as stated before. . . the brace used was not using a larger pad as garfinkles does. the skinnier pad (using those rinkydink 10mm bolts as an anchor) will cause more stress. its like the bed of nails trick. . . lay down on one or two nails and you are for sure gonna be crying for mommie. come back after youre all healed up and lay down on a "bed" of nails (just like they do in the freak shows), and youll survive. . . still painful of course, but you wont shed any blood. when the stress is spread out over a larger area it becomes less of a problematic factor.

how many people that wreck their fds dont total them out? how many people on this forum are worried about TOTAL safety while running 350-500rwhp? how many people think about safety while street racing at 100+mph? how many people are worried about safety when they replace their airbags with gauges and momo steering wheels?

the list could go on. . . seriously, as malicious as it sounds. . . i just dont think it matters what the crash protection is when you have this utter desire to hit insane hp numbers and superduper top speeds. . . we ALL threw safety out the window when the first WOT run was made.

paul

FDNewbie

iTrader: (10)

I totally agree w/ Crispy's post in the thread BigIslandSevens linked to. I think it just make sense to run new or good motor mounts in conjunction with an ETB. FlyRX7 even had a crazy (but prob correct) idea of having one ETBs on each side of the motor, thereby distributing the load correctly... something to think about (see the last post in that thread).

Herblenny, you said "I've searched for a brace and did some research.. And Garfinkle's brace was the best one I've seen.. With large plate to distribute the stress and solid brace." Does this include Chuck's ETB? Because from my limited understanding, Chuck's theory seems a lot better:

"We do not use a solid rod which creates too much stress on both the lower intake manifold and the chassis. The function of an engine brace should be to dampen the rotation of the engine under revving. A solid rod will prevent any movement of the engine and the constant stress will create fatigue on both the lower intake manifold and chassis. Over time, those components will crack. You can view our engine brace damper as a suspension for the engine."

Makes sense to me. Any reason why this is not the way to go? (xstacy7, this isn't aimed against you or Garfinkle...I'm just trying to figure out what's the best design).

rotorbrain

i thought i had replied to that post on dual braces. . . its not so correct at all. when the engine is placed under a load it rotates one way. . . the brace is in that position because it is the compression side. the motor compresses against it. there wouldnt be much of a point in putting a brace on the other side for when it returns because youd essentially have to preload the brace. . . from that point you can deduct that your setup will eventually eat itself. preload one. . . reduce another. . . and so on. if the motor pulls back with one brace. . . itll stop at that bars extension. trying to stop it with another bar will result in a limp bar at one point. . . on accelleration itll pull on one, and on deceleration itll pull on the other. pulling IS NOT what you want. pulling will tear away as we saw in that ugly picture that was posted.

lets go with chucks design. . . what is it made of? is it a tube with nylon or urethane bushings at the end? or is it fluid filled? hopefully, it isnt fluid filled. . . but regardless, they both achieve the same objective. . . "stability with give". davids car IS NOT solid all the way through. i think phil was referring to the "level of build quality" poured into the product. anyways, there are rubber bushings at either end. which would you rather replace. . . a shock absorber or two rubber bushings that you can cut out yourself? you could even replace em with urethane if you so wanted to.

so. . . lets get it straight. . . chuck and david have the same goal. i think the reason (enter personal opinion) davids is more to my needs is 1) hes 15 mins from my house 2) cheaper and 3) easier on the pocket when rebuild time comes around. . . which isnt anytime soon for either units to be honest (considering chuck uses urethane stoppers in his tube)

if some of you dont want the brace. . . thats fine. . . some of us like em. they arent EVIL!!!! they dont depreciate the car anymore than some of the sickly looking engine bays ive seen on here.

paul

Herblenny

iTrader: (13)

FDnewbie..

Are you trying to get me in trouble?? You know I'm good friend with both Garfinkle and Chuck..
Putting me in a bad situation.. Which I don't like.. Well first, that type of dampener/brace is not only made by chuck.. Feed made one, and several knock offs been made and sold on ebay.. So, I hope my comments aren't just toward Chucks engine brace.... I'm going to get you back Newbie!!

I agree with Paul (Rotorbrain).
The reason I like Garfinkle's vs. other type (which there was a post about this a year ago) is that first, the base.. its solid, wide, multiple mounting points, and good quality. Second, the so call solid bar have rubber bushing in each side and its custom length for each car. I don't see how its going to damage the LIM and UIM.. Don't forget that people lift complete long blocks with one of the lift point being the UIM.. Third, the cost is very reasonable, one of the cheapest brace.

Would I buy it again, hell ya.. I'm going to put this on my 2nd FD.. When I put it on my blk car, you could feel the difference.. Shifts much better at hard pull. My MB, I could tell it need this brace.. when I'm pulling hard and shifting, I could already feel the difference.. and yes, the engine mounts are fairly new.. OEM mounts (about 6k on them). I feel its good alternative for those with good stock mounts but want added support when pushing their car..

FDNewbie

iTrader: (10)

Paul, thanks for the explanation. I'm almost 100% sure tho that Mike's (FlyRx7's) post was the last one made in that thread, so I don't see how you replied to it...might have been in another thread, or I musta missed you reply (yea, I skimmed it, sorry lol).

What if the ETB was designed to allow free outward movement, and was long enough not to inhibit the engine's motion outwardly? I'd imagine such a setup would solve those issues, right? Of couse, that's a completely different and redesigned ETB...

I guess maybe I'm misunderstanding the action of a damper vs. a bushing... I understand a damper to work much like the shocks/dampers on hoods and hatches, ie they're preloaded, and allow actual motion inward (toward them) dampening and limiting that motion (since it's preloaded). A bushing, however, I see as just a rubber ball dampening vibration...I don't see it allowing much movement at all. My assumption here is that the damper allows very slight motion, between no motion at all, and too much motion to make it useless. That sounds like a better way to deal w/ the engine's rotation to me, since I don't see how a bushing will give in that such motion. Again, I can see it absorbing the vibration, but I see it stopping that motion completely (hence why I see it as one solid metal bar design). If a bushing gives, I'd think the amount of motion it allows for is so minute that it's basically negligible...because as I understand it, bushings are used to reduce vibration/friction between parts, thus reducing wear. I don't see how they're used to reduce actual motion. Please correct me if I'm mistaken (or clueless lol).

Well lemme make it clear: for the record, I'm not trying to make this a Chuck vs. David thing. I don't really have any biases or alliances to either; I'm just trying to understand which design would be best. Indeed, I can see why you're going w/ David's, esp given cost and rebuildability. Also, the point Phil mentioned is VERY high on my priority list: "the base.. its solid, wide, multiple mounting points." Given that tho, if cost and rebuildability weren't factors, wouldn't a damper with a very large base be the best design? (a bit of both ) That's really what I'm aiming to learn.

Phil, you KNOW it wasn't like that man. I wasn't trying to call you out or put you between a rock and a hard place. I'm just in it for the knowledge man. That's all. Tryin to get my edumacation on on the forum So my apologies for calling you out like that.

Oh, and nice disclaimer

FDNewbie

iTrader: (10)

THIS JUST IN! I just got a call from my body shop (who works on FDs all day long), they have a local FD there right now w/ a torque brace that broke the mount on the UIM! Obviously, they need a new UIM, as I believe that entire peice is cast iron. I dunno who's car it is, but I'll see if I can find out or snap a few pics if I can get down there anytime soon!

saxyman990

It's cast aluminum, and depending on how it cracked, it may just be able to be repaired instead of replaced

-Rob

FDNewbie

iTrader: (10)

Rob, thanks for the head's up. I saw a cpl guys selling UIMs for $75 - $125 a pop in the classifieds section, so he may find it easier just to go that route...

Herblenny

iTrader: (13)

You like that Ramy!! I had to cover my *** somewhat.. LOL

So, was that UIM really broken by the brace?? which brace was it??

FDNewbie

iTrader: (10)

I don't know anything minus that it's broken from a torque brace...apparently it was too much torque, and instead of taking out the fender wall, it took out the UIM mount lol. Go figure. I'm preparing for an exam on Monday, so driving the 35 min or so to the shop and then driving back is kinda too tight for my current schedule... but I'll try and get more info or find out who's car it is.

rotorbrain

lets find out what other factors were in play on that broken lim first.

back to the other posts. . . i wasnt attacking you at all ramy. . . just making points for the general public to see. . . i dont think chucks design is at all a piece of crap. . . i doubt hed have it on his car if it didnt work!!!! i simply dont know how its constructed and if its constructed the way i THINK it is. . . then its no different than davids except for the larger fender mounted pad on davids.

the deal about the bushings. . . if its not transmitting vibration to the chassis. . . then its not transmitting movement. . . that doesnt mean that the engine isnt moving a little bit. . . ive SEEN it move. . . its just not a whole lot. he designed it to have give. thats what the rubber bushings are there for. also, bushings are mounted between metal parts to allow free movement. . . not just there to get rid of vibration. thats what keeps mechanical parts somewhat fresh. . . not allowing them to wear out as soon.

paul

FDNewbie

iTrader: (10)

Cool...thanks for the info Paul. I didn't think you were attacking me, but I didn't want you to think my intentions were misplaced.

rotorbrain

i didnt think that at all. . . i respect your posts greatly. . . never a rancid attack from you.

paul

FDNewbie

iTrader: (10)

Are you mocking me Paul? Cuz that would be the first I've heard of someone respecting my posts Ditto to you man

Herblenny

iTrader: (13)

Paul, I don't respect Ramy at ALL!!! LOL!!
naw.. I think you are asking very valid questions Ramy.. I think Chucks Damper kit is the BEST damper kit around.. But Garfinkle's brace is the BEST non-damper kit around.. SO, those of you thinking about buying some sort of engine brace, Get it from either one of them.. Phew.. I think I covered my *** pretty good!!

FDNewbie

iTrader: (10)

Oooooo....now you're in troooouuublleee...

Flyrx7

iTrader: (1)

Paul,

I'll have to respectfully disagree with you for a couple of reasons.
First off, if doing a dual ETB setup, tangentally to the rotatation as I described, your are basically making the engine a solid mount, having effectively created a triangular engine mounting pattern. The only thing being compliant are your motor mounts, which would only oscilate in a more side to side motion as opposed to contracting and compressing, and that would be minimal.
I also mentioned that the ideal mounting point would be to the frame on the driver's side, not to the fender of the same side. That would aid in two ways; one of which would be there would not be a pulling force on the passenger fender mount ETB because of the drivers side ETB is tensioned already to minimize movement.
Secondly, it's better becasue it would mount to the frame. Heavy metal mounting points are alot better than the sheet metal fender location.

As to your theory about load and unload, if the ETB are tangental to the rotation and stressed (preloaded) when installed then the ETB's would be mostly static.
Both ETB's would work in unison, not "eat itself" as you suggested.
Your example sounded like you are thinking of cables or chains instead of solid tube or bar stock shafts.

Lastly, I don' t want anyone to think I'm bashing anybodies ETB design at all. I have nothing to gain by doing that. My posts in the other thread were theory only, as a dual mount doesn't exist and wouldn't really be practical for a street driven FD anyway, do to all the necessary modifications needed.

Regards,
Frank