Race Gas & Pump Gas: HP Differences
#1
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Race Gas & Pump Gas: HP Differences
Just wondering if any of you have dynoed with pump gas and with race gas with the same mods to see the difference the fuel makes in HP.
#2
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You understand without a tuning change the difference is negligible. Race fuels may make slightly higher HP numbers, but not significantly without retuning the car, its the anti-knock properties of high octane fuel that make the car perform, you retune to increase cylinder pressures <wether it be via more timing or more boost>. Also high octane provides a larger measure of safety when the car is hot to prevent detonation.
#3
With Supras race gas can make a HUGE difference on the dyno as it makes the engine run more quietly thus the knock sensor doesn't retard the ignition as much.
The FD has a shitty knock feedback system (the Power FC has no knock feedback) so the difference it very little. As stated above it will allow for a more boost or a leaner tune due to the anti ping properties.
The FD has a shitty knock feedback system (the Power FC has no knock feedback) so the difference it very little. As stated above it will allow for a more boost or a leaner tune due to the anti ping properties.
#5
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So the main reason I asked was because a performance shop just opened up next to my house here in town. They are selling race gas for like $7 a gallon and was trying to figure out it were actually worth it to go try a tank full....
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if youre going to the track dont fill up w/ a full tank.... that just makes it heavier..... but race gas will help if you up the boost just pray that you dont up the boost too much and somethin doesnt blow....
#7
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Originally posted by apneablue
So the main reason I asked was because a performance shop just opened up next to my house here in town. They are selling race gas for like $7 a gallon and was trying to figure out it were actually worth it to go try a tank full....
So the main reason I asked was because a performance shop just opened up next to my house here in town. They are selling race gas for like $7 a gallon and was trying to figure out it were actually worth it to go try a tank full....
That's not to say that running 5 gallons of race gas at the track every so often is going to foul everything up, but if you do it often enough you'll be in the market for a midpipe or new cat, and a new Oxy sensor for sure.
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#8
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Originally posted by wingsfan
hasten the demise of your O2 sensor....
hasten the demise of your O2 sensor....
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if you really want to do something like that run avgas from your local airport much much much cheaper it is usually 100LL just dont forget to add some marvel mystery oil or two cycle oil because 100LL does not have good lubricating qualitys
#10
Don't just buy 110LL and assume its the same because its not. You have to look at all the data i.e. octane, burning speed, energy value, cooling effect, specific gravity, etc. Believe it or not there is a reason why good race gas is more expensive than av gas. I recomend VP gas myself
#11
I won't let go
WTF? Anti ping properties? Anti knock? The only thing loading up on anything higher than 93 is going to do is make your wallet empty more quickly. If you had a motor that ran with out knock, or very little knocking, and with out tuning/raising boost, bringing up the octane rating isn't going to do squat. In fact, it should make you LOOSE power since it takes MORE compression to ignite it. It will ignite later in the compression stroke, thus the rotor/piston will be closer to TDC, or in extreme cases, already at TDC. If you're not going to be running more than ~13-15psi, 93/94 should be fine. (that's what I'm running...no issues whatsoever). Maybe you can go more, but I personally wouldn't risk it. Take a look see at...http://www.howstuffworks.com/question90.htm
And since I know I'm going to get flack, no, I didn't just read this either. Simple chemestry and physics.
And since I know I'm going to get flack, no, I didn't just read this either. Simple chemestry and physics.
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Originally posted by Railgun69
WTF? Anti ping properties? Anti knock? The only thing loading up on anything higher than 93 is going to do is make your wallet empty more quickly. If you had a motor that ran with out knock, or very little knocking, and with out tuning/raising boost, bringing up the octane rating isn't going to do squat. In fact, it should make you LOOSE power since it takes MORE compression to ignite it. It will ignite later in the compression stroke, thus the rotor/piston will be closer to TDC, or in extreme cases, already at TDC. If you're not going to be running more than ~13-15psi, 93/94 should be fine. (that's what I'm running...no issues whatsoever). Maybe you can go more, but I personally wouldn't risk it. Take a look see at...http://www.howstuffworks.com/question90.htm
And since I know I'm going to get flack, no, I didn't just read this either. Simple chemestry and physics.
WTF? Anti ping properties? Anti knock? The only thing loading up on anything higher than 93 is going to do is make your wallet empty more quickly. If you had a motor that ran with out knock, or very little knocking, and with out tuning/raising boost, bringing up the octane rating isn't going to do squat. In fact, it should make you LOOSE power since it takes MORE compression to ignite it. It will ignite later in the compression stroke, thus the rotor/piston will be closer to TDC, or in extreme cases, already at TDC. If you're not going to be running more than ~13-15psi, 93/94 should be fine. (that's what I'm running...no issues whatsoever). Maybe you can go more, but I personally wouldn't risk it. Take a look see at...http://www.howstuffworks.com/question90.htm
And since I know I'm going to get flack, no, I didn't just read this either. Simple chemestry and physics.
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Originally posted by DaedelGT
I G N O R A N T
Why not use 89 octane in that case? Why do race cars use race gas?
I G N O R A N T
Why not use 89 octane in that case? Why do race cars use race gas?
#15
I won't let go
Originally posted by crazysuprakid
I can't stop laughing!
I can't stop laughing!
DaedelGT
Do you think that race cars use it 'cause they're running high enough compression with timing advanced enough that they might actually need it? And obviously some don't even use it, rather use alcohol, nitro (maybe not so much anymore), etc. I DO use 89, in my daily driver. If you were running boost low enough you could use 89 too. Obviously you need 93 in the FD as the compression due to boost is high enough to warrant it. You have room to play, that's why you can still use 93 when bringing up the boost. That's all I was trying to say.
In general...
Saying that there's an "anti knock" property isn't correct. I'd like to know what this "property" or ingredient is. Let's see how much more power you get running 93 as opposed to 89.
#17
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Yup, The only reason why you would use higher octane is for tuning or forced induction.
Gas isn't going to improve horsepower by itself.
Unless you advance/tune the car for the higher octane gas then it will not take advantage of the raised knock/detonation level.
A N/a doesn't need high octane because it is not as prone to knocking detonating like a forced induction application is.
The Race cars use Race gas/methanol/etc cause it increases those things. Methanol/nitro burns hotter as well(friend put a cap full in his goped and melted the piston to the block).
Those cars are incredible anyways. They aren't meant to last very long so they do crazy stuff like push it to the very limits. So they raise the safety/knock level with the fuel to go even father.
An example was that in Super Street they had a crazy FD. It was doing like 400 HP on 91 but on race gas it was pushing 600(i think) with more boost.
The higher octane allows you to up the boost while retaining the safety margin.
I probably contradicted myself somewhere in there or something but oh well.
Gas isn't going to improve horsepower by itself.
Unless you advance/tune the car for the higher octane gas then it will not take advantage of the raised knock/detonation level.
A N/a doesn't need high octane because it is not as prone to knocking detonating like a forced induction application is.
The Race cars use Race gas/methanol/etc cause it increases those things. Methanol/nitro burns hotter as well(friend put a cap full in his goped and melted the piston to the block).
Those cars are incredible anyways. They aren't meant to last very long so they do crazy stuff like push it to the very limits. So they raise the safety/knock level with the fuel to go even father.
An example was that in Super Street they had a crazy FD. It was doing like 400 HP on 91 but on race gas it was pushing 600(i think) with more boost.
The higher octane allows you to up the boost while retaining the safety margin.
I probably contradicted myself somewhere in there or something but oh well.
#18
2/4 wheel cornering fiend
Originally posted by Jodeny
At low boost levels race gas will make LESS HP due to slower burning in the combustin chamber which is why it is more resistant to detonation.
John
At low boost levels race gas will make LESS HP due to slower burning in the combustin chamber which is why it is more resistant to detonation.
John
It'd be great to see some dyno tests on some of the better unleaded race fuels now available on the market to see if there's a power boost. I'm not advocating running race fuel unless it's truly warranted, but we did some dyno tests with some unleaded race fuels in motorcycles (sportbikes) with no other modifications whatsoever, and several boosted power by 2-3 percent.
Last edited by Kento; 06-05-03 at 08:35 PM.
#19
2/4 wheel cornering fiend
Originally posted by apneablue
So the main reason I asked was because a performance shop just opened up next to my house here in town. They are selling race gas for like $7 a gallon and was trying to figure out it were actually worth it to go try a tank full....
So the main reason I asked was because a performance shop just opened up next to my house here in town. They are selling race gas for like $7 a gallon and was trying to figure out it were actually worth it to go try a tank full....
#20
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Mix your Sunoco with Toulene, or Xylene (10 20 or 30 percent) and you will have race gas, at various octane levels. Either chemical can be purchased at local chemical houses for usually less than $5 per gallon, and a 55 gallon drum for less. these are the octane increasing parts of "race gas". You can even mix in small amounts of mineral spirits for injector cleaning. The only problem when using high octane fuels is what has been stated before that you must tune with more agressive parameters for more power increase. The drawback is that you must run the good fuel in every tank with that state of tune.
#21
2/4 wheel cornering fiend
Originally posted by cdk 4219
Mix your Sunoco with Toulene, or Xylene (10 20 or 30 percent) and you will have race gas, at various octane levels. Either chemical can be purchased at local chemical houses for usually less than $5 per gallon, and a 55 gallon drum for less. these are the octane increasing parts of "race gas". You can even mix in small amounts of mineral spirits for injector cleaning. The only problem when using high octane fuels is what has been stated before that you must tune with more agressive parameters for more power increase. The drawback is that you must run the good fuel in every tank with that state of tune.
Mix your Sunoco with Toulene, or Xylene (10 20 or 30 percent) and you will have race gas, at various octane levels. Either chemical can be purchased at local chemical houses for usually less than $5 per gallon, and a 55 gallon drum for less. these are the octane increasing parts of "race gas". You can even mix in small amounts of mineral spirits for injector cleaning. The only problem when using high octane fuels is what has been stated before that you must tune with more agressive parameters for more power increase. The drawback is that you must run the good fuel in every tank with that state of tune.
The other problem is that tolulene is toxic as hell. Nasty stuff. Continual contact with your skin or breathing fumes will get you sick as a dog.
Last edited by Kento; 06-05-03 at 10:19 PM.
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