RonKMiller

To simplify, I can rebuild ANY airframe or powerplant, and re-certify it to the manufacturer's specifications or beyond along with any modifications. Airplane repairmen - "mechanics"- report to me and I sign off on repairs that are exceptionally technical or any thing out of the unusual. When you crash your plane and tear off both wings and motor, I sign the paper after it is repaired that says you can fly it again, with paying passengers on board.

I also consult with engineers and designers on the PRACTICAL aspects of modifications and structual components that they dream up.

I also fly their ideas to see if they work as they predict. They usually don't.

That's why airplanes look pretty much the same as they did 50 years ago.

Trexthe3rd

[QUOTE]Originally posted by RonKMiller
[B]Please read through my post completely and understand it first before posting a question that is already answered. The modified belly pan is not ramming more air through the radiator, it is ramming air through the vent holes. It's primary function is there to makeup for the loss of airflow created by the installation of the FMIC. If you already moved the radiator to the vertical position then you donot need the modified belly pan. The increase in air flow from the modified belly pan is no where near the amount of air flow needed to cavitate the fans (think about it, a vertically oriented radiator can travel with more than 160mph air flow when a car is traveling at top speed). Again, the air is redirected at the radiator so there is less efficiency to begin with. If you are familiar with vectors you'll realize the resultant airflow (even with enlarged vents) are still much less than direct perpendicular flow.

Where did I say this thing is going to make anybody go faster? Please find it, and I will make a public apology and go hide in shame. The fact is simple, there are bigger air vents directing more air to the radiator, what do you think the result is?? I did quote a price for people who asked for it, they can and will purchase a product that has been tested if they want to.

Trexthe3rd

I beg to differ, ever heard of the hopeless diamond.

Trexthe3rd

I usually hit 120 max on the 1/4. The highest track speed for me was 158, I quess I'm just a *****. Seriously, I wouldn't feel comfy with anything over that without a roll cage.

RonKMiller

Yeah, but you wouldn't want your momma to fly it if the computer went down!

Hey look, like I said, I like prototypes and fun stuff like this, and maybe one day you'll make a buck at it, and good for you.

I don't care how many degrees you have from what institutions, or your level of schooling, what you have presented here is pure conjecture, subjective reasoning and hype.
It's not backed up by any of the science that you seem to revel in.
I just call 'em like I see 'em, and I've seen literally thousands of "improvements" on wing and airflow design that just don't cut it in the real world. Well, ok, vortice generators work, I put them on my planes.

Ya gotta' back it up with some real world evidence, and all I see here is another worthless ricer mod.

Sorry if I hurt your feelings, I really do think it's a great effort, and I applaud anyone who tries to come up with a better mousetrap. BTW, you really should consider vacuum bagging, it's quality is awesome and would be a perfect application for your design if you go into production.

I'm outta here - good luck.

Mr. Stock

I do believe that the temp reduction numbers were given in the very first post.

Trexthe3rd

Sometimes I wonder if people ever read anymore.
What conjecture? I have been running hot since I installed my FMIC and left the radiator in the stock position. After I installed the belly pan my temp now runs 8-12 deg cooler (~190-195, was ~210). I tell you what, I'll take a picture of the danm temp gauge just for you.

How is this not scientific (Hypothesis, experimentation, results)? And what would you call "real world evidence"?

How is this a rice mod?? Is anyone else confused as I am?

skunks

This mod/enhancement does pretty much the same as airshields (temp drop wise I mean). You should make integrated airsheilds in to the final design and perhaps the temp might go down even more. It's really not that hard, I put airsheilds in my car in about 30 mins with out my car in the air (which was pretty good i think since my car is dropped pretty low, with the car in the air, i probally could have done it in about 10 mins). I made them out of scratch (just a couple of sheets of cheap *** sheet metal). Personnly I have seen a 20 degree F. drop in temp in my car so that with my stock radiator, I can maintain about 180 degrees all the time. The temp of course drops if I cruise faster then 60mph, usually it drops another 5 degrees or so.

In the finnal production version, how many layers of fiberglass will be used?

Trexthe3rd

It's going to be two layers of fg.
I'm not certain of the air shield you are referring to. I have heard of people taping up gaps around the radiator to force more air through the rad instead of around, is this what you are referring to?

skunks

Yep, although im using metal plates.

artowar2

Sounds like a fun job. I hope they ask you to test out some stuff that makes the jets *quieter* as they go in and out of my local airport

Here's a question for you-- occasionally while working on the car, I've been known to, uh, break certain fasteners. Let's assume I broke one of the bolts used in the suspension. Now, I figure that as long as I am replacing the part, I'd like to use something that is stronger and at least as corrosion resistant as the stock part. Lots of places sell "aerospace" or "mil-spec" fasteners, but can you suggest any suppliers that are reliable and would stock pieces that we may typically use on these cars? Is there any reading material that you'd recommend on the subject of fasteners, automotive plumbing, etc., that has good advice and is accessible to the layman? People often refer to one of the Carroll Smith books, but are there other useful materials on the subject? Thanks.

Donovan

OK here's the problem I see in the pan. It looks from the pics that there is a gap between the front of the car and the pan. This means that the huge amount of air going through the nose of the car is going to flow out of that gap and go un used. The stock pan is made to force air comming in from the nose through the rad.The vents in the stocker are there for water to escape out of the pan, Thats why they are backwards facing.

SPOautos

Before you finalize it I have a suggestion!!!!! Its something I was thinking of doing to my stock belly pan but couldnt figure out a way of doing it that didnt look ghetto.....with the stock pan

With you building a pan from scratch it would be possible to build brake ducts into it!!!

Now that would REALLY serve a purpose and if you can build some good functioning ducts for the brakes into I'll prob buy one.

I was going to use the "excess" air that is routed out the back of the duct and basically just reroute it to the brakes, it lines up almost perfect to do this when its mounted to the car.

Just a suggestion

STEPHEN

rx713bt

iTrader: (4)

A machinary's handbook should have the answers you need on fasteners.

DamonB

I got the same (actually better) reduction in coolant temps by blocking the gaps between the frame rails and the radiator using the stock belly pan.

I won't poo-poo the design at this point but I hope you can buy them by the dozen because those things will be cracked constantly on the street, especially with all these guys on coilovers and lowered cars.

DamonB

The book you are looking for is "Prepare to Win"; it has some metallurgy and failure analysis in it. I believe you can even get it from amazon.com. He also has a title specifically on nuts, bolts, fasteners and plumbing; just search with him as author. I think it's just Carroll Smith's Nuts, Bolts and Plumbing Handbook.

I would buy every book that man has written, I know I have They are written just for you, not over your head at all.

martini

RonK: I'm considering buying this because my bellypan is ripped to ****.

Trex: I'm interested in the CF layered version.

DamonB

And this one will last better???? Get a stocker. Carbon fiber, fiberglass, kevlar, I don't care. Not the right material to use.

RonKMiller

www.aircraftspruce.com. Free catalogues and basic advice on fasteners. AN (aircraft grade) is over kill unless you are building a dragster or LeMans racer.
I like stainless stuff that you can buy at any specialty nut and bolt shop and often at your local hardware store.

Trexthe3rd

Let's see if I can clear this up once and for all. The front edge of the upper vent plate is at the same location as the stock, the reason why it looks to be further back is because the lower lip has been extented by 2". There is more air being forced through the modified belly pan than the stock.
Last but not least, the vents in the lower panel is not there for water to escape out of. Those are negative pressure vents that exists elsewhere (the metal pan futher back) that creates a low pressure pocket due to the Bernoulli effect to draw out excess air build up and create down force.

Trexthe3rd

An interesting suggestion, I have looked at the overall location of the belly pan with respect to the brakes. Here are the problems (technical difficulties):
1. If ducting is created to divert flow from the pan it will dramatically decrease the airflow to the radiator.
2. If the ducting can be created without reducing the airflow, there is more structural support mounting point for the duct (due to the relative proximity to the suspension components)
At this moment I can not see a solution to these two problems, if you can, please let me know. It would be an added benifit, but at this point I find engine temperature to be a much more critical issue than break temp.

Trexthe3rd

Ummmm, yes and no. By stuffing or taping the gaps surrounding the radiator will force more air through the radiator no doubt. But I prefer not to go that far home made. The temperature changes are recorded with 90+ ambient conditions and wot runs (it was done in August). Not sure about you, how many people with FDs are running below 190 with a fmic and stock radiator location? With current ambient temp of 58deg F, my temp gauge is reading 175 under hard runs. If you can get this type of results, hey more power to you, stuff and tape away. There certainly would be a lot less complaints about over heating during the summer.

Quote:

I won't poo-poo the design at this point but I hope you can buy them by the dozen because those things will be cracked constantly on the street, especially with all these guys on coilovers and lowered cars.

Again with the cracking issue. I have a 1.5" drop on Tein HAs and had it on for almost three months now (driven on everything from highway to gravel roads). There are some minor scratches on the bottom of the pan but no structural damage at all. I cannot speak for every possible situations that can happen out there, so I can only provide my own experiences. The epoxy resin we used is surprisingly strong and flexible to a certain degree, not as flexible as the stock plastic but is holding up quite well up till now.

DamonB

Nope, no stuffing or taping. Built metal baffles that actually seal from the sides of the hole in the nose to the radiator sides, mush more efficient than "stuffing or taping" as the air never has a chance to go anywhere but through the radiator. In effect there is now a duct leading from the nose inlet all the way to the radiator core.


But I prefer not to go that far home made.


Are you implying that the thing you built looks like a quality finished product??? It is functional, sure. It looks like someone overlayed a stocker with tin foil and some cardboard patterns which they then laminated and butchered. Maybe I was looking at the wrong pics?


Not sure about you, how many people with FDs are running below 190 with a fmic and stock radiator location? With current ambient temp of 58deg F, my temp gauge is reading 175 under hard runs. If you can get this type of results, hey more power to you, stuff and tape away.


I don't have a fmic, but do have a stock radiator and race constantly here in Texas with 100+ degree track temps along with daily driving over 20K miles a year. 58 deg ambient is chilly, hell no you won't have cooling issues. Especially during hard runs. Don't gloat until you have tested when it's hot outside. Most people would consider hot at least 80 degrees, you know, when you have to wear shorts instead of sweaters.


Again with the cracking issue. I have a 1.5" drop on Tein HAs and had it on for almost three months now (driven on everything from highway to gravel roads).


Picture this. Lots of guys have stock belly pans beat to hell. How did they get that way? Probably from running into things on occasion, not on purpose, but it happens. A fiberglass replica is going to be the savior in this case? I would love to see that thing stand up to the abuse a stocker can handle, but fact is it cannot. I think your pan would be entirely useful on a tracked car, but for daily use on roads? Not going to make it.

Trexthe3rd

DamonB
When you read my post please read the the entire content before responding.
As I have indicated in the previous post, the tests began back in August. Temps in GA range 10 the high 90's to over 100 (on one of the days tested it was over 104). The relative humidity is typically over 70%. The running temp under these conditions are from 180-190deg F.
As I had suspected you do not have a FMIC, which means there are no obstructions to the horizontal air flow path, so in that case it is a different scenario. In either case, you are certainly welcome to give out your design specs and instructions on making the baffle work.
The prototype is not pretty, and again as I had indicated in earlier posts, the finished product would have a better finish ready for paint.

The final analysis:
You must have been on a debate team before. You have a knack in selectively ignoring the entire argument, but concentrate on attacking the part you see fit.
I have already conceided to the fact the the stock meterial is much more flexable than the material we are using, and at no time did I claim our product can withstand more abuse than the stock (the savior?). I am simply stating my experiences in the testing period, period! Take it for what you will, the horse has been dead for days.
As someone have so politely pointed out in one of the earlier posts, by obstructing the airflow path and forcing more air through the radiator will achieve better cooling but will change the original aerodynamics of the car. I will stop here because it's just going to turn into a useless debate.

RonKMiller

Hey boys and girls! This is rich.........You called ME an idiot in a previous post which I decided to ignore since personal attacks are childish and frowned upon by everyone on this forum including the Mods.

Yet a guy who went to MIT AND Princeton, (BTW, Princeton is the number one school in the country for academics, hands down) has an engineering degree and now works for Honeywell (probably as a janitor) can't spell three COMMON words in ONE sentence? I doubt if you even finished high school, let alone scored high enough on the SAT's to get into a community college:

"conceided" - you meant conceded.
"meterial"- you meant material.
"flexable" - you meant flexible.

Oh yeah, it must have been a typo on your part.

BTW, I never personally attack anyone, I just let you hang yourself, Mr. Rocket Scientist.

Did I say that I igonored your previous personal attack? UNITL NOW:

I contend, sir, that YOU indeed are the idiot, a liar, and lousy "engineer" to boot. Like I said, your "product" (the profit motive creeps back in again) is just another worthless ricer mod that will fall off in a couple of hundred miles.