No worres as long as you remove the RX part off of the badging on your car.

 

I think this weekend I'm going to drop my android guts into my apple iphone because I love how iphones look and feel but they are really outdated hardware wise.

 

Seems kinda silly to be upset at what other people do to their cars doesn't it?

 

Yeah it's a little immature. I feel kind of like a tree hugger.
As long as there are a few good ones on the market for me while I'm alive that's all that matters. But I'd seriously like it if swaps weren't so prominent. Sticking to the story.

 

Then why even have the conversation?
Just bitch about. Don't pose it as a question.


That said, here's what I want to know... What are there more of; FDs running with a rotary in some form of daily drivable/track ready or FDs in some state of project/not running?

I know what I think... but interested as to what others say.

 

Once my rotary goes, I'm going LS swap.

 

Again I'll base my decision on what's for sale and easily more running despite the fact that projects are much easier to give up on.

However if I sell a couple hundred more rollers I'm certainly adding to the project side of the scale LOL

 

Why "move on" to bigger, heavier, slower cars?

Why I didn't "just get a 'vette...": Because an LS FD is 250 to 450 lb. lighter-weight than a C5 or C6. Because an FD with an LS with minor mods outperforms ZR1s for a small fraction of the price. Also, C5 rear looks misshapen and bloated, interior looks pretty uninspired/uninspiring. C6 exterior looks fine, interior still bleh...

Anyway, after ~30k street miles and 15 or so track days, compression test revealed that one of my stock LS2 pistons had developed a couple of cracks in the ring lands. Doh, so much for being perfectly reliable :O

So now a 6.8 liter with forged crank and Wiseco pistons is installed, along with a slightly bigger cam. Should make ~600hp, probably good for 190mph in the standing mile.

 

Exactly now turbo that LS2 for those 30k miles and 15 track days and you would have already totally blown the motor. I think the rear of a C5 looks great...

I'm complaining and bitching about it because I don't believe the V8 swap to be a good fix or a good match. Not only does it bastardize the car but it makes it handle worse, isnt smooth and loses its driving feel. I cant control what everyone does, but it seems like the easy way out and is insulting to mazda and the RX-7. The V8 fix does not make it a perfect car nor is it a perfect fix. Perhaps if it was a 1JZ or more matched swap I could understand (lightweight, highreving, turbo, of the same era). At some point the collectibility of the car in tact will convince people to keep them with a rotary drivetrain. Only wealthy people will be able to lose the value by gutting the car and tossing in a v8 from a camaro, and those people will chose to drive porsches and ferrari and have never heard of a RX-7.

Still want to know how many V8s and other swaps there are out there...that's the point of the thread as well as poking fun along the way at folks that have a "different" approach to cars.

 

You are a wild man and I LOVE IT!

Can't wait to see the standing mile. Get video

A moderately modded C6 Z is a sub 2 minute car and a wildly modded Z is a low 1.50s car. That's a lot of performance that I don't think an FD can hang with without investing a fortune.

The viper is on a whole different level blah blah

I'm just saying if I was into going big power and FAST LAPS it wouldn't be in an FD and if an FD came with a v8 it would likely be 200 pounds heavier to support the torque and power. The chassis, susp, brakes, wheels/tires are not designed for big power and big torque. Hell the chassis needs tons of work to simply run a low 2 minute lap at VIR which is something a bone stock C6 Z will do on hoos.

 

My first experience with the FD was in 1995 and I was hooked on the looks inside and out. Then I got behind the wheel and was hooked on the handling and boost. Nothing else on the road compares to the feel of driving a stock(ish) FD for me.

Back to the original question, maybe have each of the regional clubs take a poll?

 

Yeah. Ok. We get it. You don't believe in V8 swaps. ISIS doesn't believe in education. Beliefs are like ********. But the truth prevails.

If you really wanna figure out some numbers...

1) Start an excel sheet.
2) Do a search in the 3rd Gen FS area for "V8" or "V8 Swap".
3) Cross reference that with the V8 sub.
4) Mosey on over to norotors.com and start a tally.
5) Then call Samburg/Hinson/Grannies/Tech2 and ask how many swap kits they've sold.
6) Report back.

I bet swaps in general (V8 or otherwise) and under 100. So out of 13,879 (93-95 production run), that's less than 1% - double my guess and you're still under 1.5%. NOW, are there more RX-7s swapped or in roller / non running status?

...or as I mentioned earlier, do nothing about it and just continue to bitch.

 

I can't believe I actually did this.

I knocked out 1 & 2 for you. I went through all 10 pages of 3rd Gen FS (back to 2012) and noted ever FS post with a swap. Now, this is only with the details in the title, so I could have missed some - and I didn't account for any that were resold. Let's assume those balance each other out.

1JZ Swaps - 2
2JZ Swaps - 5
RB25DET Swaps - 1
V8 Swaps - 49
TOTAL - 57

Now, again, this is only cars posted for sale from 2012 to now. However, I bet the number of total swaps is still below 200, which means total number of FDs swapped is under 2%.

I also did the same search for "roller" - 68. NOT including multiples from Fritz and allrotor. So that number is probably closer to 100.

Now, would we rather see FDs on the road, being cared for, in running condition with swaps? Or rusting away as "rollers"?

 

Plenty of turbo LS's out there with oodles of miles. My engine was still running great when I had the compression checked. Turns out the non-professional rebuild had other issues as well... In addition, I had overheated it a few times (fan relay popped out unbeknownst to me) and continuously revved it to 7000rpm at the track.

Anyway, it doesn't take much boost to make amazing power in a turbo'd LS. But for my "modest" goals I don't see any need to bother with boost...

Handling is barely altered with the additional 100 lb and can of course be retuned. Cammed V8s might have lumpy idles, but a 90 degree V8 is inherently well-balanced and pretty gott-dam smooove at rpm. Driving feel can be a problem *if* the steering rack is lowered and the tie rod angle isn't addressed (which is easy enough to do) and/or if a proper power steering solution isn't implemented.

Failure rates of the factory setup were quite insulting to many owners, and far and away the #1 reason for swaps.

Totally agree.

I would be surprised if a cast-iron 1JZ was lighter than an LS, and of course it's much longer so its c.g. is further forward. What did it rev to, 7000rpm, 7500? Not any higher than an LS7 or forged-bottom-end LS build can rev to.

I think a 9000rpm F20C or 8200rpm F22C (na or turbo) would be a swap more in keeping with the original FD ethos than any cast-iron inline-6 swap...

Anyway, I love rotaries too. But I wouldn't have flown from Providence to Corpus Christi to pick up any rotary RX-7 to drive back and immediately do a track day. Or drive from Prov to Beeville TX to run the Texas Mile and back. They're just to intolerant when issues crop up and aren't as universally well-supported as the LS powerplant. My decision to get an LS FD was purely pragmatic.

 

Oddly enough, I've never video'd track events. Maybe I should get one of them GoPros I hear tell of...

Yup, no doubt. I'm very slow compared to my time trial competition in C5 Z06s. But then again those are dedicated track cars on Hoosiers vs. me on Nittos... Next year I'll run Hoos but still expect to be slow compared to the real track cars. Agree that there is something to be said for starting with a car that was engineered and developed by capable engineers for a given powerplant.

But if I really wanted to go fast at the track I'd get a Formula car!

 

Yes, yes and yes!

I don't know why people even care to argue the v8 vs rotary thing if power/performance and reliability are the end goal. The LS engine crushes most any NA engine and who needs a turbo when it's already making 400.

The V8 is ABSOLUTELY the answer for the pragmatic FD owner

 

Exactly where does it end.

However it seems to me you are into big power so it would only make sense or be pragmatic to buy a car that supports big power.

YES you need a go pro!

 

It is amazing that after 10 years of swapped rx7's being around, there is still such a big argument...

I have owned my RX7 since 99 and it has been swapped since 2006, I am now on an LS3 cause my LS1 developed low compression on #7 and I wanted a little more power. (ended up with a lot more power)

So, to answer the original question, my guess is the above numbers are low. I would say around 100 running swaps with probably 50-100 in progress. Just laws of averages here, 10 years of swapped cars, there are at least 10 a year being added to our community, maybe more. I know of at least 8 swaps personally that are NOT on any forum and no one knows about.

With all this being said, I do have a desire to own a almost bone stock 95 some day. But for now, I absolute love the V8 torque and power.

 

Matt thanks a lot for the time spent researching. How many of the 13.5k FDs do you think are still on the road?

If half are alive and there are more swaps than we know of...

 

There is a good thread that has FDs registered state-to-state. Here's the latest from that:

2005, October: 9796
2007, January: 9340
2011, mid?: 8070
2014, mid: 6095

So good point. Of the 13.5K FDs, many have been lost to accidents, fires, etc. Currently, 6095 are *registered*. We don't know why the other 7400 aren't registered, but we can assume a fair number are gone-gone and the rest in some sort of repair.

If we go with the number "200" as far as swaps go, and assume those are registered. That means 3.5% of registered FDs are swapped, still nothing to worry *too* much about. Especially when you consider...

7400 being "lost"! What's a fair number of those to be considered totaled? 30%? 50%? That still leaves 3700-5000 unaccounted for. Is it possible that many FDs exist in garages, unregistered as "projects" and/or rollers?

I'm trying to wrap my head around it... but someone smarter then me, please explain what else could account for that?

 

Maybe they will eventually all show up....

http://www.businessinsider.com/18-million-cars-in-french-barn-2014-12

 

One thing I always get a kick out of is when people say someone 'ruins' a FD with a swap or that a FD with a swap is a 'waste.' What exactly do you think these guys are doing to a FD during a swap that ruins them for future rotary use?

Off the top of my head, only the following 3 things are done on a regular swap:
Battery relocation / cut button from the passenger bin
Wiring taps or worst case - mods.
Removing the rear radiator/condenser supports

A lot of rotary guys like doing the battery relocation, getting a harness off of a wrecked rx7 is easy if you're scared of verifying a little wiring, and ray sells new radiator/condenser supports that can be spot welded on in minutes. So what's the worry? What's actually getting ruined?

A lot of guys doing these swaps including me improve the chassis way beyond what I see on average around here simply because what I see for the most part from rotary enthusiast is sinking money into engine life support.
For example, If I were to sell my car as a roller, you'd get a chassis that had ALL the suspension bushings replaced, all of the wheel bearings replaced, brand new pillow ball bushings, resprayed underbody and sealed wheel wells, koni struts with GC coilover tops, new windshield, new gentex active rearview mirror, ALL NEW external moldings as well as replaced interior moldings for anything that needed it, 99 OEM bumper, brand new rear bumper, all new exterior lights including HID headlights (if I were to sell them with the roller), tinted windows, lizard skin sound control and ceramic heat blocker sprayed interior, rebuilt heater box including all foam seals, tan to black interior conversion with a finish that beats 90% of the FDs out there, a 10k show quality black paint job, aluminum cobra 3.55 GR rearend, sumped fuel tank, etc etc etc. Do you really think if my car went up as a roller you'd get guys here turning up their nose at my for sale ad saying since it had a LS engine in it, it was ruined for future use?

I mean, rotary guys are above average mechanics / enthusiast right? Does a little rotary engine swap accompanied with a little wiring and possibly a little spot welding really scare you away to the point you say the car is ruined? I mean if hicks from Mississippi can do it I'd think you can...

http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=70.0

I'd also challenge anyone here to go through my build thread and let me know which part was the 'easy' or 'cheap' way out.

Make no mistake. I'm a big rotary fan and some of my favorite builds are rotary based. I would agree completely with Fritz and the others here that the rotary feel can't be replicated with the LS platform. It's just sort of a pet peeve to see uninformed opinions being repeated over and over.

Lane

 

Not picking on you directly at all, but this is my issue with most swaps. Many swap owners will nutswing the LS as if it is the be-all and end-all of reliability. I can look on my Facebook newsfeed on any given day and see my (stock to modified) LS friends having a plethora of issues in comparison to my rotary friends. I am in no way knocking the LS, but rather highlighting the irony in the swap with only the intention of reliability. For me, if I wanted the huge gains of an LS, I would not start with an RX7. I would most definitely buy the Corvette since the whole package is already complete. You WILL spend as much on Clean FD+Swap as you will spend on a Corvette. A budget swapped FD is a ruined car.

 

This is one weird thread.

Yea a swapped FD isn't a perfect fix but it doesn't have be.

I definitely understand the appeal of the v8 and IMO, people should do the swap not to fix perceived issues with the rotary but to enjoy the car a different way. Besides the obvious on paper reasons, even if the v8 only had 200hp, I could understand why people would do the swap. A v8 FD makes an amazing GT car. I was shocked at how different my swapped FD felt and how much I enjoyed it albeit in a different way. I bought my 2nd FD and converted it as a beater but it's worth being treasured on it's own merits. Screw fixing the rotary "problems". Although, I do love my rotary FD more.

As far as insulting to Mazda...I highly doubt that. These swaps just go to show how great the FD chassis is. I don't think Mazda would feel insulted if people retrofitted their FDs to run fully electric.

I don't get this.

 

Admittedly I used your use of 'waste' to spark my little rant, but it wasn't actually directed at you and I'm sorry I didn't make that clearer. I've read many of your post over the years and can appreciate your position. My comments were more directed at the new and uninformed that circulate misinformation.
Like I said, I can appreciate your position in regards to breaking up a numbers matching car, but I'll just have to agree to disagree with you as I will never be a car collector and the joy I find in cars and what makes them special to me is deeply rooted in daily driving them. Something that doesn't require matching numbers. I find no joy in owning garage art in hopes of auctioning it off as a matching numbers antique 40 years down to road and I'd like to think there are more rx7 enthusiast like me than the latter. Hence my argument.

I stand by my points and just in case anyone is curious, I started out with a bottom-of-the-barrel roller that already had a blank where the rotary engine used to be. I consider my swap a rescue / restoration.

Lane