non sequential turbo questions
Hi....
Joined: Mar 2004
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From: bay area
I converted to poor mans because I was pissed with the failure of trying to solve my secondary boost problem. I removed my y-pipe also, and when I put it back on, the charge control valve was faulty -_-. Unless you're upgrading to single turbo or want to SEE what its like if you go single, then stay non-seq. You eliminate that lag that single turbo gives off and when you're on the street.... as I'm assuming majority of FD's usually see, it's great. you THINK you're getting more power because you don't feel the transition anymore... but you're really just making the same... you're just feeling all the power after 3900-4200.
Jeremy
Jeremy
Banned. I got OWNED!!!
Joined: Jan 2005
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From: MN
Heres I guess a good way of knowing whether to go NON SEQUENTIAL over SEQUENTIAL. If you have every driven a street bike such as a gsxr 1000 or fzr 1000 and like that ripp you feel when you twist the throttle and it just pulls you out in one long shot, then go NON. Its sort of like saying when the FD is set up NS you feel almost like your driving a street bike. Thats just my view on it. Ive had two m3's, one m5, and plenty of race bikes. I personally like the NS just because of the way it feels. Try both and see what feels better for you and your driving environment. Peace out.
Cheese
Joined: Aug 2004
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From: Lynnwood, WA
Heres a modified cliche for you: "Arguing over whether Non-Seq is better than Seq or vice-versa is like the Special Olympics; even if you win you're still retarded."
Instead of saying one is better than the other, state the characteristics of each, and leave it at that. Each person has their own preference and driving style, so neither is the "best".
Instead of saying one is better than the other, state the characteristics of each, and leave it at that. Each person has their own preference and driving style, so neither is the "best".
Full Member
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 116
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From: San Antonio, TX
Hey guys, don't joke me too hard, this is only my second post. I have a '93 and only a few things done to it. After reading all of your posts, I am pretty cerytain that I want to go nonsequential. My main question is, how did you guys figure out the poor man's nonsequential method. I went to the post on this forum but a few of the pictures will not pull up. I realy want to do this so can you guys help a brother out? I also have a Greddy profec B spec II still in the box. Should I go ahead and install it now or wait until I make it nonsequential?
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From: San Lorenzo, California
Originally Posted by quid
I also have a Greddy profec B spec II still in the box. Should I go ahead and install it now or wait until I make it nonsequential?
Originally Posted by rynberg
THEY ARE BOTH EXACTLY THE SAME AFTER 4500 RPM. I think it's very poor logic to make up your mind on something when you haven't even driven it, especially when you still don't understand how it works.
After 4500 rpm, both turbos are fully online in either setup, there is zero difference in power output or character. On true full non-sequential cars, you will pick up a FEW ponies at the high end due to removing airflow restrictions. With seq, you make full boost by 2800 rpm or and essentially hold that until just before 4500 rpm, when there's typically a slight dip in the torque curve and then a small rise before slowly tapering off. With seq, you will make more power from 0 to at least 3500 rpm (usually closer to 4k rpm). With non-seq, you will make more power from 3800-4000 rpm to 4500 rpm. After 4500 rpm, both setups will make exactly the same power (with the few hp exception noted above).
Now you tell me which setup makes more sense for street driving? Like I said earlier and have said many times. In hard driving except for auto-x, the car is essentially running non-seq, no matter whether the car is seq or non-seq. So, I see ZERO reason to convert to non-sequential other than boost reliablity concerns.
After 4500 rpm, both turbos are fully online in either setup, there is zero difference in power output or character. On true full non-sequential cars, you will pick up a FEW ponies at the high end due to removing airflow restrictions. With seq, you make full boost by 2800 rpm or and essentially hold that until just before 4500 rpm, when there's typically a slight dip in the torque curve and then a small rise before slowly tapering off. With seq, you will make more power from 0 to at least 3500 rpm (usually closer to 4k rpm). With non-seq, you will make more power from 3800-4000 rpm to 4500 rpm. After 4500 rpm, both setups will make exactly the same power (with the few hp exception noted above).
Now you tell me which setup makes more sense for street driving? Like I said earlier and have said many times. In hard driving except for auto-x, the car is essentially running non-seq, no matter whether the car is seq or non-seq. So, I see ZERO reason to convert to non-sequential other than boost reliablity concerns.
What would you recommend for autox use ? I like to stay in the 4500-6000 RPM range, but I have definitely felt the "no love" driving like this in autox.
Neil
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From: San Lorenzo, California
Originally Posted by M104-AMG
What would you recommend for autox use ? I like to stay in the 4500-6000 RPM range, but I have definitely felt the "no love" driving like this in autox.
Neil
Neil
Is it normal when just feathering the throttle at 4800 RPM in 2nd gear (in a hair-pin turn), to not get any boost for about 2-seconds after you nail the throttle (WOT) ) ?
That's what I'm experiencing . . .
Also happens under the same conditions on the highway (also when light on the throttle at 6000 RPM).
:-( neil
That's what I'm experiencing . . .
Also happens under the same conditions on the highway (also when light on the throttle at 6000 RPM).
:-( neil
Full Member
Joined: Jun 2005
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From: San Antonio, TX
rynberg, thanks brother. I will go ahead and install it this weekend, probably. I was afraid that the profec might learn the current boost map and then it might be confused when I change the turbos over to nonsequential. Speaking of which, do you know where I can find a good thread, post, or page on the conversion? I saw there was one on this forum but the pictures did not come through. So, it is a little hard to follow. I want to do the poor man's conversion. Any advice?
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Joined: Dec 2001
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From: San Lorenzo, California
Originally Posted by M104-AMG
Is it normal when just feathering the throttle at 4800 RPM in 2nd gear (in a hair-pin turn), to not get any boost for about 2-seconds after you nail the throttle (WOT) ) ?
That's what I'm experiencing . . .
Also happens under the same conditions on the highway (also when light on the throttle at 6000 RPM).
:-( neil
That's what I'm experiencing . . .
Also happens under the same conditions on the highway (also when light on the throttle at 6000 RPM).
:-( neil
Originally Posted by quid
rynberg, thanks brother. I will go ahead and install it this weekend, probably. I was afraid that the profec might learn the current boost map and then it might be confused when I change the turbos over to nonsequential. Speaking of which, do you know where I can find a good thread, post, or page on the conversion? I saw there was one on this forum but the pictures did not come through. So, it is a little hard to follow. I want to do the poor man's conversion. Any advice?
Since my advice is to stay sequential, I'm not a good source as to how to do the poor man's non-seq, sorry.
Originally Posted by rynberg
Not normal, you have a problem with your control system....if you jump off the throttle and then get back on it, do you get boost? If so, vacuum chamber leak....
:-) neil
Last edited by M104-AMG; Jul 29, 2005 at 10:58 PM.
Rotary Enthusiast
Joined: Feb 2005
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From: Charlotte, NC
Originally Posted by rynberg
Not normal, you have a problem with your control system....if you jump off the throttle and then get back on it, do you get boost? If so, vacuum chamber leak....
Originally Posted by M104-AMG
Yes, boost returns, but after a 2-second delay. I should check the black vacuum chambers, correct ?
:-) neil
:-) neil
Unless, it is as Rynberg described with the throttle (i.e. instant boost response after getting off the throttle and back on). If boost builds slowly, then that is normal. Just let the idle drop below 3k to unlock the turbos
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From: San Lorenzo, California
Originally Posted by quicksilver_rx7
It actually is normal if you are above 4,500 RPM because both turbos are online.
Unless, it is as Rynberg described with the throttle (i.e. instant boost response after getting off the throttle and back on). If boost builds slowly, then that is normal. Just let the idle drop below 3k to unlock the turbos
Unless, it is as Rynberg described with the throttle (i.e. instant boost response after getting off the throttle and back on). If boost builds slowly, then that is normal. Just let the idle drop below 3k to unlock the turbos
I'm sure he's having a control system problem.
Today I boost 12-8-10, if I start at about 3000 RPM, in all gears.
Here's how I normally drive autox:
Hit first and second hard at 12-8-10.
Back off the throttle while in second, and modulate around 6000 RPM (not 4800 RPM like I first posted) through the corners; then WOT out. Here is where I have poor boost, more like 5-6 lbs then 2-3 seconds later, I'm up to 10lbs, but too late for that section, so back to modulating the throttle around 6000 RPM.
I just replaced BOTH the charge control solenoid and the turbo control solenoid. Both solenoids were tested with 12VDC and a pressure test to 15-lbs so there is no sticktion/slow response in them.
I also just tested both vacuum chambers, and each holds 15-lbs of pressure and vaccuum.
New Viton hoses done in January 2005.
Maybe this is just normal for a stock non-sequential when feathering at 6000 RPMs ?
neil
PS: I have a M2 Stage III ECU, DP, Cat-back (stock cats and air intake box)
Here's how I normally drive autox:
Hit first and second hard at 12-8-10.
Back off the throttle while in second, and modulate around 6000 RPM (not 4800 RPM like I first posted) through the corners; then WOT out. Here is where I have poor boost, more like 5-6 lbs then 2-3 seconds later, I'm up to 10lbs, but too late for that section, so back to modulating the throttle around 6000 RPM.
I just replaced BOTH the charge control solenoid and the turbo control solenoid. Both solenoids were tested with 12VDC and a pressure test to 15-lbs so there is no sticktion/slow response in them.
I also just tested both vacuum chambers, and each holds 15-lbs of pressure and vaccuum.
New Viton hoses done in January 2005.
Maybe this is just normal for a stock non-sequential when feathering at 6000 RPMs ?
neilPS: I have a M2 Stage III ECU, DP, Cat-back (stock cats and air intake box)
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From: Charlotte, NC
Originally Posted by M104-AMG
Maybe this is just normal for a stock non-sequential when feathering at 6000 RPMs ?
neil
neil
Originally Posted by quicksilver_rx7
I'm confused as well. I thought that you were running sequential?
Brain fart!
neil
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From: Charlotte, NC
Originally Posted by M104-AMG
Here's how I normally drive autox:
Hit first and second hard at 12-8-10.
Back off the throttle while in second, and modulate around 6000 RPM (not 4800 RPM like I first posted) through the corners; then WOT out. Here is where I have poor boost, more like 5-6 lbs then 2-3 seconds later, I'm up to 10lbs, but too late for that section, so back to modulating the throttle around 6000 RPM.
Hit first and second hard at 12-8-10.
Back off the throttle while in second, and modulate around 6000 RPM (not 4800 RPM like I first posted) through the corners; then WOT out. Here is where I have poor boost, more like 5-6 lbs then 2-3 seconds later, I'm up to 10lbs, but too late for that section, so back to modulating the throttle around 6000 RPM.
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