non-sequential and lag
08-07-03, 11:21 PM
#26
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"Its either a dog or a missile, there's no middle ground..." Widebody
Man I love the missle part about it! hehe
Bryan
www.bnrsupercars.com
Man I love the missle part about it! hehe
Bryan
www.bnrsupercars.com
08-07-03, 11:31 PM
#27
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Feared7 - Maybe you can explain it better. These replies are not consistant and are confusing. Full boost to me is the max' boost you can do, not when the turbos "begin" to boost.
On sequential you can have full boost by 4500rpm, but that's only "1" turbo. So if on parallel you have full boost by 4500rpm's on "both" turbos, isn't that more power?
On sequential you can have full boost by 4500rpm, but that's only "1" turbo. So if on parallel you have full boost by 4500rpm's on "both" turbos, isn't that more power?
08-07-03, 11:33 PM
#28
Originally posted by 911GT2
I have never been beaten by a Neon. I have also not been beaten by my brothers 2003 WRX. Nor have I have I been beaten by my friends modded 91 DSM (15 psi). Both of those cars have a little something called AWD, which happens to give them an advantage out of the hole. (Ok, so I lost off the line, but caught up really quickly) Keep in mind my car runs stock boost levels, and has very few power mods.
I don't consider 4k rpms "top end." That is actually dead in the middle of the rev range. And thats when I get FULL boost. it builds from about 3500rpms or so. And it'll spool much quicker with the rest of the exhaust.
I have never been beaten by a Neon. I have also not been beaten by my brothers 2003 WRX. Nor have I have I been beaten by my friends modded 91 DSM (15 psi). Both of those cars have a little something called AWD, which happens to give them an advantage out of the hole. (Ok, so I lost off the line, but caught up really quickly) Keep in mind my car runs stock boost levels, and has very few power mods.
I don't consider 4k rpms "top end." That is actually dead in the middle of the rev range. And thats when I get FULL boost. it builds from about 3500rpms or so. And it'll spool much quicker with the rest of the exhaust.
Originally posted by 911GT2
I understand that all things mechanical break at some point, but why not replace the broken piece with one less likely to fail? When your stock tires popped, did you replace them with factory rubber? Or did you get Z-rated tires with a 3 yr/50,000 mile warranty?
I understand that all things mechanical break at some point, but why not replace the broken piece with one less likely to fail? When your stock tires popped, did you replace them with factory rubber? Or did you get Z-rated tires with a 3 yr/50,000 mile warranty?
Originally posted by 911GT2
Did you bypass your AST? Same type of thing. Some might argue that it's there for a reason. Other see it as a fault in the stock cooling system, and get rid of it.
Did you bypass your AST? Same type of thing. Some might argue that it's there for a reason. Other see it as a fault in the stock cooling system, and get rid of it.
Originally posted by 911GT2
My point is, take two cars, on seq, and one non-seq. Full exhaust on each, and take them to a track. They'll run dead even in the quarter, and dead even on a road course. Why? When a car is being pushed, it's never below 4k rpms anyway, so why have the power available there, while walking on thin ice with reliability? Do you ever race anyone from under 4k rpms (aside from the launch)?
My point is, take two cars, on seq, and one non-seq. Full exhaust on each, and take them to a track. They'll run dead even in the quarter, and dead even on a road course. Why? When a car is being pushed, it's never below 4k rpms anyway, so why have the power available there, while walking on thin ice with reliability? Do you ever race anyone from under 4k rpms (aside from the launch)?
However, I beg the differ on the 1/4 mile part though using exact same cars (on stock turbos). Since you aren't gaining anything in the top end only losing the low, the poor-mans NS will not yield the same results there. The full-NS should help as you'll gain slightly better airflow and some added power at the high end.
You are missing my point. I never said that noone should ever do the poor-mans NS. What I said was it's not a good way to fix a boost problem and it doesn't guarantee that it will fix the problem at all. Troubleshoot the problem, don't bandaide it.
08-08-03, 12:21 AM
#29
Rotary Freak
If I could "easily" trouble shoot my Seq. system, I'd go back in a heart beat! 90% of my driving is in the city. But, I know that it isn't going to be easy. So, I probably won't be spending the time to chase down all the issues. Besides, my mechanic said that I have some cracks in turbos and that I may have some transition issues.
08-08-03, 03:01 AM
#30
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I'd suggest using the Sequential/ Non-sequential switch. It's all done electronically. Takes about 45 minutes to install and you can decide on the fly which one you like for a certain situation. I installed mine on a perfectly working simplified turbo control system. If yours isn't already working it'll probably still have issues until u fix whatever is wrong.But if you want to try it I know there's info on it somewhere on this forum. I think i even linked to the install instructions once. Just make sure you get the correct switch. It's not something u can just pick up at Radio Shack but it's not expensive. If u do want to try that route and can't find the info let me know and i'll try to dig it up.
08-08-03, 08:36 AM
#31
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Originally posted by GoRacer
Feared7 - Maybe you can explain it better. These replies are not consistant and are confusing. Full boost to me is the max' boost you can do, not when the turbos "begin" to boost.
On sequential you can have full boost by 4500rpm, but that's only "1" turbo. So if on parallel you have full boost by 4500rpm's on "both" turbos, isn't that more power?
Feared7 - Maybe you can explain it better. These replies are not consistant and are confusing. Full boost to me is the max' boost you can do, not when the turbos "begin" to boost.
On sequential you can have full boost by 4500rpm, but that's only "1" turbo. So if on parallel you have full boost by 4500rpm's on "both" turbos, isn't that more power?
Full boost is full boost. In stock form, 10 psi is it. Whether you get it at 3000 or 7500 rpm, it's still 10 psi. There is more power later in the rev range, but only due to the fact that the engine is spinning faster. The number of turbos operating has nothing to do with it, it all depends on what that little gauge on your a-pillar says.
08-08-03, 08:38 AM
#32
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Originally posted by Mahjik
You are missing my point. I never said that noone should ever do the poor-mans NS. What I said was it's not a good way to fix a boost problem and it doesn't guarantee that it will fix the problem at all. Troubleshoot the problem, don't bandaide it.
You are missing my point. I never said that noone should ever do the poor-mans NS. What I said was it's not a good way to fix a boost problem and it doesn't guarantee that it will fix the problem at all. Troubleshoot the problem, don't bandaide it.
Sorry if you have better things to do, but as for me, I have no life outside of my car (especially when it rains 24/7 and I can't go play with it 
)
08-08-03, 08:51 AM
#33
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911GT2,
You can't really argue with someone unless you are debating the same point. Your poll misses Mahjik's point by a few hundred yards. A few hours of preventive maintenance on the rat's nest and somewhere between $100 and $300 on new parts (hose and solenoids) will provide years of trouble-free driving with the sequential turbos. Substantially changing the characteristics of the car for a fews hours of work is not a good enough reason to go to NS.
You can't really argue with someone unless you are debating the same point. Your poll misses Mahjik's point by a few hundred yards. A few hours of preventive maintenance on the rat's nest and somewhere between $100 and $300 on new parts (hose and solenoids) will provide years of trouble-free driving with the sequential turbos. Substantially changing the characteristics of the car for a fews hours of work is not a good enough reason to go to NS.
08-08-03, 09:06 AM
#34
Rotary Enthusiast
Originally posted by 911GT2
.....My point is, take two cars, on seq, and one non-seq. Full exhaust on each, and take them to a track. They'll run dead even in the quarter, and dead even on a road course. Why? When a car is being pushed, it's never below 4k rpms anyway, so why have the power available there, while walking on thin ice with reliability? Do you ever race anyone from under 4k rpms (aside from the launch)?
.....My point is, take two cars, on seq, and one non-seq. Full exhaust on each, and take them to a track. They'll run dead even in the quarter, and dead even on a road course. Why? When a car is being pushed, it's never below 4k rpms anyway, so why have the power available there, while walking on thin ice with reliability? Do you ever race anyone from under 4k rpms (aside from the launch)?
08-08-03, 12:50 PM
#35
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I like the simplicity of non-seq, but I hate the response. It is true that when I'm rowing through the gears at WOT, it doesn't matter whether I have sequential or non-seq.
But for the other 95% of the time I'm driving, I'm glad my car is sequential. My car makes about 15 psi almost instantly, even as low as 2500 RPM. This is great when I'm driving in the city, or coming home from work on curvy mountain roads.
I think non-seq would be a BIG mistake for someone who autocrosses. Keep that in mind if you are an avid autocrosser.
BTW, I have had no problems with my sequential setup since I simplified it a couple of years ago. A few feet of hose, and only 6 solenoids. The emissions system is more complicated than the sequential system, don't confuse or combine the two.
Wade
But for the other 95% of the time I'm driving, I'm glad my car is sequential. My car makes about 15 psi almost instantly, even as low as 2500 RPM. This is great when I'm driving in the city, or coming home from work on curvy mountain roads.
I think non-seq would be a BIG mistake for someone who autocrosses. Keep that in mind if you are an avid autocrosser.
BTW, I have had no problems with my sequential setup since I simplified it a couple of years ago. A few feet of hose, and only 6 solenoids. The emissions system is more complicated than the sequential system, don't confuse or combine the two.
Wade
Last edited by Wade; 08-08-03 at 12:53 PM.
08-08-03, 01:01 PM
#36
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Ok then, obviously I have become the minority here. And now to bow out with what little dignity I have left, you guys can keep your seq, and I'll keep my non-seq, and we'll all be happy. 
08-08-03, 01:27 PM
#37
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Well I had just done a hose job in Jan and replaced a lot of the solinoids, which amounted to $400 and no car for a few weeks. Then I start getting boost problems AGAIN a few months later. Rather than spend more money, time, blood, and sweat trying to figure this out again, when I know i'm going to dump it when I go single in the future, I just trashed the system. I'm full non-sequential now. I start building boost at the same time I did before, but it rises a little slower now. I think the only people who would complain with this set-up are people who have been spoiled by the almost instant boost of the SEQ set-up for too long. If you've ever driven any high powered turbo cars you would know that full boost by 3500 is not bad lag. Especially when you can rev out to 8000-9000rpms, thats a very broad range of power. And what is the problem with downshifting if you need more power? Below 3000rpm should be for cruising or light acceleration. If you need to get on it, downshift for gods sake. That what gears are for lol.
For the simplicity, reliabilty, and smoothness of this setup, I'd say its easily worth the few hundred rpm of boost I lost out of 8000.
My mods are listed below, so my results will probably be alot different than yours. Good luck with whatever you choose.
For the simplicity, reliabilty, and smoothness of this setup, I'd say its easily worth the few hundred rpm of boost I lost out of 8000.
My mods are listed below, so my results will probably be alot different than yours. Good luck with whatever you choose.
08-08-03, 03:36 PM
#38
Originally posted by KevinK2
Trying non-seq with most bolt ons, I found very good response going wot at 3500 rpm or above .. not doggish. But that is not likely at 3k or below. With seq'l, I hit 10 psi at 2400 rpm in 3rd ... valued by some like me.
Mid range with simple non-seq is better due to lack of transition near the torque peak.
non-seq is inherently rmore reliable by simplicity, and results in less manifold thermal cracks due to more uniform heating.
Trying non-seq with most bolt ons, I found very good response going wot at 3500 rpm or above .. not doggish. But that is not likely at 3k or below. With seq'l, I hit 10 psi at 2400 rpm in 3rd ... valued by some like me.
Mid range with simple non-seq is better due to lack of transition near the torque peak.
non-seq is inherently rmore reliable by simplicity, and results in less manifold thermal cracks due to more uniform heating.
Although the rotary doesn't mind being revved up there is NO reason it needs to be cruised around at 3500-4000rpm all the time. So non-seq guys are either buzzing around at an uncomfortable rpm or completely out of the powerband most of the time.
I haven't had any problems with seq systems breaking myself and I've had 13 FDs. The problems I've had with boost was a non functional double throttle control and a couple cars with new motors where I had reversed a vacuum line. Both were relatively quick fixes.
Oh and what are the ages of most the non-seq guys? I'd bet on the younger side. Just because it is a "MOD" doesn't imply that it is a good one.
08-08-03, 09:34 PM
#40
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I've got one question. How much simplification (emmissions and other solenoids) can be done while still seuquential?
The main atractant of NS is the simplification to near nothing.
The main atractant of NS is the simplification to near nothing.
Last edited by DaedelGT; 08-08-03 at 09:40 PM.
08-08-03, 09:48 PM
#42
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Originally posted by teamstealth
i did the full NS conversion and i get my full stock boost by 3100rpm.
-Zach
i did the full NS conversion and i get my full stock boost by 3100rpm.
-Zach
Originally posted by turbojeff
Oh and what are the ages of most the non-seq guys? I'd bet on the younger side. Just because it is a "MOD" doesn't imply that it is a good one.
Oh and what are the ages of most the non-seq guys? I'd bet on the younger side. Just because it is a "MOD" doesn't imply that it is a good one.
) But I gotta disagree with you here man. As much as I'd like to see the stock seq system work flawlessly, every time, the fact of the matter is it doesn't. And until it does, I'm sticking with reliability over low range, not gonna use it power. If I wanted a wider power band I'd be driving a Z-28, SS, mustang, vette, viper, something along those lines. Half the rev range of "oh my god" acceleration is good enough for me. (Still ing though )
08-08-03, 10:44 PM
#44
Originally posted by 911GT2
Thats awesome, do you have a dyno sheet to back that up?
Turbojeff, you and I both know that I respect and revere you as a god ( ) But I gotta disagree with you here man. As much as I'd like to see the stock seq system work flawlessly, every time, the fact of the matter is it doesn't. And until it does, I'm sticking with reliability over low range, not gonna use it power. If I wanted a wider power band I'd be driving a Z-28, SS, mustang, vette, viper, something along those lines. Half the rev range of "oh my god" acceleration is good enough for me. (Still ing though )
Thats awesome, do you have a dyno sheet to back that up?
Turbojeff, you and I both know that I respect and revere you as a god (
) But I gotta disagree with you here man. As much as I'd like to see the stock seq system work flawlessly, every time, the fact of the matter is it doesn't. And until it does, I'm sticking with reliability over low range, not gonna use it power. If I wanted a wider power band I'd be driving a Z-28, SS, mustang, vette, viper, something along those lines. Half the rev range of "oh my god" acceleration is good enough for me. (Still ing though )
Everyone is going to have different experiences, if you like what you have that is fine with me.
Still I've got some good experiences with the seq system. For auto-xing it is a must, can't really argue with that.
BTW, last auto-x I was at there was a 911GT2, he got last place in ASP, musta had a bad couple of days. SWEET car though. I'd take it and last place
.
08-08-03, 11:19 PM
#45
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I've had the experience to have both stock turbos and upgraded twins setup in both seq and non-seq and overall seq is much more enjoyable. You guys who say about being how when you're racing you're never below 4K rpms anyway - do you race your car 100% of the time? When you're cruising around town or on mountain roads - NS blows - again, it blows. I had full NS with both the stockers and BNRs and I hated it. There was definitely more midrange..I won't argue that. But on the street, a properly maintained and tuned seq car will be the funnest car to drive. I had my FD for 5 years and never had a problem with the seq system - I am one of the few that swtiched back from full NS to seq and loved every second of it. To each his own - I liked 15 psi by 2800 rpms..even if it was on one turbo
08-09-03, 11:49 AM
#46
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Originally posted by turbojeff
BTW, last auto-x I was at there was a 911GT2, he got last place in ASP, musta had a bad couple of days. SWEET car though. I'd take it and last place.
BTW, last auto-x I was at there was a 911GT2, he got last place in ASP, musta had a bad couple of days. SWEET car though. I'd take it and last place
.
kwikrx7, no I don't race my car 100% of the time, nor 50% of the time. Most of my time spent driving is just going to work, school, or other errand-type things. But the car is very enjoyable to me then. I can drive it slow if I want, and fast if I want. But I don't hold on for dear life at half throttle in 1st gear, as I sometimes had to when I was seq. I kinda like having the option of driving with or without boost.
There are many times I drive my car where I never even touch the boost. City and highway driving, it's quite possible to not even bother. Maybe it's just me, but I like the option.
08-09-03, 07:19 PM
#47
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sorry doods...non seq is a drag in town...some of you non seq guys live out in the sticks and so non seq is all fine and dandy...but live in the city and your opinion would be different if you had the pleasure of a highway once a week at most...i mean hell..with non seq you dont get to enjoy it til yer speeding...which you can do out in the country....with seq i can still play in town...zoom zoom.
911gt ...i would like to compare your dyno sheet to my dyno sheet from 4k rpms and below. i imagine ive got at least a 50lb of torque gain on you by 2700-3krpms...if you were sequential we would be much muich closer in the rpm range that is normal for daily driving.
but to each their own....tis an endless discussion.
j
911gt ...i would like to compare your dyno sheet to my dyno sheet from 4k rpms and below. i imagine ive got at least a 50lb of torque gain on you by 2700-3krpms...if you were sequential we would be much muich closer in the rpm range that is normal for daily driving.
but to each their own....tis an endless discussion.
j
08-09-03, 07:45 PM
#48
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Originally posted by artguy
sorry doods...non seq is a drag in town...some of you non seq guys live out in the sticks and so non seq is all fine and dandy...but live in the city and your opinion would be different if you had the pleasure of a highway once a week at most
j
sorry doods...non seq is a drag in town...some of you non seq guys live out in the sticks and so non seq is all fine and dandy...but live in the city and your opinion would be different if you had the pleasure of a highway once a week at most
j
08-09-03, 09:47 PM
#49
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Originally posted by RX-7_ZX-9
I'd suggest using the Sequential/ Non-sequential switch. It's all done electronically. Takes about 45 minutes to install and you can decide on the fly which one you like for a certain situation. I installed mine on a perfectly working simplified turbo control system. If yours isn't already working it'll probably still have issues until u fix whatever is wrong.But if you want to try it I know there's info on it somewhere on this forum. I think i even linked to the install instructions once. Just make sure you get the correct switch. It's not something u can just pick up at Radio Shack but it's not expensive. If u do want to try that route and can't find the info let me know and i'll try to dig it up.
I'd suggest using the Sequential/ Non-sequential switch. It's all done electronically. Takes about 45 minutes to install and you can decide on the fly which one you like for a certain situation. I installed mine on a perfectly working simplified turbo control system. If yours isn't already working it'll probably still have issues until u fix whatever is wrong.But if you want to try it I know there's info on it somewhere on this forum. I think i even linked to the install instructions once. Just make sure you get the correct switch. It's not something u can just pick up at Radio Shack but it's not expensive. If u do want to try that route and can't find the info let me know and i'll try to dig it up.
08-10-03, 05:17 AM
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Originally posted by Zyon13B
Where's the info on this? Sounds neat. I'd like to try it. Can't find anything though.
Where's the info on this? Sounds neat. I'd like to try it. Can't find anything though.
The website that used to have it is down but i'll try to see if i ever saved the info on my hard drive. Gene Felber is the guy's name that had the writeup. He's on this forum and actually helped me make sure i set it up correctly. The only thing weird about it is that if i leave it in non-seq mode and turn the car off when i restart it goes into limp mode. I haven't spoken to Gene about this yet since it's a minor annoyance.