EdwardNorth

Hey all,

I went ahead and ordered the Apexi PFC + Commander package from the RX7STORE a few minutes ago. I feel that this is by far the best thing I could possibly do for my FD at this stage of the game. I might not have the best traction for launching with my tires, but since I drive my FD like a pansy 99% of the time, it doesn't matter. I'll get the tires in a few weeks anyway.

I look forward to being able to hold 12 or so psi as a setting instead of a spike. I won't have to avoid WOT anymore, and I can pursue the hi-flow cat and intake, and even an intercooler upgrade with the base mods map. The ECU really is a bottleneck for those who are just beginning their modding hobby.

I'll do my best to take good notes about the installation when it arrives. I've been told it will be in my hands early next week.

So how do you guys with PFC's and just a couple mods like me like it? Did installing the PFC make a variety of noticable differences for you? Do tell!

Thanks guys.

fastcarfreak

great choice instead of tires. You will not regret it.
When i was near stock and i added the power FC it changed the car competely for the good. Better response, more power, no more hesitation, etc.

dclin

iTrader: (4)

You are going to have it tuned, right? A 'programmable' ecu means nothing unless it's tuned for your specific car. Base maps are good enough to get the car started, but you're throwing dice once you start hammering on it. Find yourself a knowledgeable tuner (specifically one familiar with the PFC), and you'll be good.

turbojeff

iTrader: (30)

Tires would have been a better choice, no question.

Nothing like adding more power to a car that has less traction. If you drive like a pansy anyway then you don't need a PFC. If you like to go WOT and run 12psi you need new tires.

I bought a few wrecked FDs that were running on crummy worn out tires.

EdwardNorth

Man, I got hammered on by everyone in my last thread for considering tires before a PFC (since I was boosting to 12+ psi after installing my DP), and now that I am going with the PFC first, I'm getting hammered on for that.

You just can't win with this crowd, I guess. Why do I even bother posting?

turbojeff

iTrader: (30)

Mods need to be done in the correct order. IMHO you shouldn't tinker with power mods unless the base car is solid, good brakes, tires, plugs, filters, fresh fluids, radiator, etc.

Then you mod the car, again you have to do it in the right order. Add a boost guage, then a DP, CB, etc. When you get to the point you need a upgraded ECU get it. Don't run 12psi before you have the ECU.

No flames intended, just do things the right way at the right time.

tt2323

I wasn't under the impression installing a PFD would remove a spike...i think thats totally up to the boost control correct?

EdwardNorth

PFC's have boost control functions.

As far as modding and my driving goes, sure, I want to make my FD as fast as possible even though I'm very gentle on it. I drive my car very easy most of the time because I plan on keeping it for the rest of my life. However, the mods are for that "1% of the time" that I *am* going to race it.

Besides, I'm not going to just throw in the PFC and then tear it up all over the place. I won't really do much of anything, especially from a stop or corner hard until I put on my S03's. But if I'm in 3rd getting on the freeway, and I want to step on it and feel the rush, my tires are in plenty good enough condition for it. Without a computer though, I will spike up to 12-12.5 psi during transition.

I will be picking up the tires next month.

dclin

iTrader: (4)

I don't think it's the choices you're making, but the fact that it appears you are not clear on the logic or consequences of your choice.

I get the impression that you think adding a PFC with base maps is a ticket to detonation-free bliss. It's false comfort, and we wouldn't say anything if we did not want you to make an expensive mistake. Nobody's flaming you - take the advice for what you think it's worth.

EdwardNorth

From what I've read, quite a few people have been using the base Mods map with nothing but success. I plan on having it tuned once I upgrade my IC, but with just an intake and a full exhaust (DP, Hi-flow not MP, and CB) how would the mods map be a problem? It should run plenty rich, right?

EDIT: I do appreciate the advice you guys give, don't get me wrong. I just don't feel it's warranted to imply that I'm going to wreck my car, that's all.

dclin

iTrader: (4)

Base maps are a starting point - and just that. It's not just fuel, but timing as well - and maps are not a linear thing, it's a '3-D' plot that takes into account a number of readings and adjusts your fuel and timing accordingly.

I am sure people have been driving around on base maps, but mod for mod, each part is different. Can you compare hi-flow cats from one manufacturer to another? How much are you willing to bet that they all flow the same numbers? The same goes for intakes and CB's. The base maps, by it's nature, can't take into account the wide discrepency of performance between parts. Can you say conclusively that none of those with base maps didn't have problems later?

No one is saying you will automatically 'blow-up' up if you drive on it, but if you get a little bad gas, and/or it's a little cold outside, or a number of things that can happen - and you happen to hit a part of that map that doesn't play nice with your mods, you've increased your chances of being unhappy.

EdwardNorth

Well for right now I don't even have an intake or hi-flow cat. I just have my DP, CB, and K&N air filter for the stock box. I might not even be able to pick those up this year. Can you honestly tell me that you think the base mods map would be dangerous for what I have now?

If so, why don't you show me a couple threads where something bad has happened with light mods on the base PFC map that was due to the map itself, because I disagree with your assessment. You're making the base map out to be worthless. Sorry, but I just don't agree.

If somebody like Nocab could run and race successfully off the base mods map with everything he had done to his car, I have a really hard time believing that just an intake and exhaust will be risky.

dclin

iTrader: (4)

Unless you put a car on a dyno and a wideband, you have absolutely no idea if your maps are good for what you have. Period. The base maps are worthless if you plan on getting 100% out of our car, and if you plan on hammering it. By it's very nature, the base maps are generic and cannot take into account the particular condition or mods of a given car.

The PFC is an excellent tool, but like any tool - it's worth is based on how well you utilize it. Hell, I have one - and guess what, I have base maps on my single turbo project, but there is no way I am 'beating' on it with base maps or advising others that it can be done.

I'm advocating caution, not saying you made a mistake or should have bought something else. It's advice, take it for what it's worth.

turbojeff

iTrader: (30)

The PFC base maps are leaner than the stock ECU.

EdwardNorth

The base stock map maybe, but I'd check the PFC forum if I were you about the base mod map. Why would everyone be talking about running very rich on it, even those with more mods than I will have before tuning? I just did a search and read a bunch of threads about the base maps.

I believe you're wrong about the mod map, that or everyone on the PFC forum is wrong...

Anyway, thanks for the replies guys. I DO appreciate the input.

Mahjik

iTrader: (1)

You might want to take a look at this thread:

https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...hreadid=256912

EdwardNorth

Thanks for the link, however I've seen other threads with specific numbers showing how rich the base mods map is. I guess it just depends on the car.

The PFC is ordered and it's on its way. I don't think there's much of a point in not installing it. Perhaps the best thing to do would be to keep boost on the PFC at 10 psi prior to tuning instead of the 12-13 I was hoping for.

Jack

iTrader: (2)

Edward North

My mods include:

M2 Airbox
M2 Medium IC
M2 DownPipe
High Flow Cat
Apexi GT Spec
Wailbro Fuel Pump

Running the Base Mod map my wide band testing proved AFR's were 11-1 on both boost settings that come programed from Apexi.

I have loged over 35 track days since running the Power FC in the last 2 years (Instructor) and EGT's are spot on 1450 F

I was recently at Lime Rock Park 3/30/04 running the stock computer, at 10 psi with the above mods EGT's were 1450F (Wades stock computer multiple mod testing proved accurate)

I just came back from Lime Rock today after reinstalling the Power FC and EGT's were again 1450F


Moral of the Story.......... EGT's DO NOT LIE........ both the Stock computer @10psi and the Power FC AFR's with the above mods are in the low 11-1 's

dclin

iTrader: (4)

Nobody's saying for you not to install it - just be careful, and know where you stand as far as how well suited the maps are for what you have.

My humble opinion is that the 'label' of 'bolt-on' has been taken too far with the PFC. Not blaming you for thinking so, because that's all you hear on the boards - "bolt it on and your good for x number of mods". It's really not that simple. Those that make recommendations like that are irresponsible - where do you think they'll be should something happen to your engine? I'll bet you money they won't be there to buy you a new one.

The maps that come with the PFC may in fact be perfectly suited for your mods/situation, but it would unadvisable to just assume they are. The term 'bolt-on' should be banned for the RX7 vocabulary, because there is almost nothing engine performance wise that you can slap on without doing a bit of thinking/planning. MKIV Supras have mass air meters which afford them the luxury to do so... we don't.

DrunkenBowler

Here' wat u can do. Just don't drive your FD until you get new tires and the PFC at the same time. Just start it up twice a week to get some "blood" flowin' through that bad boy. Then install both of them at the same time. Problem solved. No one whines and your having a field day.

BOTTLEFED

iTrader: (1)

Both dclin and turbojeff are great forum contributors and have a great point. All they are trying to convey is to be careful.
I'm sure they know more than you and have experience with what they are talking about - you don't. You have the right to disagree, but at least take in to consideration their warnings when you install your PFC. I'm sure that is all they are trying get across.

BOTTLEFED

iTrader: (1)

BTW, I think you made the right choice with the PFC. I'm getting mine and I am still running the original tires.
Since you are getting tires soon, I don't think it matters much. It's not so much the fact that you are getting the PFC before the tires, just that you are not showing any plan or direction to your modifications. The PFC is a great tool if used correctly.

EdwardNorth

All I can say is WOW! I ordered the PFC yesterday at about 2 pm Eastern time and the doorbell just rang and it's here! Not overnight shipping, regular FedEx ground. Talk about great service, thanks RX7STORE!

So what do you think I'm safer doing? Keeping the stock ECU with my boost spike issue with only the DP and CB or throwing in the PFC and keeping boost at 10 psi? I'm not determined to race the car and hurt it mind you, I'm just hoping I can have a little fun with it every now and then.

EDIT: If it's NOT safe either way, trust me, I'm not going to go WOT, period. I know I can't debate my way to a safe PFC situation, and while I may be putting up an argument, I absolutely will not do something that might damage the car or engine. /EDIT

Is there any reason to think that with just the DP and CB, I run a risk of being lean at 10 psi with the PFC?


Man, all things considered, everything changed after installing that damn downpipe. All of the sudden boost started going to 12 or so and I can't use my car for what it was meant for. I almost wish I didn't install it now.

Rx-7Addict

iTrader: (2)

If youre spending the money for the Power FC, i would reccomend the $250 the RX-7store charges for a tune on their dyno. Perhaps you think you can tune everything yourself, but I know I would rather have a professional tune it for 12lbs. Worth it, considering what youre paying for the PFC, not to mention the cost of a new motor.

dclin

iTrader: (4)

No, definitely put the PFC in. Never meant to imply simply putting around with it in may cause problems. Just don't hammer on it until you have an experienced tuner go over it, is all.

It's difficult to give (meaningful) tuning advice over the internet - the only reliable advice for your particular car is from an experienced tuner with whatever means they prefer to measure A/F, etc. I honestly don't know who's good with PFCs in your area, but you might want to check in your regional forum.

Fortunate for me, I have cewrx7r1 two speed traps over from me for my PFC needs. And I would never characterize myself as knowing more then others, which simply isn't true - but I have seen more folks on here blow their engines then I can count or keep track of over the years. Just play it on the safe side, refrain from 10/10ths driving until a tune session, and you'll be ok.