New engine running
05-12-03, 05:37 PM
#1
don't race, don't need to
Thread Starter
New engine running
Well, after a 16 hour push, I got the Pneapple rebuilt reman in and running. Only one oil leak (the secondary turbo oil return tube to block wasn't fully tightened) and one coolant leak (lower rad hose to water pump housing, just keep cranking the clamp). Startup was HUGE oil smoke cloud that calmed down after three minutes or so. Drives sooo much better with unbroken motor mounts, too. Now to survive the break in period...
I have two problems remaining. One is an exhaust leak (how original!) at the DP to main-cat interface. My stupid self used a prybar to force the two apart to get the bolts to go through, and I bent the collar. I'll work on it.
The other is a strange tick-tick...tick-tick... every crankshaft revolution. To be honest, it sounds just like sticky lifters (I know, I need to replace the turn signal fluid too!). It's getting a little louder over time. I called Pineapple, and Joel couldn't figure anything in the engine to be causing this. So I'm left thinking 1) pilot bearing, 2) pressure plate bolts tapping something, 3) some other bolt getting in the way? The noise does NOT change at all when I put in the clutch (disengage it from the flywheel, just to be precise). If I recall, the pilot is still rotating when the engine is running, even if the tranny input shaft is stopped with the clutch disengaged, right? The other two possibilities are harder, 'cause I have to figure how to visualize them.
Anyway, if any of 'yall have an idea, please respond. I have rather a few pics of the process, but no place to post them for now (trying to save room on the forum server), but I'll try and do a JPandes type write up soon if I have time. And if you care!!!
I have two problems remaining. One is an exhaust leak (how original!) at the DP to main-cat interface. My stupid self used a prybar to force the two apart to get the bolts to go through, and I bent the collar. I'll work on it.
The other is a strange tick-tick...tick-tick... every crankshaft revolution. To be honest, it sounds just like sticky lifters (I know, I need to replace the turn signal fluid too!). It's getting a little louder over time. I called Pineapple, and Joel couldn't figure anything in the engine to be causing this. So I'm left thinking 1) pilot bearing, 2) pressure plate bolts tapping something, 3) some other bolt getting in the way? The noise does NOT change at all when I put in the clutch (disengage it from the flywheel, just to be precise). If I recall, the pilot is still rotating when the engine is running, even if the tranny input shaft is stopped with the clutch disengaged, right? The other two possibilities are harder, 'cause I have to figure how to visualize them.
Anyway, if any of 'yall have an idea, please respond. I have rather a few pics of the process, but no place to post them for now (trying to save room on the forum server), but I'll try and do a JPandes type write up soon if I have time. And if you care!!!
05-12-03, 05:40 PM
#2
don't race, don't need to
Thread Starter
Hmmm.. I was just wondering: if I put the car into a lower gear while having the clutch disengaged, does the input shaft come up to a speed higher than the flywheel speed? If so, the pilot (if that is the problem) would come up to a higher speed too, and not match engine rev (be faster than RPMS), right?
05-12-03, 08:31 PM
#3
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where do you hear the ticking coming from? Have you checked you belts? How about the crank angle sensor? if it was a bolt head i would think it would quickly cut through whatever it was it was hitting.
I will be installing my engine in a few weeks, so your problems will likely be repeated.
I will be installing my engine in a few weeks, so your problems will likely be repeated.
05-13-03, 02:12 AM
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Have you changed your oil filter, mine happened to have the same sound and I couldn't figure out why but after i did a full service to my FD and changed the oil filter, the sound is gone.
05-13-03, 02:23 PM
#6
don't race, don't need to
Thread Starter
Sound is definately from the rear of the engine. It only makes this noise as the engine gets warm, no noise on startup. The noise is totally engine related, in that it doesnt change at all with the clutch in or out, nor does it change with the clutch in but shifted to a different gear (as above). So I'm thinking a bolt is moving with heat expansion. Taking it to a local reputable shop (Bothell Import) and have them put it on a lift and run the engine warm, and see if we can see it. New oil filter (fram for the break in, K&N afterward 
), old-ish belts (6000 miles or so) but the noise is from the back of the engine. crank sensors were tightened nice and personal like during build up. I actually remember doing it!
Thanks for the replies, guys! I'll let 'yall know, cause I just LOVE to read myself write!!
), old-ish belts (6000 miles or so) but the noise is from the back of the engine. crank sensors were tightened nice and personal like during build up. I actually remember doing it!Thanks for the replies, guys! I'll let 'yall know, cause I just LOVE to read myself write!!
05-15-03, 02:03 PM
#7
don't race, don't need to
Thread Starter
Update: I'm at 130 miles now (like you care!). Runs smoother than when I first drove it. I've spooled the primary turbo just enough to hear it whistle, so I know it's still there. Haven't even been into positive pressure yet!
Took it to Bothell Import (the OTHER Hayes!). Put it on a lift.. the tapping sound is centralized to the center of the oil pan. Only two things come to the minds: oil pickup tube loose, but that would give wierd oil pressure signals, and mine are rock solid and very nice (60 psi at 3000 rpm); low oil level sensor going up and down for some reason. This seems slightly possible, as I pulled it and cleaned it off somewhat before putting it in the new engine. But would a broken or in some way screwed up oil level sensor give a completely regular ticking sound with every crankshaft revolution? Another outside possibilty is one of the shields around the flywheel tapping on a pressure plate bolt, but only after the engine gets warm. I vote for "I don't know". Basically, we've decided that if it hasn't seized up from whatever is going on, it's not likely to be doing that much damage. The noise isn't insane, kind of like a partially collapsed lifter on a four banger.
Other than that, all seems well. I do get 10 seconds of blue oil smoke on start up in the morning, none at warm start up. Figure it's part of the cryo-treated oil setup form Pineapple.
Oh yeah, and the coolant level stays at the top of the filler neck. What a concept, not filling the coolant system EVERY time I drive!!!
Took it to Bothell Import (the OTHER Hayes!). Put it on a lift.. the tapping sound is centralized to the center of the oil pan. Only two things come to the minds: oil pickup tube loose, but that would give wierd oil pressure signals, and mine are rock solid and very nice (60 psi at 3000 rpm); low oil level sensor going up and down for some reason. This seems slightly possible, as I pulled it and cleaned it off somewhat before putting it in the new engine. But would a broken or in some way screwed up oil level sensor give a completely regular ticking sound with every crankshaft revolution? Another outside possibilty is one of the shields around the flywheel tapping on a pressure plate bolt, but only after the engine gets warm. I vote for "I don't know". Basically, we've decided that if it hasn't seized up from whatever is going on, it's not likely to be doing that much damage. The noise isn't insane, kind of like a partially collapsed lifter on a four banger.
Other than that, all seems well. I do get 10 seconds of blue oil smoke on start up in the morning, none at warm start up. Figure it's part of the cryo-treated oil setup form Pineapple.
Oh yeah, and the coolant level stays at the top of the filler neck. What a concept, not filling the coolant system EVERY time I drive!!!
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05-23-03, 12:25 PM
#8
don't race, don't need to
Thread Starter
my favorite pic of the process attached. Ticking noise seems oil pressure related. At idle on a fully warmed engine, the oil pressure is VERY low, but goes to 15 psi at 1200 rpm or so. If I drive and get the oil cool again, the ticking at idle isn't there, then gradually comes back as the oil pressure drops as the oil heats up again. Hmmm....
At 550 miles now, with one oil change. STILL fighting leakiy hoses with these new clamps, so I might rethink them. Got into the primary very briefly to make sure it works. 7 psi at 3200 rpm practically instantly. Yay!
Anyway, just an update...
At 550 miles now, with one oil change. STILL fighting leakiy hoses with these new clamps, so I might rethink them. Got into the primary very briefly to make sure it works. 7 psi at 3200 rpm practically instantly. Yay!
Anyway, just an update...
05-23-03, 12:28 PM
#9
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sounds like your car is getting together!! My engine should be done next week. Good luck on getting your other problems fixed.
If I can ask...My mechanic showed me my left motor mount was broken and im getting it replaced. How do the broken motor mounts affect the way it drives? sorry I know thats a dumb question, lol.
If I can ask...My mechanic showed me my left motor mount was broken and im getting it replaced. How do the broken motor mounts affect the way it drives? sorry I know thats a dumb question, lol.
05-23-03, 12:38 PM
#10
don't race, don't need to
Thread Starter
Not a dumb question at all. My engine would hop up and down in the bay like a kiddie on a pogo stick under low rpm 1st gear creep. Felt like the most warped flywheel EVER!! The rest of the time, the shifter would wiggle back and forth depending on the throttle load. Girlfriend thought it a tad unseemly... With the stock new mounts, 1st gear creeping (into the garage up a slight incline, going over speed bumps, generally annoying 17 yr. olds driving mommies F**ing HUGE SUV!!) is nice and stable, and the shifter is solid. Still think I want to put a torque brace in there...
05-23-03, 12:43 PM
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The ticking is normal, It's more of of metal thing then a problem with a part. tick-tick...tick-tick... $!@$ing wankel. Time for a new motor.
Check the top cover for the flywheel. Small metal plate near firewall.
Check the top cover for the flywheel. Small metal plate near firewall.
05-23-03, 01:22 PM
#13
Can't say for sure but I think you might be hearing the natural ticking noise of a ported rotaty with down pipe. Kinda souns like an old muscle car with headers.
I'd be more concerned with the low oil pressure at idle and smoke at start up. Watch your oil level carefully. Performance built rotaries that I've owned and seen tend to run higer oil pressure from idle to redline. My new RP motor has no less than 30 psi at idle and 90 or so at 3000 rpm.
What did Rob have to say about the oil pressure? What's your oil press at 3000 rpm?
I'd be more concerned with the low oil pressure at idle and smoke at start up. Watch your oil level carefully. Performance built rotaries that I've owned and seen tend to run higer oil pressure from idle to redline. My new RP motor has no less than 30 psi at idle and 90 or so at 3000 rpm.
What did Rob have to say about the oil pressure? What's your oil press at 3000 rpm?
05-23-03, 01:27 PM
#14
don't race, don't need to
Thread Starter
Hmmm... oil pressure warm at 1500 rpm = 60 psi, 3000 rpm = 90 psi.
At cold idle (just reaching 850, but engine still under 180F) OP = 30 psi. At hot idle, drops to 15 psi, and heat soaked oil pressure (running in traffic, no flow over oil cooler) will sometimes just drop out completely (below gauge measuring ability).
Running 10W-30, castrol GTX
At cold idle (just reaching 850, but engine still under 180F) OP = 30 psi. At hot idle, drops to 15 psi, and heat soaked oil pressure (running in traffic, no flow over oil cooler) will sometimes just drop out completely (below gauge measuring ability).
Running 10W-30, castrol GTX
06-04-03, 06:32 PM
#16
don't race, don't need to
Thread Starter
More useless update:
1150 miles and off to the turbos we went last night! 80 mph in 5th, shoved the throttle carefully. Boost gauge tracked the throttle position exactly, up to 11 psi, where I said, yep, primary seems to work
A little later, in third at around 50, shoved it until 10 psi and held on. Barely felt the transition, stepped out of it at 5500. All is well.
Put on a RB dual tip (from Mazdatrix, WHY don't I watch for group buys? WHY!!??). I like that MUCH better than the stock POS that was leaking exhaust out the bottom!
Ticking noise disappeared around 750 miles. Still battling small coolant leak (one thing at a time!) and a squealing SOMETHING form the engine bay on cold start up (air pump!). Compared to all the other sh** I've run through on the beast, small potatoes. Potatos? Quayle?
Liking the FD very much just now. That's all from this one for now...
1150 miles and off to the turbos we went last night! 80 mph in 5th, shoved the throttle carefully. Boost gauge tracked the throttle position exactly, up to 11 psi, where I said, yep, primary seems to work
A little later, in third at around 50, shoved it until 10 psi and held on. Barely felt the transition, stepped out of it at 5500. All is well.
Put on a RB dual tip (from Mazdatrix, WHY don't I watch for group buys? WHY!!??). I like that MUCH better than the stock POS that was leaking exhaust out the bottom!
Ticking noise disappeared around 750 miles. Still battling small coolant leak (one thing at a time!) and a squealing SOMETHING form the engine bay on cold start up (air pump!). Compared to all the other sh** I've run through on the beast, small potatoes. Potatos? Quayle?
Liking the FD very much just now. That's all from this one for now...
06-05-03, 10:45 AM
#17
Ex fd *****
are you reading Oil Press from the stock gauge or Aftermarket? - I THOUGHT I was having Oil Press problems until I replaced the stock gauge w/ a mechanical OP gauge (Autometer) one of the failure modes (and they are many and frequent) for the OEM sender is to be very inaccurate below 30psi and and/or read 0 at anything less than 20psi or so.
Also the stock sender/gauge combo only reads to 120 psi,w/ my new Gauge (0-150psi) I discovered I get 125+psi cold above 3k rpm. and 15psi at Idle hot, the bad sender would read anywhere from 0-20psi at idle at the same temps
Also the stock sender/gauge combo only reads to 120 psi,w/ my new Gauge (0-150psi) I discovered I get 125+psi cold above 3k rpm. and 15psi at Idle hot, the bad sender would read anywhere from 0-20psi at idle at the same temps
Last edited by maxpesce; 06-05-03 at 10:52 AM.
06-05-03, 01:18 PM
#18
development
Spurvo - You the man!!! 
Great pic.
I can't believe you still have leaks?!?!?! With all the work you've put into the coolant sys. Hell, you got me to replace all my coolant hoses at 50k miles...hahaha
...or maybe you just made me paranoid like you.
Tell me your break in process...this rpm for this many miles...then this...or this amount of boost for this many miles...then this...then WOT on the DYNO!!! What's the procedure?
I can't believe you still have leaks?!?!?! With all the work you've put into the coolant sys. Hell, you got me to replace all my coolant hoses at 50k miles...hahaha
...or maybe you just made me paranoid like you.
Tell me your break in process...this rpm for this many miles...then this...or this amount of boost for this many miles...then this...then WOT on the DYNO!!! What's the procedure?
Last edited by dubulup; 06-05-03 at 01:20 PM.
06-05-03, 04:38 PM
#19
don't race, don't need to
Thread Starter
The coolant thing is 'cause my dumb old self decided to try some different style hose clamps from McMaster. They are too wide, so they distribute their clamping force incorrectly, and I get leaks at cold engine (so the coolant level goes down about 5 ml or so. Juuuust enough to annoy!) I'm swapping the clamps when I get back from a business trip. I watch the linearized temp gauge ALL the time, and flip the fans on when it climbs above the second cold mark (about 190F). So far, no real issues...
Break in was as per Pineapple: 0 to 350 miles, stay out of the boost (awwww, but I just replaced all the vacuum hoses!) and don't drive at constant speeds (really, mix up your vacuum load on the engine to help seat the apex seals). Keep the rpms under 3000 (NOT easy).
@ 350 miles, change oil (filter optional), start opening up to 4500 rpms (usually on shifts), keep varying speeds (vacuum signal, thanks boost gauge!) and stay off the boost until...
1200 miles. Here, the engine is essentially as broken in as it will ever be, until maybe 10,000 miles when ALL the clearances are perfect (that's really from my piston days, so who knows if it applies here. I'm talking about main load bearing surfaces here, so probably the same). So you may start opening the rpms up. Don't just drop the hammer, bring it up in successive drives, so 5000 for three of fours drives, then 6000, then redline. Again, be judicious with the throttle/boost here, in case something isn't connected right and the boost leans you out and taps the apex. But also start increasing your boost levels. And change the oil and filter.
Oil pressure gauge a joke! I take it as an advisement that there is SOME pressure in the system, and don't really bother with it. I've only ever seen oil pressure do three things: be normal, skyrocket (plug) or dissappear (oil slick). Good enough for me.
I gotta be honest... I don't really care for dyno work. Heat soak, they don't know YOUR car, it costs a bunch, and I'm running stock but for a DP and cat back (like THAT does anything!). So I'm just not concerned about numbers. Thing hauls *** in 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and cruises comfortably in 5th. That's all I ask for.
Of course, I'm really just a *****, and would be too embarrased to dyno it and say "I only got 265 HP. I suck..."
Break in was as per Pineapple: 0 to 350 miles, stay out of the boost (awwww, but I just replaced all the vacuum hoses!) and don't drive at constant speeds (really, mix up your vacuum load on the engine to help seat the apex seals). Keep the rpms under 3000 (NOT easy).
@ 350 miles, change oil (filter optional), start opening up to 4500 rpms (usually on shifts), keep varying speeds (vacuum signal, thanks boost gauge!) and stay off the boost until...
1200 miles. Here, the engine is essentially as broken in as it will ever be, until maybe 10,000 miles when ALL the clearances are perfect (that's really from my piston days, so who knows if it applies here. I'm talking about main load bearing surfaces here, so probably the same). So you may start opening the rpms up. Don't just drop the hammer, bring it up in successive drives, so 5000 for three of fours drives, then 6000, then redline. Again, be judicious with the throttle/boost here, in case something isn't connected right and the boost leans you out and taps the apex. But also start increasing your boost levels. And change the oil and filter.
Oil pressure gauge a joke! I take it as an advisement that there is SOME pressure in the system, and don't really bother with it. I've only ever seen oil pressure do three things: be normal, skyrocket (plug) or dissappear (oil slick). Good enough for me.
I gotta be honest... I don't really care for dyno work. Heat soak, they don't know YOUR car, it costs a bunch, and I'm running stock but for a DP and cat back (like THAT does anything!). So I'm just not concerned about numbers. Thing hauls *** in 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and cruises comfortably in 5th. That's all I ask for.
Of course, I'm really just a *****, and would be too embarrased to dyno it and say "I only got 265 HP. I suck..."
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