NEW emission standards for the FD's
 

Hey guys im seriously thinking about giving up on trying to pass smog, I just dont think it's possible. I recently noticed California lowered the limits for emissions for the FD's in the past 4-5 months

NEW LIMITS as of 6-24-2010:

HC's (PPM)---61 MAX@15 mph
HC's (PPM)---37 MAX@25 mph

CO (%)---0.36 MAX@15 mph
CO (%)---0.35 MAX@25 mph





OLD LIMITS as of 1-12-2010:

HC's (PPM)---88 MAX@15 mph
HC's (PPM)---53 MAX@25 mph

CO (%)---0.52 MAX@15mph
CO (%)---0.50 MAX@25mph

The first time I passed smog back in 2008 my HC's were at 46 and CO was 34, which would have BARLEY passed me with todays current changes. I mean a few RPM to high or low and i'd fail. I wanna also mention that I had a working air pump and a BRAND NEW high flow cat.

I just think its physically impossible to LEGALLY pass an FD these days. If anybody is passing smog with their FD's I'd really love to hear it. I may have to park this, cancel my insurance, file for non-op and buy a second car, because I dont think I can do this anymore.

Getting this car to pass smog legally is harder then when I performed a full vacuum hose job, replaced the clutch and dropped the tranny, replaced the rear main seal and replaced the rear stationary gear 0 ring. I really don't know what else to do :(

What cat were you using? Ceramic or Metal substrate?

I'm using a random technology metal substrate. I bought it about 2 years ago My HC's when I first installed the cat with a non functioning air pump were 87PPM@15mph and 59PPM@25mph.

Now, with a non functioning air pump 2 years later HC's are 535PPM@15mph and 229PPM@25mph

Metal Substrate cats are not as efficient as cleaning as the regular cats, so going back to a stock type would be better, and getting you air pump working again would be a good idea.

I cant afford $1,200-1,400 for a new oem converter. And if my converter went bad in 2 years, there is another serious problem going on, I just dont know where to start

Is this a modded engine or a stock one? Has a tune up been done? Basically when was the car worked on last?

Here are my numbers from a few years ago with a stock cat (with high, unknown miles on the cat):

Test________CO2%__O2%______HC(PPM)________CO%_____ ____NO(PPM)______
______RPM_MEAS__MEAS__MAX_AVE_MEAS__MAX__AVE__MEAS _MAX__AVE__MEAS
15mph_1768_14.30__0.80_|_88__21___22__|_0.52__0.06__0.01_|_704__150__167
25mph_2922_14.40__0.50_|_53__13____6__|_0.50__0.05__0.24_|_738__136___87

I have seen numbers with the stock cat (or the Bonez) much lower than these so passing should be ok if the car is running fine and the cat is in good shape. Spark plugs and the O2 sensor are the main reason for failure I think.

For comparison, here a test of same setup with an SMB metallic:

Test________CO2%__O2%______HC(PPM)________CO%_____ ____NO(PPM)_____
_______RPM_MEAS__MEAS__MAX_AVE_MEAS__MAX__AVE__MEA S_MAX__AVE__MEAS
15mph_1771_14.69__0.16_|_88__21__120__|_0.52__0.06__0.57_|_704__150__245
25mph_2034_14.70__0.11_|_53__13__106__|_0.50__0.05__0.65_|_738__136__201

I don't think these cars can pass with metallic cats (short of some PFC tuning).

Air pump is an absolute must.

See this post about a study that was done on metallic vs ceramic substrate cats: https://www.rx7club.com/showpost.php...6&postcount=34

The metallic substrates do tend to flow better but they are not as efficient under the conditions that are used for many emissions tests.

and I'm close to moving to Cali from NJ?! If my FD isn't welcome, I ain't goin...

Well I have done a LOT of work recently and instead of going into a long summary of whats been done in the past few months i'll post up this thread:

https://www.rx7club.com/west-rx-7-forum-193/my-current-build-thread-w-pics-907217/

Even if the SMB metallic cats dont work as well, I still dont think a new cat will bring 535 PPM HC's down to below 61, Theres gotta be something else wrong. I know the Air Injection has an issue, so im gonna start with that and work on it today.

The engine is stock

Why not buy a good second hand cat? Dirt cheap. Readily available. You could probably get a good used air pump too. You'd win. I promise.

Edit: Or, for the cost of those parts I bet you could find someone on this forum that would "help" you pass smog.

I do still have a problem with my idle however. Its pretty high its about 1200-1300 rpm and I think I have a vacuum leak somewhere, but then sometimes the idle will drop down to 750 when it feels like it so idk if this is related to the leak in the air injection system or not and this MAY also be related to me failing smog.

My air pump works, that's not the problem, the problem is the air from the air pump is not making it to the cat. I suppose I need to fix that problem first, then retest the car and see what happens next.

In my neck of the woods, people will pass a smog for $200....

I definitely had intermittent idle problems resulting from a vacuum leak. Sometimes fine, sometimes not fine.

I don't see how it is legal to change the requirements on a car after it's been set. C.A.R.B. needs to be abolished with a class action law suit.

What turned out the be the problem?

FWIW,

Here are results of emission tests in Orange County, CA, on our '94 FD in July 2008. The car had 96,060 miles, a slight vacuum leak from a deteriorated LIM-to-rotor housing gasket, no pre-cat, 23,400 miles on a replacement stock cat, 3600 miles on plugs.

Test________CO2%__O2%______HC(PPM)________CO%_____ ____NO(PPM)______
_______RPM_MEAS__MEAS_MAX_AVE_MEAS__MAX__AVE__MEAS _MAX__AVE__MEAS
15mph_1795_14.70___0.0_|_88__21___74__|_0.52__0.06 __0.52_|_704__150__41
25mph_2869_14.90___0.0_|_53__13___23__|_0.50__0.05 __0.24_|_738__136__58

As you can see, the CO is right at spec at 15 mph. The LIM gasket has since been replaced with the upgraded stainless steel version (original was fiberboard and blown out). I'm hoping the next test will look better. Had much trouble passing in 2002; a new Bonez cat failed, had to buy a stock cat. (I think the stock cat's internal distribution of air from the air pump is better than in after market cats.)

How much did you get a used stock cat for, and what was rough mileage on the cat?

Ernesto13B.. This is united States of America which means $$$ talks. You have people in this country that will sell their soul for some money.. I am 100% sure you can find some shop to pass inspection for your car if the price is right.

Besides, Its probably cheaper to pay a couple of hundred dollars than to spend$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ trying to make your car pass.

it ain't welcome. I hate to break it to you but you better be in stock trim or don't bring it. unless you can keep it registered out of state like the rest of us.

if you're close by, i have a bunch of low mile main cats...

air pump air is CRITICAL. all we do with the FC's is make SURE it is getting PORT AIR....

my FC did:

15mph HC 8 and CO 0.05
25mph HC 9 and CO 0.07

and that was on 12 year old gas!

Even if you did purchase a brand new OEM converter and it cost $1200, isn't that still less than purchasing a second car?

And being worried about the OEM cat failing and having to purchase a new one 2 years down the road doesn't make sense. Just put the stock exhaust on, pass emissions, and then go back to your current setup until you have to pass again. I don't see the problem?

I just pasted a week ago. with my original cat, working air pump, and non ported engine. but I was right at the limit. I actually went to one place and halfway through the tes the tech told me his newer machine cant read the rotary engine rpms

I wish there was a way of getting emissions readings in your own garage.

thank god i live in TX. they do not check for emissions where i live. :icon_tup:

Muffler shop Magnaflow FTW!
 

The air pump does help. You can also purchase an electric air pump and plumb it into the cat.

Forget about paying $1200 for a cat designed in 1992.

Agreed. They strap your car to roller and put a grossly unrealistic load on the barrel to get the engine to stress. I think the government should require passing smog for all their vehicles too, including all transport vehicles, 18-wheelers and such, then smog all aircraft that are in flight 24-7, then measure the environmental impact of an aircraft carrier, multiplied by the number of those, add in nuclear subs, NASA rockets, all in the spirit of fairness, of course :)

Ernesto13B,

It sounds like you have engine problems, which you might need to address eventually. For now, most importantly you need to have a functional O2 sensor and a fresh cat. A fresh new cat from a muffler shop will cost you $200 to weld in place of your current one. This might be all you need to get the car to pass. If your cat's bad, you need to replace your cat. There's no substitute for it when it comes to passing smog.

[Next is help from a working air pump, as well as a functioning EGR valve, although you'd probably get an engine warning light if the car notices it malfunctioning. Fresh oil and plugs, and an ignition booster like an HKS Twin Power are good for incremental improvements (You can borrow someone's HKS unit; it takes 30s to put it in.) It's hard to tell if "Guaranteed to Pass" works, but at this point, you might as well try that too.]

Now for the proof:

Last year, with leaking oil seals on a crappy Mazda reman with 60k miles, rolling on tires 7% larger than stock circumference, BUT with a new O2 sensor, EGR valve, and new muffler shop Magnaflow, I got this:

http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/g...6-13110049.jpg

Not cool at all! I didn't even know that was legal to suddenly change the test requirement like that. That said, it should still be possible to pass the test. Here are my test results from January with 75k miles on the stock main cat and a dp (everything else stock):

Test________CO2%__O2%______HC(PPM)________CO%_____ ____NO(PPM)______
_______RPM_MEAS__MEAS_MAX_AVE_MEAS__MAX__AVE__MEAS _MAX__AVE__MEAS
15mph_2938_14.0____0.7_|_88__21___13__|_0.52__0.06 __0.14_|_704__150__127
25mph_2909_14.1____0.6_|_53__13___12__|_0.50__0.05 __0.05_|_738__136__203

I've posted similar numbers year after year so the stock cat seems to be pretty reliable. Back when I had the pre-cat on there the HC was in the single digits, so that could always be your ultimate backup plan, but it shouldn't be necessary.

:lol: same here, my mustang has been running an off-road H-pipe and muffler deletes for almost 3 years now and not a single problem with passing inspection. Most inspection stations down here do not even charge me the extra $15 they used to. Seems they got used to most of the cars down here having loud and smelly exhausts. But i know the second i cross the California state line i am going to get pulled over for excessive noise and pollution.

After reading this thread, I sent the following e-mail to the California Air Resources Board...
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sirs/Madams,

It has been brought to my attention several times over the past years that automobile emission testing requirements are being tightened on cars that were once able to pass smog tests, still perform as before, but for some reason are expected to perform better as they age. I find this difficult to believe both from a technical point of view, and also from a legal one. Ex post facto laws (or rules, in this case) are a very bad thing. They are detrimental to persons having invested in a product in good faith with the expectation that if the product is maintained to its original performance, it will be legally acceptable in the foreseeable future. If test requirements become a "moving target," then the expectation cannot be met.

Here is an example of California emission requirements for the Mazda RX-7 manufactured during 1992 - 1994 product years, and test requirements that have been tightened:

OLD LIMITS as of 1-12-2010:

HC's (PPM)---88 MAX@15 mph
HC's (PPM)---53 MAX@25 mph

CO (%)---0.52 MAX@15mph
CO (%)---0.50 MAX@25mph

NEW LIMITS as of 6-24-2010:

HC's (PPM)---61 MAX@15 mph
HC's (PPM)---37 MAX@25 mph

CO (%)---0.36 MAX@15 mph
CO (%)---0.35 MAX@25 mph

As you can see, a car that could pass the old limits might very well not pass the new ones. Where is the logic that shows that the car should be able to pass the new standards? In fact, our 1994 RX-7 (a 16-year old design) did pass the old limits in 2008, but the measured values were outside the new, 6/24/2010 limits at that time. Where is the technical justification for requiring this car to pass these new limits? Where is the legal justification for an ex-post facto rule of this nature? If the car does not meet the new standards, a class-action suit might be required to force compensation from the CARB to the affected owners of all automobiles which passed previous standards but do not pass the new ones. If the car becomes legally undriveable due to this unreasonable action by the California government, the owners should be entitled to recompense for the current value of their car.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To be honest this seems like a way for the CARB to push people to buy new "efficient" vehicles. But to me that is ridiculous to try and get people to buy a new vehicle when most people are struggling to keep up their current one.

you can, but it'll cost you =].

5 gas analyzer from the SnapOn Modis scanner =P

-AzEknightz

I don't think The State of California controls renewal emissions standards on a local basis. That is controlled by the county governments. Because of this, some counties (like LA) may require a dyno smog (for renewal) while others (like Imperial) require no smog at all.

My '94 RX-7 passed emissions yesterday, the requirements were the same as your January test (which appear to be the same requirements as every test I have on record since 2006). This test was performed in San Bernardino county, in case that somehow makes a difference.


I mentioned your info to the tech, who said they have never heard of requirements getting more restrictive after the original EPA test was performed when the car was new. They suggested that your smog tech may have made a mistake and punched in the wrong vehicle on accident during your June test.

This may be a problem for most since it is illegal to sell a universal cat in California and it is illegal for a shop to install one since 2009. My friend couldn't even get one shipped to his house even though it was going on a track car for the specific class rules that required a cat.

http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z...o/SANY1236.jpg

http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z...o/SANY1239.jpg

http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z...o/SANY1243.jpg

http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z...o/SANY1244.jpg


Ok this is the thing, in January this year when I smogged my FD, it was the first time that I had ever failed so bad, that I was considered a gross polluter. I had never been a gross polluter before how did I know that was gonna happen? On my second test I was a gross polluter again. I'm thinking that once you become a gross polluter, they make your future retest more strict. But what do I know, I know nothing about emission laws.

Our 1994 FD was a gross polluter the first time it was tested, in August 1996. The car was completely stock with 19,657 miles. The faults were "an open circuit" and a vacuum leak (something in the "rat's nest," I think). The tech said that two of the vacuum hoses were incorrectly connected (at the factory, I guess).

Ernesto13B,

Your results are so bad that there must be something basic very wrong. A plug wire not fully plugged in, or a bad coil, maybe?

I'll bet you hear nothing from them. But kudos for making noise. The ones who drive these changes will continue to drive them unless resistance is met. Particularly in California, where politics is starving for popular support and the politicians are looking for any excuse to claim they individually are effective.

David

Where you located? I wouldn't mind grabbing one up from you...

No Emissions in nebraska!!

Cali is tough with cars in general.

Im glad knowing i can buy my sticker when its time to get one. I know for damn sure my car wont pass lol

Here's an interesting lead:

http://www.arb.ca.gov/bluebook/bb10/VEH/VEH-27157.htm

"The State Air Resources Board...shall adopt such reasonable regulations...regarding the maximum allowable emissions of pollutants from vehicles upon a highway...
... and shall not be stricter than the emission standards required of that model year motor vehicle when first manufactured."

Thank you, David; that is certainly worth a bookmark!

For general interest, the test requirements for our '94 in 1998 were as follows:

OLD LIMITS as of 08/08/98:

HC's (PPM)--125 MAX@15 mph
HC's (PPM)---75 MAX@25 mph

CO (%)---0.52 MAX@15mph
CO (%)---0.50 MAX@25mph

NEW LIMITS as of 6/24/2010:

HC's (PPM)---61 MAX@15 mph
HC's (PPM)---37 MAX@25 mph

CO (%)---0.36 MAX@15 mph
CO (%)---0.35 MAX@25 mph

I'm also wondering exactly what the "AVE" (average, I guess) numbers refer to... average of what? All cars for that year? RX-7s for that year? RX-7s in CA? etc. For instance, in 1998 the "AVE" HC was 12 @ 15 mph and 5 @ 25 mph. The CO% "AVE" was 0 at both speeds. Does that mean NO cars had ANY CO emissions in 1998?

But in 2008, the "AVE" HC was 21 @ 15 mph and 13 @ 25 mph. The CO% "AVE" was 0.06 @ 15 mph and 0.05 @ 25 mph. So as you would expect, the average measured pollutants did increase over the 10-year period. Hey, all the bits & pieces are older... what else could happen?

They do here in NC, but not in my county. If they did, 80% of the people here would be walking.

LOL

I've said it before, trying to make a cat last on these cars is futile. Sell the car or move. Midpipe forever for me.

Not even approximating truth. Put a badly designed cat on a poorly tuned FD and this may be true. Otherwise, cats should last indefinitely.

If you review these CA emissions threads closely, it should be pretty clear at this point that a properly running FD with a (non metallic) cat will have absolutely no problems passing emissions in California.

And, guys, it is super cool an' all that you live in some part of the boonies that does not have emissions tests - but I am not sure how relevant it is to this thread. :wink2:

pay the guy off whos doing the emissions? my uncle said thats what he used to do for his porsche when florida had emissions.. not sure it would work now tho, maybe worth a shot?

Kinda of the same here, any car from 1996 and up have to do emissions. 96 and below years are golden no test:icon_tup::lol:

I live on the other side of the boonies in a town called BFE.


But your right. Hopefully you all can figure this out so I can pull it from the archives when I finally have testing here.:icon_tup::icon_tup:

Good Luck...

It seems like the california emissions mania is getting out of hand.

I can't stress this enough,to the people of california and car owners in that state.



You guy's are FUCKED!!!!!!!!!!!!!! FUCKED I SAY!!!!!!!!!! GET THE FUCK OUT OFF THAT STATE WHILE YOU STILL HAVE LEGS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



End of Rant....:patriot: