My motor let go on a dyno... opinions?
11-12-03, 12:31 PM
#51
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I think you have a bad injector or a pressure regulator problem or something similar to that. If your inj duty was 65% with those injectors that would be right about 2800cc's of fuel which is enough fuel to sustain 350rwhp at a safe a/f. With the a/f you are talking about it would be enough fuel to make prob 375rwhp...however you could make that much power with those a/f cause your engine would pop lol
My point though is that you PFC is showing that its telling the injectors to push 65% duty cycle however its obvious that that amount of fuel isnt getting into the engine. If it were you would have been severely rich
STEPHEN
My point though is that you PFC is showing that its telling the injectors to push 65% duty cycle however its obvious that that amount of fuel isnt getting into the engine. If it were you would have been severely rich
STEPHEN
11-12-03, 12:35 PM
#52
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interesting point stephen....regardless, they should have been inching thru the maps tuning and tweaking....not just guess and go.
j
j
Last edited by artguy; 11-12-03 at 12:38 PM.
11-12-03, 01:32 PM
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OK I just reviewed your partial logs and you seemed to be at suicidal AFRs for the entire range.
Although MPH is inconsistent, RPM's are consistently rising throughout the pull range.
At around 5000 RPM (which is where I assume the engine did its grenade impression) your AFRs richen by a half AFR point (to like 12's
), which would be expected as tons of oil mix with the exhaust thus showing a lower Air to Fuel mixture.
This vehicle should NOT have been left on the dyno after the operator noticed AFRs above 13/14. In this case neither the operator nor tuner pulled the plug on this run despite extended periods of 20s. (AFRs of 15 - 20 may sometime been seen for a few 10ths of a second following throttle tip in but NEVER during the high end of the run( Something was drastically wrong with this car before the dyno run.
Although MPH is inconsistent, RPM's are consistently rising throughout the pull range.
At around 5000 RPM (which is where I assume the engine did its grenade impression) your AFRs richen by a half AFR point (to like 12's
), which would be expected as tons of oil mix with the exhaust thus showing a lower Air to Fuel mixture.This vehicle should NOT have been left on the dyno after the operator noticed AFRs above 13/14. In this case neither the operator nor tuner pulled the plug on this run despite extended periods of 20s. (AFRs of 15 - 20 may sometime been seen for a few 10ths of a second following throttle tip in but NEVER during the high end of the run( Something was drastically wrong with this car before the dyno run.
Last edited by jeff48; 11-12-03 at 01:37 PM.
11-12-03, 02:27 PM
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Here is a partial list of what could be the problem
From the datalogit .dat file info
1. BAD fuel map (doesn't look that way from the datalogs) ( Just for a Note: in "Settings 3", you richen the mixture for higher RPMs you do not do so for the PIMs.) Something just to check.
2. BAD Timing maps including negative split situations (there are two NA [naturally aspirated] spots that reflects negative split at N16/P6 and N18/P4). (not likely to cause a pop but who knows?)
But since you didn't run a datalog during the dyno run here are some other things that could have gone horribly pear shaped.
1) Fuel pressure collapse due to pump or regulator mechanical problem
2) Fuel availability issue (empty tank, plugged lines etc)
3) Injector failure
4) Exessive IAT (heat soaked intake sensor leaning mixture with a immediate rush of cold air from the IC during the run which would require a substantially richer mixture).
5. IAT Sensor failure
6. Injector Duty sensor misreport
7. Wastegate failure with associated gauge problem (HA, like that could happen).
8. Timing problems associated with CAS
etc etc etc. All these things COULD cause a problem, but only ONE THING could have prevented a catastrophic failure on the dyno. Someone watching the dyno AFR and screaming LET OFFF!!!!!!! when AFRs reached over 12.
Sorry if that sounds like blame laying but quite simply, when you put a car on a dyno, you do so only AFTER releasing the dyno owner from liability for hand grenades, so it really doesn't matter much at all as far as recovery of your loss.
From the datalogit .dat file info
1. BAD fuel map (doesn't look that way from the datalogs) ( Just for a Note: in "Settings 3", you richen the mixture for higher RPMs you do not do so for the PIMs.) Something just to check.
2. BAD Timing maps including negative split situations (there are two NA [naturally aspirated] spots that reflects negative split at N16/P6 and N18/P4). (not likely to cause a pop but who knows?)
But since you didn't run a datalog during the dyno run here are some other things that could have gone horribly pear shaped.
1) Fuel pressure collapse due to pump or regulator mechanical problem
2) Fuel availability issue (empty tank, plugged lines etc)
3) Injector failure
4) Exessive IAT (heat soaked intake sensor leaning mixture with a immediate rush of cold air from the IC during the run which would require a substantially richer mixture).
5. IAT Sensor failure
6. Injector Duty sensor misreport
7. Wastegate failure with associated gauge problem (HA, like that could happen).
8. Timing problems associated with CAS
etc etc etc. All these things COULD cause a problem, but only ONE THING could have prevented a catastrophic failure on the dyno. Someone watching the dyno AFR and screaming LET OFFF!!!!!!! when AFRs reached over 12.
Sorry if that sounds like blame laying but quite simply, when you put a car on a dyno, you do so only AFTER releasing the dyno owner from liability for hand grenades, so it really doesn't matter much at all as far as recovery of your loss.
11-12-03, 04:29 PM
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i'm inclined to agree with Stephen. 65% injector duty with 1600's should be making a LOT of power, and would NEVER happen at 30% throttle. Something is awry with the injectors and/or sensor.
That being said, as everyone else has pointed out. No sane rotary tuner would ever allow a dyno pull to continue the MOMENT A/F ratios were above 12.5 to 13 with any sort of boost regardless of what anyone was trying to accomplish, thats just a disaster waiting to happen
That being said, as everyone else has pointed out. No sane rotary tuner would ever allow a dyno pull to continue the MOMENT A/F ratios were above 12.5 to 13 with any sort of boost regardless of what anyone was trying to accomplish, thats just a disaster waiting to happen
11-12-03, 05:03 PM
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This represents roughly the last second of the widebands log before the motor went. Each tick is roughly 1/10th of a second. From tick 1 to tick 13 the RPM's rise ~270 rpm. From tick 8 to 13, this pretty much represents when the tuner got on it.
Since the injector cycle is load sensitive, this is the only point where the a/f ratio is "flat". This is seen by the last 10 seconds of the trace shown.
Based on the rapid increase of rpm rate and the flat af/r rate I'm wondering just what this is indicative of.... Anythoughts? Or am I just a big dork who likes graphs
Since the injector cycle is load sensitive, this is the only point where the a/f ratio is "flat". This is seen by the last 10 seconds of the trace shown.
Based on the rapid increase of rpm rate and the flat af/r rate I'm wondering just what this is indicative of.... Anythoughts? Or am I just a big dork who likes graphs
Last edited by TWIFOSP; 11-12-03 at 05:06 PM.
11-12-03, 05:09 PM
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Can you also overlay your inj duty cycles on there? You injector duty cycle tells us how much fuel the ecu is trying to send. If that doesnt make sense along with the a/f then you probably have a mechanical failure that caused the problems.
STILL, this doesnt take blame away from the tuner in my eyes cause they should be watching....however in thier defence if a injector droped out it would happen so fast that there isnt really much you can do. Especially if they were using a tail pipe probe.....which I think they probably were due to the extreme high a/f readings at light load.
STEPHEN
STILL, this doesnt take blame away from the tuner in my eyes cause they should be watching....however in thier defence if a injector droped out it would happen so fast that there isnt really much you can do. Especially if they were using a tail pipe probe.....which I think they probably were due to the extreme high a/f readings at light load.
STEPHEN
Last edited by SPOautos; 11-12-03 at 05:12 PM.
11-12-03, 05:15 PM
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Originally posted by SPOautos
Can you also overlay your inj duty cycles on there? You injector duty cycle tells us how much fuel the ecu is trying to send. If that doesnt make sense along with the a/f then you probably have a mechanical failure that caused the problems.
STILL, this doesnt take blame away from the tuner in my eyes cause they should be watching....however in thier defence if a injector droped out it would happen so fast that there isnt really much you can do. Especially if they were using a tail pipe probe.....which I think they probably were due to the extreme high a/f readings at light load.
STEPHEN
Can you also overlay your inj duty cycles on there? You injector duty cycle tells us how much fuel the ecu is trying to send. If that doesnt make sense along with the a/f then you probably have a mechanical failure that caused the problems.
STILL, this doesnt take blame away from the tuner in my eyes cause they should be watching....however in thier defence if a injector droped out it would happen so fast that there isnt really much you can do. Especially if they were using a tail pipe probe.....which I think they probably were due to the extreme high a/f readings at light load.
STEPHEN
Actually the sensor was tapped directly into the pipe above the hiflow cat.
11-12-03, 07:17 PM
#63
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Your ten second map comfirms my belief that the big drop flattening of the AFRs are consistent with an apex seal blowing. The fact that you show intermittent 12s and 13s is not relevant, smoothing the curve will demonstrate rationalized AFRs between 15 and 18.
Oil and unburned gas entering the exhaust stream increases the ratio of hydrocarbons (fuel) to air. When the seal popped AFRs lowered (although they are still too high). I saw a similar thing happen on a dyno when a piston engine let go and the AFRs dropped from 13.x to below 10.
Despite that, the major problem is that the AFRs were consistently in excess of 16 for 8 seconds before the catastrophic failure. That should not have been allowed to occur.
Oil and unburned gas entering the exhaust stream increases the ratio of hydrocarbons (fuel) to air. When the seal popped AFRs lowered (although they are still too high). I saw a similar thing happen on a dyno when a piston engine let go and the AFRs dropped from 13.x to below 10.
Despite that, the major problem is that the AFRs were consistently in excess of 16 for 8 seconds before the catastrophic failure. That should not have been allowed to occur.
11-13-03, 09:46 AM
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Yea, it looks kinda like they tuned your car. Then they were trying to "dial in" the boost controller to a certain boost level and they werent paying attention to the wb, in the mean time something like an injector, pump, regulator failed.
STEPHEN
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11-13-03, 09:56 AM
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The main fuel maps (inj map and base map) look OK and could not contribute to the problem, nor should they cause the lean condition as shown in the 10 second run.
The timing maps look normal and do not show any obvious signs of being too far advanced or serious incidents of negative split.
However I just looked at the .dat file again on settings 3. Take a look at the 4000-8000 rpm adjustments in the "Inj Adj" section. Now take a look at the fuel maps ("inj map" and "base map"). Those fuel maps show a consistent increase in fuel made available to the engine consistent with the increase in RPM and Pressure.
Now look again at "settings 3" where the 4000-8000 rpm inj adjustments. Between 4000-5000 the adjustment calls for 109% of the injector map to be delivered. Between 5000-6000 the adjustment decreases to 101.6% and rises consistently and slowly the rest of the way to 8000 rpm (103.9%).
According to Steve Kan, a cardinal rule is to never abruptly decrease the percentage of fuel delivered to the engine when going upward in N or P values. The instantaneous leaning of the engine in response to the abrupt fuel cut may be hazardous to your engine's health. Here we note a close to 9% restriction in fuel delivered while the engine increases its revs between 4000 and 5000 RPM. It may not be the cause of the failure, but it is absolutely an ill advised tuning strategy.
The timing maps look normal and do not show any obvious signs of being too far advanced or serious incidents of negative split.
However I just looked at the .dat file again on settings 3. Take a look at the 4000-8000 rpm adjustments in the "Inj Adj" section. Now take a look at the fuel maps ("inj map" and "base map"). Those fuel maps show a consistent increase in fuel made available to the engine consistent with the increase in RPM and Pressure.
Now look again at "settings 3" where the 4000-8000 rpm inj adjustments. Between 4000-5000 the adjustment calls for 109% of the injector map to be delivered. Between 5000-6000 the adjustment decreases to 101.6% and rises consistently and slowly the rest of the way to 8000 rpm (103.9%).
According to Steve Kan, a cardinal rule is to never abruptly decrease the percentage of fuel delivered to the engine when going upward in N or P values. The instantaneous leaning of the engine in response to the abrupt fuel cut may be hazardous to your engine's health. Here we note a close to 9% restriction in fuel delivered while the engine increases its revs between 4000 and 5000 RPM. It may not be the cause of the failure, but it is absolutely an ill advised tuning strategy.
11-13-03, 11:50 AM
#67
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They shouldn't be tuning with the pim setting anyway.
It sounds like they were trying to fatten it up around peak tq which is good, but I agree with Jeff that they shouldnt have droped it off so fast AND they shouldnt have been doing it with the pim settings. Course, since the pim settings are averaged from one range to the other its probably not going to cause any problems major enough to pop the engine. Especially since it never really goes lean on your map according to Jeff.
BUT - Just the fact that they were trying to tune your car with the pim settings doesnt set well with me. If they are experienced efi tuners and know what they are doing they shouldnt be tuning like that.
Honestly though, I still feel like you had a mechanical failure with the fuel system and they just didnt catch it and kept right on going till it poped
STEPHEN
It sounds like they were trying to fatten it up around peak tq which is good, but I agree with Jeff that they shouldnt have droped it off so fast AND they shouldnt have been doing it with the pim settings. Course, since the pim settings are averaged from one range to the other its probably not going to cause any problems major enough to pop the engine. Especially since it never really goes lean on your map according to Jeff.
BUT - Just the fact that they were trying to tune your car with the pim settings doesnt set well with me. If they are experienced efi tuners and know what they are doing they shouldnt be tuning like that.
Honestly though, I still feel like you had a mechanical failure with the fuel system and they just didnt catch it and kept right on going till it poped
STEPHEN
11-17-03, 06:15 PM
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I mentioned that cause it seems like from Jeffs post that they tuned your car using the PIM settings. They shouldnt have been tuning your car using the PIM settings. I didnt really mean that they were changing the pim settings during that particular run
STEPHEN
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11-17-03, 06:53 PM
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Originally posted by TWIFOSP
...this wasn't actuallya tune run, as much as it was to calibrate/baseline the boost controller.
...this wasn't actuallya tune run, as much as it was to calibrate/baseline the boost controller.
while i think it's obvious that something mechanical went boink, wouldn't the best way to 'calibrate' a boost controller be to set it all the way DOWN and raise the boost from there?
11-17-03, 06:58 PM
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Originally posted by $150FC
i am still not clear on what you mean by 'calibrating the boost controller'. was he trying to see what the boost was set at? Trying to see how the turbo would boost?
while i think it's obvious that something mechanical went boink, wouldn't the best way to 'calibrate' a boost controller be to set it all the way DOWN and raise the boost from there?
i am still not clear on what you mean by 'calibrating the boost controller'. was he trying to see what the boost was set at? Trying to see how the turbo would boost?
while i think it's obvious that something mechanical went boink, wouldn't the best way to 'calibrate' a boost controller be to set it all the way DOWN and raise the boost from there?
No nothing new... We're going to rip the motor out and fuel system and see what's borked.
11-17-03, 06:59 PM
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Originally posted by SPOautos
I mentioned that cause it seems like from Jeffs post that they tuned your car using the PIM settings. They shouldnt have been tuning your car using the PIM settings. I didnt really mean that they were changing the pim settings during that particular run
STEPHEN
I mentioned that cause it seems like from Jeffs post that they tuned your car using the PIM settings. They shouldnt have been tuning your car using the PIM settings. I didnt really mean that they were changing the pim settings during that particular run
STEPHEN
11-18-03, 12:36 PM
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So I just got back from the motor tear down. Popped it open and lo and behold... carbon in the front chamber... carbon on the rotor... carbon in the ports... The apex seals were frozen in.
No real signs of detonation. Just score marks from apex seal chunk flying about.
Front rotor housing is nice and gouged... same with the rotor.... pretty much that half of the motor is a paperweight.
So the tuner was right about the carbon all along. Just wanted to mention it to clear any confusion and any names. A lesson to all the finger pointers out there.
My motor let go... it happened to be on a dyno. From just the look of the motor, it would have let go soon anyway. Better there than on the highway. Nature of the beast.
Mazda remans suck!
No real signs of detonation. Just score marks from apex seal chunk flying about.
Front rotor housing is nice and gouged... same with the rotor.... pretty much that half of the motor is a paperweight.
So the tuner was right about the carbon all along. Just wanted to mention it to clear any confusion and any names. A lesson to all the finger pointers out there.
My motor let go... it happened to be on a dyno. From just the look of the motor, it would have let go soon anyway. Better there than on the highway. Nature of the beast.
Mazda remans suck!
