ebb

Consider yourself lucky, they didn't do anything to your car that you were not going to do right after you got it back. Check the boost at wot. How else would they know if all was well? Could have happened a few days later and you would not have had the offer for the labor. Not likely they blew it while idling though.

As far as pineapple, I have one and would use them again.

qazvick

sounds like either Mazsport or Maztech. They're both kick *** places. Am I right?

cavellm

Oil changes and power steering hoses are completely seperate from boost problems and engine blowing.

They're responsible for the car in the time they have the car in their care. If there were problems with the engine and/or turbos, I would think they'd make every effort to ensure the tests they were going to perform would not damage said engine/turbos.

The guy said he has gauges, so I'm assuming one of those is a boost gauge. If they fixed the boost leak, whatever it may have been, then they should be aware of what potentially may happen. Just adding an Efini y pipe and downpipe would not cause an engine to blow if a mechanic keeps his eye on the most important thing in cold weather. Boost gauge.

Especially 50k miles on the motor, which had nothing else wrong with it going into the shop. Stated before, that's what insurance is for, right?

Telling the guy that it blew while idling is bullshit, that's not gonna happen. Why would they lie about that at all in the first place? Maybe the engine detonated somehow, and the 1st time it came down to idle it died and went kaput, but they should've told him that in the first place.

Maybe they just don't want to claim it on their insurance, or look bad, or whatever. Since it sounds like there's not many rotary specialists in the NW.

hypntyz7

I still think you all are missing the big picture here. The analogy I made up above was just to give you an idea.

Basically you're dealing with an engine that is a) known to blow at any given moment for no real discernable reason and b) is known to blow in the 25-70k mile range. I have rebuilt FD engines with less than 7k miles on them, and even NA rotaries with 60k miles. Bottom line, as much as we love the rotary, we must admit that it is very sensitive and unpredictable.

Because of these facts, we can all hold our opinions on this topic, however to take an objective view, there is NO WAY you could ever prove that the shop did anything wrong in this case. The public eye might take a different view, but that is obviously the legality of the situation.

ON another note. The owner of the car did the mods. HE Bolted on teh downpipe and intake ypipe. NOT the shop. IF the shop does it, and is asked to be sure everything is okay, and they blow it up, well, I can see that being partially or even largely their fault, because they **were commissioned to ensure the engine's safety during the modification**.

HOWEVER, that is not what happened here. The OWNER bolted on the mods without much testing, but knowing the risks involved. He alone knew and accepted those risks. The car was so modified when it entered the shop's door, so they can and should assume no responsibility for assuring they were done safely or properly, or that the additional safety requirements had been met. Those mods, on any engine, are widely assumed not to be safe in and of themselves, especially on a 50k mile turbo rotary that is known to be temperamental even in stock form.

The blame for losing the engine can rest on no one's shoulders but the person who did the research into the mods, and physically installed them. HE did not hire teh shop to do fuel/control mods, dyno tuning, wideband tuning, or anything of the sort, so why are you then charging them with those responsibilities?? They were charged with doing regular maintenance on the engine, not to tune what was already done to it.

PolishDude

wtf are you reffering to?

and novadan67 this is real simple. Take your car from there right now the way it is and make sure that the engine bay looks the same as when you dropped it off. Like no boost controller or anything. Now drive the car and floor it in 3d gear and test your boost all the way to redline. You may need a long free area but blown motors still build the same boost normally (unless your turbos were damaged a ton) they just rev VERY slow. So if your boost is going over 10psi then you can blame the shop for being neglegant.sp? Any way I believe that the engine blew because they overboosted and a motor like that with those mods would have lasted for a long time until a water seal went out. I also have a 94 with just now hit 50k miles and it's running great. The shop was at fault that's why they said that thing about the idle and they were so quick to offer the free labor. Go testdrive your car and check for yourself. The motor is very fragile in its state right now so don't mess with it after you do the test or you could screw up more stuff. Also to get it started you will probably have to floor the gas and crank for about 15-20 seconds. Hopefully the car isn't flooded already.

good luck and email me yanni25@ufl.edu if you have any questions as I am banned from the forum because of some *******.

-Snook

hypntyz7

IF a blown engine lacks some compression, compression is a measure of air moved through the engine, and air drives the turbos, how is it that a blown engine could boost as much as a healthy engine??

teamstealth

there is no way it could boost as fast anymore. One working rotor means half the air volume, which means double spool time. and its because of the LOOOONG spool time that the engine "takes forever to rev up"

jeff48

Sorry Hypntyz7 you are totally legally incorrect. ANY damage or loss to the vehicle that occurs while that vehicle is in the hands of the shop, is the shop's problem. Depending on the state law. the shop may have a defense (prior defect) but it is going to have to prove the existence of a prior defect. The fact that the shop is willing to work on cars with "notoriously touchy" or "modified" engines is going to work against the shop's interests.

Again, I want to say that the shop is at least trying to be concilliatory and that is commendable. It is also trying to minimize its liablility (which is expected and not even unethical or immoral). It could also take a really hard line, but is trying to be helpful. Ultimately it is the owner's call whether to be concilliatory and take the offer or negotiate or litigate for a better result.

AGAIN, it is an incorrect assumption that the shop is only liable for damages to parts they were contracted to fix. Shop owners reading this should IMMEDIATELY contact their attorneys to determine the extent of their liability and determine ways to limit or insure against such problems.

EpitrochoidMan

Thank you jeff48, when the car is in your hands its your problem.


Hey hypntyz7, after seeing how you feel about all this, can I take your car out for a test drive?

GsrSol

Yes the shop is being nice by offering the free labor, knowing they are responsable for more and trying to take the easy way out.

They could have damaged your turbos too so keep that in mind.

The ypipe he installed in an OEM part! I would have another shop check it over to see any possible reason why the motor blew and go from there.

BATMAN

This is a hard one........ I figure if the car had low miles, reliablity mods, stock boost then they are offering a good deal.

If ur boost is modified and/or u have worn out turbo wastegates that allows boost creep, then it's really not their fault. It could be u 5 minutes after u took the car from the shop.

So at the very least they are throwing in the labor for free.

Owning a FD has it's plus and minuses.

Trout2

iTrader: (5)

This one is a tough call without being there and knowing the entire story.

I would get a second opinions/compression test from a third party before taking money out of my pocket.

I think they are offering you a decent deal and agree that its probably not worth the expense to gamble on lawyer bills (you could spend enough to go single turbo with ported motor and all the mods with a lawyer and stilll come out a loser).

However, I would want the shop to pay someone else competent to do the work. Shops don't like doing freebies and often skimp on the small assembly details if not making money. Getting the small details right is a big part of making these cars somewhat reliable.

Don't sign anything releiving the shop of liability until the car is running correctly like it was before left for repair. There's a good chance your turbos got damaged with apex seal failure. Whatever the resolution comes to be, get it in writing.

As for the stock ECU question, the car will run but not to its potential and depending how agressive the port is you could be setting yourself up for another blown motor.

Jack

PolishDude

I'm just going from experience. When I had a chipped apex seal the car boosted exactly the same. Then when I totally blew it out it also boosted the same but it took like 30 seconds to get to 5000 rpms.

teamstealth: You are wrong. I didn't say the spool time is the same I specifically said it takes forever. It is not because the engine is taking a long time to build boost that it revs so slow. It's because the front rotor has to carry the rear rotor with it so you are effectively losing so much hp that won't reach the ground. Any way this is how it worked on my car guys. If he drives the car and sees that it goes over 10psi then boom there's your problem right there.

but everyone on here is an expert true genious
I guess I wouldn't be right

Snook

cavellm

I went through a similar situation last week.

I work for a pc repair company, and we had a huge transformer explosion that damaged a few city blocks last Saturday.

All along one side of our tech bench, pcs got fried. Literally, with sparks and smoke coming out of them.

When someone leaves their computer with us, we're resp[onsible for it. Even though it wasn't our fault, it was the electric companies, we repaired or replaced all of those that got damaged. Then we filed an insurance claim. That is what insurance is for.

That's what this mechanic should have done.

BATMAN

if they install the engine and it pops again, expect that to be coming outta ur pocket 100%.

BATMAN

that is a good point that i overlooked.

furthermore, most engines pop if and when u get on it hard.

Especially in the first couple gears.

If he didn't go WOT then it shouldn;t have popped until u drove outta the shop with it.

hypntyz7

I wouldnt say Im an expert or a genious, but I know how **** works, I work on these cars on a daily basis. I dont know everything, by far, but I would say I know enough. Its what Ive done for the last few years, I hope I know something.

In my experience, blown engine cars usualy pull about half the vacuum and boost about half as high as they did previously. Makes total sense in retrospect, as half the engine usually dies when you blow apex seals, so you're only getting half the compression you used to.

I'd bet my *** that if this went to court, all teh shop would need to do is show a few examples (as if there is a lack of them) of FD's or turbo rotaries in general that let go at odd times for no apparent reason. Hell, look down about 2 or 3 pages at the guy who blew his MAZDA INSTALLED, MAZDA REMAN in less than 12k miles! For someone who can clearly see how these cars *can potentially* have problems for no real reason, there is no way they would hold that shop responsible for what happened.

IF what you say were true, rx7 owners would be scamming shops all day long. They'd take a tired old low compression engine, bolt on a full exhaust and intake, then take it to teh shop for a vacuum hose job. When the shop went to test their work, the thing would run lean and blow the already weak apex seals, and the owner gets a new motor for free. Bullshit.

The most they'd ever get from me, (FOR FREE THAT IS) would be a USED engine with equivalent mileage to the one that was already in place. If they wanted a new one, they'd have to buy it.

Absolutely. I built MY OWN. Take it out and hold it to the floor, I GUARANTEE you'll make it back and still have all the apex seals intact. But, i built it myself, installed it myself, and modded it myself. Plus, it is just coming off breakin with about 1500 miles, so everything internally is as good as it can be.

Im not saying what I did above to say that our cars are pieces of ****. I am saying that especially when modded, or higher mileage (50k is getting 2/3 of the way through the FD's average life expectancy, so i regard that as high mile), these engines can let go for no rhyme or reason. I have rebuilt enough low mile cars to know this. I have rebuilt FD/FC motors with less than 10k miles on them that were professionally built and tuned.

I Have seen cars blow apex seals at WOT, shifting gears (most of the time), at startup, shutdown, and at idle.The blown seal does not come, in most cases, right when you're raising hell, but a few seconds or minutes afterwards, in my experience.

jeff48

Please take this in the spirit it is offered. Don't bet anything or say anything else publicly that could come back to haunt you until you talk to your business attorney.

Your theory that all RX7 owners are potential scammers looking for freebies is offensive and, to me, reflects on the character of the speaker. I, for one, would not knowingly employ someone who believes that I would scam him if I could. I find that such people justify their actions by "doing unto others before they do unto you". Call that lawyer soon.

BATMAN

scamming goes both ways.........

EpitrochoidMan

hypntyz7, you work in an automotive shop, you should know better than anyone. If something happens to a customers car, even if it is something you had absolutly nothing to do with, it's your fault.

We just bought an engine after doing some tranny work. The customer was about 1/2 an hour down the road, waterpump went, engine fried. She was convinced it was our fault. If we went to court would we probably have had to replace it?, no. But, then the woman would have told all her friends/family/coworkers about her bad experience at our shop. We get tons of referal business and we don't do it by not taking responsibility, regardless of the reason.

BigIslandSevens

iTrader: (4)

Can't someone stop this three page waste of space now.. The owner of the car already agrees that the shop is doing the correct thing. END OF STORY!! All these keyboard lawyers are funny!! This is wasteing our preciouse server space.

jeff48

I hate to disagree with anyone laying up in the islands but consumer awareness is never a waste of space. BTW I am a little more than a keyboard lawyer----I think!

BigIslandSevens

iTrader: (4)

I agree consumer awarness is important( but i think the consumer has been made aware by this point, don't you?)... As a matter of fact I have another customer right now who the Benz dealer told the lower control arm bushings are bad. I took the arms off at the customers request to change them and low and behold they are like new. Turns out the dealer is ripping all people with e- classes off so they can pay for their 1300 dollar tool. You may very well be a lawyer , so is my girl who is a business and family law attorney. So no disrespect to people that know the law.( it's just that alot on here speak out their *****!)

jetmech77

Exactly....you just took you car there to get it fixed....they probably let one of their junior mechanics take it out for a spin.....some 20 year old probably for a joy ride... exceeding temp and rpms, and burn outs and such.
Not that I blame them for having fun....

but you know the rule " you broke it, you bought it!!!"

mwpayne

[QUOTE]Originally posted by EpitrochoidMan
[B]hypntyz7, you work in an automotive shop, you should know better than anyone. If something happens to a customers car, even if it is something you had absolutly nothing to do with, it's your fault.

Hey Kevin, it that case, don't you owe me a new body kit and a paint job?