WildKarrde

It is a 5-speed, silver, 1 owner (he owns a Mazda dealership), and it was totally rebuilt about 1000 miles ago. Brand new engine and turbos. Brand new paint job, although it looked a little shabby when I saw it, and had a few scratches, but it might have just looked bad because it was dirty. And it had a really nice sound system in it. The downside? Almost 125,000 miles on the clock, an asking price of $13,500, and no bank will finance it.

What I'm wondering is if this is a fair asking price? I think I will offer him $10k - $11k. Also, are there any common problems with the car that I might run into? When can I start expecting to run into them?

I've been eyeing this car ever since the RX-8 was released. (The reason he rebuilt this car was to display it side by side w/ the brand new RX-8.) It went on sale about 6 months ago, and it's been there ever since. From what I understand it's mostly the fact that anyone who wants it can't get it financed. I fell in love with the car last Thursday, when me and a friend were out test driving cars, and we went to try out the RX-8. (His first time in the car, my third... but I didn't tell the salesman that. :P) I asked if they still had the RX-7, and to my amazement, they did! I went out to check it out, and got to crank it up, sounded really nice. It was when I revved the engine up 2k, 4k, then 6k RPM's that I knew I had to have it!

So to make a long story a little bit shorter... I am madly in love! And anyone who has ever been in love before knows that love is blind. I want to know what I'm getting into. My major concern is that I can get the same car elsewhere for $6,000 to $8,000. But they are not rebuilt... so how long would it be until I end up spending that money I saved anyway? At least if I spend it in the beginning for a rebuilt car, then I don't need to worry about spending it on something else, then needing it 3 months down the road. Or maybe, I can get a car for $6,500, and rebuild it right away for $3,000 more, and save the money, and hassle of trying to bargan. I am uneducated in the maintenance and upkeep of a rotory engine car, so please enlighten me.


[EDIT] Forgot to mention, the car really was totally rebuilt. Even the interior is mint condition, brand new leather. The first time I saw the car it was in showroom condition. The only thing keeping it from showroom condition now is the paint job... which might not look so bad if the car had been clean.

FormulaRX

rotary engines can be your best friend or your worse enemy..treat it right and it will do the same in return, but neglect it and things get ugly real fast.

www.rotaryengineillustrated.com to learn about the engine

One thing that you need to know is that rotary engines burn oil more than the average piston engine, but that's because it MUST burn oil to lubricate the apex seals...that's the nature of the engine. Also fuel mileage might not be as good because the design of the combustion chamber is not as efficient as a comparible piston engine, but that's the nature of the rotary. Also, these engines tend to run on the hotter side...I don't know why this is, but exhaust gases and underhood temps seem to be pretty high.

as far as asking price, I don't know if that's a good deal or not. Kind of difficult to say if any car that old and in that condition would be a good deal at a certain price cuz you really don't know the history of the car for certain. Hopefully someone else will chime in.

125K on the chassis is not really a downside as long as the car's been properly maintained. And most RX-7s this old are either on their 2nd or 3rd engine replacement since the rotary engines tend to need rebuilds every 60-70K miles, moreso as you start modding it to pump out more power. Don't get me wrong...they are not fragile engines but ones that need to be in tip top shape in order to run at theri best, otherwise things start tearing themselves apart fast. Can you take pics of the car and post them up here?

WildKarrde

Thanks for the website! I only looked at it quickly, but it seems to have a lot of info, I'll be reading it more in-depth in the next few days.

I am hoping that the previous owner has all the paperwork on it. I assume he does... considering he owns one of the largest Mazda dealerships around, certainly the largest in the state. But I certainly know what you mean... which is why I am somewhat concerned. How much does a rebuild cost?

I don't think I'll be modding it for HP too much... maybe I'll try to get 300hp or so out of it after a while, but 0-60 in 4.8 - 5.2 seconds for stock is already REALLY fast. (Every stats site I read has a slightly different figure.)

Another question, I have read some people saying that you should drive the car more gently, and it will last longer. But other people say that driving the car at high RPM's is actually what it was designed for, and therefore it will last longer that way. Any comment?

I will be cruising around some either later today, or sometime tomorrow, so I'll probably swing by there to get some pictures while I'm there. My camera is digital, so throwing them up here would be no problem. Thanks for the reply! Any info is appreciated.


[EDIT] Sort of off-topic, but I just noticed your avatar. Are you in any way involved with the Gumball races? I plan on being a participant someday.

JConn2299

That's a good strategy, especially if you show up with the money in hand. Turn the car salesman's famous line back on him. "Here's $10,000. Do you want to sell this car today?"
( They're always asking, "What can I do to get you to buy this car today?")

The fact that this car has gone unsold for 6 months indicates that the market thinks the asking price is too high. Bargain hard. Even if they don't accept the deal you'll feel you did your part. I've had cases in which they didn't accept my offer, only to call me back in a few days asking if my offer was still good. It's the old "bird in the hand is worth two in the bush" thing. They'll know you're serious. They respect that. Just don't seem too eager. Don't let them know how much you like the car. They sense that and manipulate your desires. Be business like. Offer $10k....be prepared to go up to 11 if you think it's worth that, but then stick to your limit and let them know you're serious about it. It's worked time after time for me.

I bought my '95 FD new for $5,000 below list price. The market was soft and I took advantage of it. I shopped around for a dealer who wanted to make the sale.

FormulaRX

Gumball? heh I wish...I'm not rich enough to compete with all of the Lambo and Ferrari guys and even if I could, I wouldn't want that much wear and tear on my car.

As far as driving the car, it's meant to be driven hard and has no problems turning high rpm since that's what rotary engines love! What you may have heard about running it easy probably has to do with the short period after startup. Not just rotary cars but any car you should drive it easy after morning startup to let oil teperatures get up to operating levels otherwise you would ruin your engine if you floored it from the start. These engines are meant to be driven and redlining shifts one in a while won't kill them either. How long it lasts has nothing to do with what rpm the engines run at, but moreso with maintenence...was oil changed regularly? were all services done on time? were parts replaced with quality stuff and done by professionals who know what they're doing?

300hp is easily achievable and 400-450hp isn't that hard to attain either, although it will cost you more! Make sure the car is running in good condition before you begin modding as a poorly running engine with mods only exacerbates the problems. It's a truly amazing car though...drives and feels totally different from anything else.

You definitely should test drive the car before you buy it. If possible, get a rotary specialist mechanic to come along with you and perform some regular checkups like compression, boost, etc tests...I think they only charge like $60 or so...a good price to pay just to make sure you're looking at a legit car.

Some things to take note of:

Upon start up, if the car is working properly as it should, the engine should shoot up to 3000rpm right after startup and idle there for a while. This is the quick warmup system that's installed to get these engines up to temp quick. If the car is in 1st gear with the clutch in while you start it, it will idle at normal 1000rpm. If you blip the throttle the idle will also fall from 3000 back to 1000 rpm, otherwise if started in neutral, the car should idle at 3000rpm.

Most important for rotary engines: always let it get up to operating temperature before shutting it down. Never start up the car in the morning just to move it out of the driveway and then shut it off within a matter of minutes because the engine will flood and will not start again unless the spark plugs are removed and dried and the excess fuel is cleared from inside the housings. If you don't intend to drive the car and just need to start it up to say move it out of the garage in the morning to wash it, let it run at least for 10-15 minutes or so until operating temps get up to normal, then blip the throttle a few times before shutting it off.

Some numbers for you to watch out for.

If the car has a boost gauge installed, then you can check boost on that, otherwise you can just hook up a boost gauge to teh vacuum line on the manifold.
The car comes stock with a sequential turbo system (composed of different sized primary and secondary turbos) and puts out a stock boost pattern of 10-8-10 psi as you go up the revs. (if the car's been upgraded to a single turbo conversion then you will not see this 3 step boost pattern). The slight dip in boost as you climb up the revs happens as the smaller turbo switches over to the larger turbo. If it doesn't boost 10-8-10 providing the engine is stock, then something is wrong and there could be a boost leak somewhere or your turbos could be shot.

Engine vacuum at idle should be somewhere around 12-15 inches if I'm not mistaken. Anything less indicates a worn engine that maybe need rebuilding.

Engine compression for a rebuilt engine or original engine in good shape should be between 95-120+ psi on all 6 rotor faces with 85psi being the minimum acceptable compression before a rebuild is needed. Of course you would ideally want all 6 faces to be above 100psi for a healthy engine.

Drive the car and make sure it tracks straight, doesn't have any rattling or strange noises, and steering/brakes feel good.

and another thing to watch out for is these cars have the notorious 5th gear synchro problem so drive the car up to speed enough to engage 5th gear. 5th gear should engage smoothly...if it grinds while going into gear, the 5th gear synchro is out and needs replaced.

Yeah hope I didn't scare you but these cars are finicky like that...it takes a special kinda of love to own the RX-7

scotty305

iTrader: (2)

Don't buy this car without reading this review of it:
http://www.epinions.com/content_92709097092














^^Seriously, go now and read it. Then read it again.























In addition to that, there's a TON of info available on these cars, and a lot of it has been compiled in the FAQ here:
https://www.rx7club.com/3rd-generation-specific-1993-2002-16/faq-3rd-gen-other-useful-links-68640/



-s-

WildKarrde

Thanks again for the info. In reference to JConn2299's post, I actually sort of screwed up the "don't act too interested" rule when I first saw the car. See, I wasn't seriously planning on buying it at the time, I just wanted to check it out. And my primary goal in going to the dealership was to test drive the RX-8, so I was partially feigning interest to get that test drive. Later on, I started seriously thinking about buying an FD RX-7. Today, when I went to go get pictures of it (I'll post them next) the salesman asked me if I was serious, and I told him I was probably buying one, but I didn't know if I would buy that one, because I could get the same RX-7 in similar condition for $6,000 - $8,000 elsewhere, and that the only reason I was still around was because the fact that the car was practically new *might* be worth the extra money. Basically, I told him I was trying to decide how much the car was worth to me. So I think I covered my back there... all said and done though, I won't have a hard time sticking with whatever offer I make... if I don't get this car then I'll probably shoot for a '94 or '95. And since I just started a used car dealership... as long as I have the patience I'm sure I could find one.

Thanks again for another great post, FormulaRX. My most major dilemma, in getting somebody to check out the car... is that the only specialist I know of in my area (Upstate, SC) is the dealership that I am buying the car from. This is a double eged sword. I am assuming that they did everything right, perfect even, considering that the owner of this car is also the owner of the dealership. But the bad part is that it pretty much leaves me at the mercy of taking their word for it. Not that I think they are dishonest... but getting them to check out the cr for me would seem rather pointless. If anyone knows of another place in my area that I could take the car, it would be greatly appreciated. Or if anyone has dealt with this dealership, it would be nice to know how you were treated. As for being scared... not me. I am very meticulous about upkeeping my cars. Even the Cavalier I drive now... it's a piece of trash, but it's quite fast (compared to other Cavaliers) and I drive it really hard... but it keeps running really strong. Only because I maintain it really well though.

Scotty305... that is the best review I have ever read on the RX-7. I really appreciate that link. I learned a lot... and I know a lot of the right questions to ask the owner when I meet with him.

Next... the photos.

WildKarrde

First, I'd like to point out that the paint doesn't look as good in person as it does in the pictures. Again, might just be because it's dirty. I'm gonna tell them to detail the car before I look at it next time.

WildKarrde

WildKarrde

It's got quite the soundsystem!!

WildKarrde

yoi probably can't even see the scratch in the picture, but it's very noticable in person. I tried circling it to point out where it was. It's a rather large scratch, will take more than buffing and a touch-up pen to fix.


[EDIT] I missed the long horizontal part of the scratch to the left of the circle.

JConn2299

Yeah, showing your eagerness wasn't a fatal mistake. In the end, it's all about money. If you're
starting your own dealership, then bargaining your way into this car would be good practice.
I haven't run any figures on it, but if you can sleep paying $11k or less for it, then work your deal.
It sounds like they're interested in selling it. They haven't blown you off, so flash the cash and see what happens.

I would run a CarFax on it though. That's always worth it. It'll give you some idea if they're telling the truth about the original ownership and it's always good to find out if the car has some unseemly history. (A friend's girlfriend in NC just bought a truck....after I told her to run a CarFax on it....she didn't......and it turns out the F-150 had been stolen and stripped and was being sold with a rebuilt title. Good luck on reselling that thing.)

I notice some things about the car:

It still has a plastic AST. Either the original...which with 125k on the car would be genuinely scary....or they replaced it with a newer stock one. Either way, something to deal with quickly.

The seat leather isn't new. It's in good condition for the mileage on the car, but it isn't brand new. Those seats have some miles on them. I know. I've watched the creases in mine over the years.

The battery cover is missing and the red cover is off the positive terminal. Nothing major (although I think the cover helps insulate the battery and prolong its life) but in general it's not the kind of engine compartment presentation that would make me ooooo and ahhhh.

I can't see the scratch. If it isn't down all the way through the paint, there are ways to deal with it that can minimize it to the point where you can live with it. I wouldn't let that be a deal killer if you like the rest of the car.

Let us know how things turn out.

JConn2299

A couple of other things about this car. I'm noticing more as I look at the engine compartment.

Check out the hold down clamp on the battery. There are two strips that clamp on the edge of the battery.
They're rusted. They're supposed to be black. Also, it looks like there's surface rust in the upper left hand corner between the engine compartment and the base of the windshield. You say it has a replacement engine. I wonder if this thing wasn't left outside with it's hood up while it was between engines.

This car needs some more investigation before purchase. Start with a CarFax. If there isn't a good rotary mechanic around, maybe one of the more knowledgeable members of this forum would be willing to take a look at it for you.

JConn2299

And are the center caps on the wheels missing? It looks like it. And as you can see, it appears the antenna is sticking and doesn't go all the way down. Yeah, this is far from a primo example. I'm not saying you shouldn't buy it. But I am getting a better idea of why it hasn't sold in 6 months. It definitely needs to be checked out, and at this point, I wouldn't believe what they're telling you unless you can verify it.

joeyz87

Give me the vin i have a couple days left on my 30 unlimited car fax reports I run a report and give it to you. I just bought an fd for 6200. it has junk salvage title, a couple dents and scrapes, I also found industrial strength sealant under the passanger seat. 88k miles on original engine. It runs good so far only had it 2 weeks.

Sled Driver

iTrader: (9)

You were doing so good up to this point.........

Both turbos are actually the same size.

You do understand the what the term "sequential" means, right?

You are either using only one (low rpm, 2-4K) or BOTH (high rpm5-8K).

Otherwise good points & advice.

WildKarrde

I don't think the scratch digs deep into the paint. It's just a real eye-sore when you get up-close to the car. There is a Chrysler/Dodge/Mazda dealer closer to home... I asked them if they had rotory specialists today, and they said they have two, who have gone through the training for the rotory engines, and that they are always on duty. It would cost me $75 to get the car inspected by them. I wasn't worried about the caps, since I'll probably replace them anyway... but it never really registered that they were gone. I'm glad i found this forum, you guys really know what to look for in this car. I've always thought they were "neat" but never seriously researched them until now.

My suspicions have been raised a lot today. Joeyz87, I really appreciate your offer of running the Carfax report for me... I called the dealership right after I read that post, and asked the salesman for the VIN number. He seemed to get defensive, and asked me what I wanted it for. I told him I was going to run a Carfax report. He told me he'd go get it, and to call him back in 5 minutes. I called back in 6 minutes, and waited on the phone for 5 minutes. I gave the receptionist my name, reason for calling, and callback number, and told her to tell him to call me back soon as he got back in. She said she would... but I never got a call. So, either he got lost on their 1 acre carlot, and has yet to make it back in. (This was about 3.5 hours ago now.) Or he honestly forgot. His inquiry into what I wanted the VIN # for makes me think they are hiding something.

Everything I have heard about the dealership before has been good stuff. My suspicion is, (and I have great intuition) that one of the salesman took the car out for a spin, damaged it somehow, got it repaired, and doesn't want the dealership owner to know his car was damaged. My biggest reason for thinking this now is that the salesman told me over and over "It's not that we don't want to sell the car... but" he probably used that line 10 times. The salesman kept trying to get me to buy an RX-8, even though I clearly stated I was interested in the RX-7. And when I talked to the General Manager of the dealership, again the salesman said I looked at the RX-7, and was possibly interested in buying an RX-8. I corrected the salesman, and said I was probably interested in the RX-7, and the GM seemed oblivious to the fact that the paintjob had a huge scratch on it, (I know you can't see it in the picture). He started talking about the restoration the car had gone through, and bragged on how good the paint job is for about 5 minutes. The fact that I called over 3 hours ago for a VIN number... and still don't have one just makes me feel really suspicious, and sort of made me realize other things that seemed fishy about the whole ordeal.

I'll probably meet back up with them in a month or so for a test drive, but unless I get that VIN number, I'm not even going to consider buying it from them... I'll find another one elsewhere. Opinions, anyone?

And does anyone know where I can get a nice RX-7 for a decent price?

94rxrob

iTrader: (1)

You can get a loan for any vehicle if you have good credit. I used Peoplefirst 3 years ago which is now capital one. They had and still have a "blank check loan" good for any year, any mileage vehicle up to your pre-approved amount.

Recently in May, I purchased a vehicle that was listed on ebay. Got financing through ebay financing (HSBC) and that check was also good for any vehicle, any year, any mileage. You may not be able to get financing through your local bank for any vehicle you want, but it can be done.

dgeesaman

iTrader: (7)

I would try to bargain in getting parts for this car at his (dealer) cost.

That would be an awesome fringe benefit, and you'll use it. I assure you, you'll use it.

Dave

JConn2299

WildKarrde, you are still way too trusting. When the GM was bragging on the paint why didn't you bring up the big scratch? It would either be a bargaining tool to get them to lower the price, or you can have them fix it as part of the agreed upon price.

And don't even bother with them for the VIN or a CarFax report. Drive down there to the lot, look in the windshield, write the # down, and take up the generous offer from a forum member.

As to salesmen hotfooting the cars on the lot......a friend of mine is a carsalesman. He tells me he'll take a used car he likes and park it in a hidden part of the lot or the dealership so no one sees it and it won't sell while he drives the **** out of it.

These people aren't dealing too straight with you and there are reasons to think this car isn't a gem. I'd be wary of it unless you can get it at a bargain price.

WildKarrde

Actually, my trust pretty much ran out when the salesman didn't give me the VIN number. I do make it a point to trust people... but I have my limits.

I didn't bring up the scratch because #1, at the time the idea of buying the car hadn't really set in fully, I was still making them feel good about me test driving their RX-8, so I wasn't ready to bargen. And #2, I wanted to see what else he would tell me. It's always better to listen than to talk. The reason I'm not driving out there for the specific reason of getting the VIN number is that round trip it's about 75 miles, and I'd like for my current piece of trash car to last me until I find an RX-7 to buy.

And yes, you pointed out another great thing that I forgot to mention. The fact that the car is parked in the back of the lot. If I hadn't of known it was there from before, then I never would have seen it. This is probably why I was previously unconciously feeling uneasy about it... but I really want an RX-7 now... so I figured I'd persue this one to the end.

I'll still make them an offer... probably around $5,000 or $6,000, maybe I'll go up to $7,000, but I'm not going to make the offer to a salesman, I'm going to make the offer to the owner. He's probably gonna be pretty ticked when he sees what happened to his car... he might just sell it to me so that they can't keep driving it!

Again, thanks to everyone, yall have helped me out a lot... this is probably the most helpful sports car community I've come to. Most of them are a combination of "IT ROCKS, GET IT!" or "it's a piece of trash, I hate it" or "you can't afford it" or some other worthless opinion like that, but they never gave me any REAL information about the cars. I appreciate that here, I'll keep you updated on my persuit.