KDR anti-det device, just spark plug ion sensing ign. and strobe unit?
10-08-03, 10:02 PM
#1
KDR anti-det device, just spark plug ion sensing ign. and strobe unit?
Hmm, so I was thumbing through a "Race Car Engineering" or some such magazine and I happened on an article on spark plug gap ion sensing anti- detonation device (been around for over a decade?) for racing that allow for better mileage during endurance events and how it can FINALLY be used for street cars w/out fear of clogging cats by being combined w/ a strobe unit to delay the ignition instead of cutting it out.
Basically, spark plug gap ion sensing uses an electronic box placed between the ignition trigger and the coil (just like a CDI unit). The box analyzes the ion make-up of the combustion chamber though a standard spark plug gap (actually tests show a "revolutionary new" surface discharge unit w/ large gap and good durability- just like stock rotary plugs- works best for this). There is a very recognizeable ion make-up present in the combustion chamber if the circumstances for detonation exist.
Up to now, in race cars (and production cars that used this feature) the ion sensing box simply stopped the ignition trigger signal from firing the coil. This was not suitable for catalyzed cars as the unburned hydrocarbons would shorten the catalytics life (and these are expensive and warranted for 10 years in USA- hence lower USA RX-8 HP figures and such to save manufacturers $$$ replacing cats).
Now, a simple strobe unit is used in conjuction w/ the ion sensing box to delay the ignition trigger signal to the coil so that it combusts (late) to keep the cats happy
So this sounds like how the KDR unit works- except it is even easier for rotaries as they could keep the leading/trailing split high and then simply cut the leading spark and let the trailing spark late combust the mixture.
KDR may be able to patent the ion sensing device as it pertains to rotary ignition since they are using the new "late burn" idea w/ out having to use the recently patented ion sensing coupled w/ strobe delay.
Their patents would most likely revolve around having trailing split toggle directly off of leading ignition signal (like Haltech) and cutting leading spark while still enabling trailing.
Good luck! Ian
Basically, spark plug gap ion sensing uses an electronic box placed between the ignition trigger and the coil (just like a CDI unit). The box analyzes the ion make-up of the combustion chamber though a standard spark plug gap (actually tests show a "revolutionary new" surface discharge unit w/ large gap and good durability- just like stock rotary plugs- works best for this). There is a very recognizeable ion make-up present in the combustion chamber if the circumstances for detonation exist.
Up to now, in race cars (and production cars that used this feature) the ion sensing box simply stopped the ignition trigger signal from firing the coil. This was not suitable for catalyzed cars as the unburned hydrocarbons would shorten the catalytics life (and these are expensive and warranted for 10 years in USA- hence lower USA RX-8 HP figures and such to save manufacturers $$$ replacing cats).
Now, a simple strobe unit is used in conjuction w/ the ion sensing box to delay the ignition trigger signal to the coil so that it combusts (late) to keep the cats happy
So this sounds like how the KDR unit works- except it is even easier for rotaries as they could keep the leading/trailing split high and then simply cut the leading spark and let the trailing spark late combust the mixture.
KDR may be able to patent the ion sensing device as it pertains to rotary ignition since they are using the new "late burn" idea w/ out having to use the recently patented ion sensing coupled w/ strobe delay.
Their patents would most likely revolve around having trailing split toggle directly off of leading ignition signal (like Haltech) and cutting leading spark while still enabling trailing.
Good luck! Ian
Last edited by BLUE TII; 10-08-03 at 10:04 PM.
10-08-03, 10:14 PM
#2
fart on a friends head!!!
hey, thats pretty interesting. i wonder how much it costs for one of those boxes in a universal application. evidently it only costs like 15.00 at radioshack to make it yourself, but if you hook it up wrong it WILL destroy your engine.
paul
paul
10-08-03, 10:34 PM
#3
Yes, the low cost of actual components, but the importance of dialing in the "brain" to correctly read the ion content seem consistant w/ what people have said of KDR's anti-det device. It would be similar to setting up "filters" for a knock sensor microphone- specific for each combustion chamber shape.
Also, the KDR unit's exhaust "backfires" are consistant w/ how the ion sensing worked in an older "igniton cut" ion sensing unit. They should be able to ignite w/ the trailing, not cut ignition completely, but at idle w/ a rich mix in a rotary crummy combustion chamber shape trailing only misfires are probably inevitable...
Also, the KDR unit's exhaust "backfires" are consistant w/ how the ion sensing worked in an older "igniton cut" ion sensing unit. They should be able to ignite w/ the trailing, not cut ignition completely, but at idle w/ a rich mix in a rotary crummy combustion chamber shape trailing only misfires are probably inevitable...
10-08-03, 10:52 PM
#5
Re: KDR anti-det device, just spark plug ion sensing ign. and strobe unit?
Originally posted by BLUE TII
Hmm, so I was thumbing through a "Race Car Engineering" or some such magazine and I happened on an article on spark plug gap ion sensing anti- detonation device (been around for over a decade?) for racing that allow for better mileage during endurance events and how it can FINALLY be used for street cars w/out fear of clogging cats by being combined w/ a strobe unit to delay the ignition instead of cutting it out.
Basically, spark plug gap ion sensing uses an electronic box placed between the ignition trigger and the coil (just like a CDI unit). The box analyzes the ion make-up of the combustion chamber though a standard spark plug gap (actually tests show a "revolutionary new" surface discharge unit w/ large gap and good durability- just like stock rotary plugs- works best for this). There is a very recognizeable ion make-up present in the combustion chamber if the circumstances for detonation exist.
Up to now, in race cars (and production cars that used this feature) the ion sensing box simply stopped the ignition trigger signal from firing the coil. This was not suitable for catalyzed cars as the unburned hydrocarbons would shorten the catalytics life (and these are expensive and warranted for 10 years in USA- hence lower USA RX-8 HP figures and such to save manufacturers $$$ replacing cats).
Now, a simple strobe unit is used in conjuction w/ the ion sensing box to delay the ignition trigger signal to the coil so that it combusts (late) to keep the cats happy
So this sounds like how the KDR unit works- except it is even easier for rotaries as they could keep the leading/trailing split high and then simply cut the leading spark and let the trailing spark late combust the mixture.
KDR may be able to patent the ion sensing device as it pertains to rotary ignition since they are using the new "late burn" idea w/ out having to use the recently patented ion sensing coupled w/ strobe delay.
Their patents would most likely revolve around having trailing split toggle directly off of leading ignition signal (like Haltech) and cutting leading spark while still enabling trailing.
Good luck! Ian
Hmm, so I was thumbing through a "Race Car Engineering" or some such magazine and I happened on an article on spark plug gap ion sensing anti- detonation device (been around for over a decade?) for racing that allow for better mileage during endurance events and how it can FINALLY be used for street cars w/out fear of clogging cats by being combined w/ a strobe unit to delay the ignition instead of cutting it out.
Basically, spark plug gap ion sensing uses an electronic box placed between the ignition trigger and the coil (just like a CDI unit). The box analyzes the ion make-up of the combustion chamber though a standard spark plug gap (actually tests show a "revolutionary new" surface discharge unit w/ large gap and good durability- just like stock rotary plugs- works best for this). There is a very recognizeable ion make-up present in the combustion chamber if the circumstances for detonation exist.
Up to now, in race cars (and production cars that used this feature) the ion sensing box simply stopped the ignition trigger signal from firing the coil. This was not suitable for catalyzed cars as the unburned hydrocarbons would shorten the catalytics life (and these are expensive and warranted for 10 years in USA- hence lower USA RX-8 HP figures and such to save manufacturers $$$ replacing cats).
Now, a simple strobe unit is used in conjuction w/ the ion sensing box to delay the ignition trigger signal to the coil so that it combusts (late) to keep the cats happy
So this sounds like how the KDR unit works- except it is even easier for rotaries as they could keep the leading/trailing split high and then simply cut the leading spark and let the trailing spark late combust the mixture.
KDR may be able to patent the ion sensing device as it pertains to rotary ignition since they are using the new "late burn" idea w/ out having to use the recently patented ion sensing coupled w/ strobe delay.
Their patents would most likely revolve around having trailing split toggle directly off of leading ignition signal (like Haltech) and cutting leading spark while still enabling trailing.
Good luck! Ian
10-08-03, 10:59 PM
#6
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Sounds like it fits the bill for what Skip initially told me about it. And what he said his car had on it when he was selling it on Ebay. As Jason says, we may have a winner.
10-08-03, 11:12 PM
#7
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SWEET...maybe...how would one go about "tuning" a universal type device? And does anyone know what parts would be needed for this sort of kit...I mean specifically?
Thanks,
-Frost
Thanks,
-Frost
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10-08-03, 11:19 PM
#8
It appears to me the way to "tune" the ion sensing unit is one must use an oscillascope on the ion sensor feedback signal and actually get into mild detonation- what you should see on the scope is a very jagged line (like ignition break-up on a dyno chart).
Any volunteers? Just pay for the dialed in KDR unit!
Any volunteers? Just pay for the dialed in KDR unit!
10-08-03, 11:33 PM
#9
Just found a site about the old Saab ion sensing sytem before the newer idea of the strobe delay-
http://www.fs.isy.liu.se/~larer/Projects/main.html
I haven't really read up on this system much either.
Another method of measuring peak combustion chamber pressures is the use of a piezo pressure sensor between the spark plug and the engine. Better than a knock sensor mic, but not as good as ion sensing!
http://www.fs.isy.liu.se/~larer/Projects/main.html
I haven't really read up on this system much either.
Another method of measuring peak combustion chamber pressures is the use of a piezo pressure sensor between the spark plug and the engine. Better than a knock sensor mic, but not as good as ion sensing!
10-08-03, 11:46 PM
#10
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Originally posted by BLUE TII
It appears to me the way to "tune" the ion sensing unit is one must use an oscillascope on the ion sensor feedback signal and actually get into mild detonation- what you should see on the scope is a very jagged line (like ignition break-up on a dyno chart).
Any volunteers? Just pay for the dialed in KDR unit!
It appears to me the way to "tune" the ion sensing unit is one must use an oscillascope on the ion sensor feedback signal and actually get into mild detonation- what you should see on the scope is a very jagged line (like ignition break-up on a dyno chart).
Any volunteers? Just pay for the dialed in KDR unit!
10-09-03, 12:19 AM
#11
Hmm, that link I left was a good read.
One thing that stood out for me was how the Saab info stressed how well a full closed loop ion sensing system works w/ humidity changes (tested w/ HVLP paint gun "water injection"- pretty ghetto for Saab...).
So, if you have a closed loop system using timed multiple ion sampling incorporating ion sensed peak pressure for ADVANCE as well ion sensing anti-detonation for RETARD you can REALLY benifit from water injection as the spark will be automatically advanced to suit the differing peak pressures and burn rates of water injection= MORE TORQUE, safely and seamlessly.
One thing that stood out for me was how the Saab info stressed how well a full closed loop ion sensing system works w/ humidity changes (tested w/ HVLP paint gun "water injection"- pretty ghetto for Saab...).
So, if you have a closed loop system using timed multiple ion sampling incorporating ion sensed peak pressure for ADVANCE as well ion sensing anti-detonation for RETARD you can REALLY benifit from water injection as the spark will be automatically advanced to suit the differing peak pressures and burn rates of water injection= MORE TORQUE, safely and seamlessly.
10-09-03, 12:24 AM
#12
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Makes sense, Skip told me that the device is based on technology that has been around for a while, just not for the rotary. My car is getting the mod on Monday, of course I don't expect the car back for at least a week plus. Expect to hear from me when I get it back and after I see the dyno sheets and after I run 87 octane for a while.
10-09-03, 12:27 AM
#13
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I was thinking it was this..
http://www.startube.com/
There was a thread debating it a while ago and it seemed to fit the bill as well.
http://www.startube.com/
There was a thread debating it a while ago and it seemed to fit the bill as well.
10-09-03, 12:51 AM
#14
Senior Member
It seems everyone has one. There are HEAPS of patents already on them. Here's hitachi's anti-det device:
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-P...S=PN/5,396,176
Just a thought but this would explain why the rx-8 suddenly copped a huge hit in processing power over normal passenger cars. The ECU they use is like a supercomputer compared to the pre-286 clones we have in the FD's.
-pete
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-P...S=PN/5,396,176
Just a thought but this would explain why the rx-8 suddenly copped a huge hit in processing power over normal passenger cars. The ECU they use is like a supercomputer compared to the pre-286 clones we have in the FD's.
-pete
10-09-03, 01:03 AM
#15
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The 8 basically has a super computer so that the Renesis can meet emmisions requirements, with a longer life than our poor little motors. Well, that and they got rid of a few vacuum tubes 
Back on topic... That sounds somewhat like what I have been told, but my source told me the technology has been around for more like 30 years; not 10.
Back on topic... That sounds somewhat like what I have been told, but my source told me the technology has been around for more like 30 years; not 10.
10-09-03, 01:52 AM
#16
From the very little I have read on this so far it appears basic ionic sensing has been used for several decades to detect misfires and then later knock, but the advent of using multiple timed ionic sampling to detect all features of combustion (peak pressure, misfire, smouldering, detonation, etc) and base ignition maps on feedback is more like a decade old.
Just imagine a 1970s processor unit capable of what the (1990) Hitachi unit or even Saab unit processes. It wouldn't fit under any hood...
Just imagine a 1970s processor unit capable of what the (1990) Hitachi unit or even Saab unit processes. It wouldn't fit under any hood...
10-09-03, 09:36 AM
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Ion sensing is indeed not new, but SAAB have been sitting on the key patents for many years now. The fact that many of the patents have no expired, coupled with the fact the SAAB is now part of GM and the latest laws on emissions mean that OEMs will be forced to install ION sensing ignitions.
However the OEM focus is on lean misfire detection, not peak power, but this is not a problem as the technology is perfect for our needs.
The KDR system sounds like a level 1. Its a knock detection system that acutally cuts in before damaging knock occurs, but its not the full monty auto correcting stuff. But a step in the right direction nonetheless
However the OEM focus is on lean misfire detection, not peak power, but this is not a problem as the technology is perfect for our needs.
The KDR system sounds like a level 1. Its a knock detection system that acutally cuts in before damaging knock occurs, but its not the full monty auto correcting stuff. But a step in the right direction nonetheless
10-09-03, 12:18 PM
#20
Ion sensing is indeed not new, but SAAB have been sitting on the key patents for many years now. The fact that many of the patents have no expired, coupled with the fact the SAAB is now part of GM and the latest laws on emissions mean that OEMs will be forced to install ION sensing ignitions.
Cats must be fully warranted by OEMs for 10 years in the US and cost a lot- so until the strobe ignition delay for detonation prevention it wasn't going to happen in the US.
However the OEM focus is on lean misfire detection, not peak power, but this is not a problem as the technology is perfect for our needs.
The KDR system sounds like a level 1. Its a knock detection system that acutally cuts in before damaging knock occurs, but its not the full monty auto correcting stuff. But a step in the right direction nonetheless
If they can get some key patents on making the system work for a rotary by toggling trailing split off leading signal and cutting leading while still firing trailing that would be good for them.
Then if a more technical company picked up the idea and developed a full closed loop system, that would be good for us.
10-09-03, 12:23 PM
#21
2/4 wheel cornering fiend
Originally posted by BLUE TII
Hmm, that link I left was a good read.
One thing that stood out for me was how the Saab info stressed how well a full closed loop ion sensing system works w/ humidity changes (tested w/ HVLP paint gun "water injection"- pretty ghetto for Saab...).
So, if you have a closed loop system using timed multiple ion sampling incorporating ion sensed peak pressure for ADVANCE as well ion sensing anti-detonation for RETARD you can REALLY benifit from water injection as the spark will be automatically advanced to suit the differing peak pressures and burn rates of water injection= MORE TORQUE, safely and seamlessly.
Hmm, that link I left was a good read.
One thing that stood out for me was how the Saab info stressed how well a full closed loop ion sensing system works w/ humidity changes (tested w/ HVLP paint gun "water injection"- pretty ghetto for Saab...).
So, if you have a closed loop system using timed multiple ion sampling incorporating ion sensed peak pressure for ADVANCE as well ion sensing anti-detonation for RETARD you can REALLY benifit from water injection as the spark will be automatically advanced to suit the differing peak pressures and burn rates of water injection= MORE TORQUE, safely and seamlessly.
10-09-03, 12:41 PM
#22
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Re: Re: KDR anti-det device, just spark plug ion sensing ign. and strobe unit?
Originally posted by Jason
BINGO We have a winner
BINGO We have a winner
As mentioned, most of the work is in proper installation and tuning.
Do that wrong and u'll be in a world of hurt.
*puts BLUE TII on the smart guy list*
10-09-03, 12:43 PM
#23
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Originally posted by BicuspiD
I was thinking it was this..
http://www.startube.com/
There was a thread debating it a while ago and it seemed to fit the bill as well.
I was thinking it was this..
http://www.startube.com/
There was a thread debating it a while ago and it seemed to fit the bill as well.
That can be implemented for the car too.
Little here and there can really help our cars out...........
10-09-03, 01:31 PM
#24
Well since we now know what it is, how does it affect future tuning? Would any shop that tunes aftermarket ecu's be able to tune with this device already installed if a person decided to further upgrade their 7? Or does it have to go back and be tuned at the shop that installed the anti-det device?
Edit: Batman, do you possibly know how reliable this thing is.
Edit: Batman, do you possibly know how reliable this thing is.
10-09-03, 01:41 PM
#25
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Pretty Good Research!
Nice work BLUE TII, nice work indeed. This is definitely going to be a great aid in tuning. If KDR manages to get this deployed before next years race season, I'm sure to see a crap load of RX-7's giving the Supra's boys a hard time. .