Individual Spark Plug Coil Packs ??
09-23-09, 01:21 AM
#1
Individual Spark Plug Coil Packs ??
Hi all, I have a question for which I couldn't find any answers on the forum.
I am rebuilding my engine AGAIN!
because it had detonation supposedly from the Coils being old or the Spark plug wires being old (too much resistance) and making the coil fire on a different path instead of thru the spark plug wires.
Anyway, the engine builder told me that if I want it, a nice upgrade I could do would be to install the individual Coil Packs that go on each Spark Plug like on the Mazdaspeed Mazda 3 and the RX8 if I am not mistaken.
That way I will still have a very hot spark without the need for the wires.
It does sound like a very nice alternative and maybe even cheaper than replacing all the coils and the wires.
I just wanted to know if there is any known issue with them against putting them on FD's ??
Thank you very much for your insight...
Leo
I am rebuilding my engine AGAIN!
because it had detonation supposedly from the Coils being old or the Spark plug wires being old (too much resistance) and making the coil fire on a different path instead of thru the spark plug wires. Anyway, the engine builder told me that if I want it, a nice upgrade I could do would be to install the individual Coil Packs that go on each Spark Plug like on the Mazdaspeed Mazda 3 and the RX8 if I am not mistaken.
That way I will still have a very hot spark without the need for the wires.
It does sound like a very nice alternative and maybe even cheaper than replacing all the coils and the wires.
I just wanted to know if there is any known issue with them against putting them on FD's ??
Thank you very much for your insight...
Leo
09-24-09, 01:26 PM
#6
GM coils...
Yes I heard that the GM coils are pretty good and can be used on the FD.
As for blowing the engine, the guy says that it seems like the spark jumped form the coil to the base of the coil and could have travel all the way to the area of the combustion chamber and ignite the mix out of phase or could have jumped from the tip of the coil to the base where the "trigger" for the coil is and make it trigger again and shoot a spark again out of phase. All that after some miles causing slow detonation that finally destroyed the Apex seals. (around 1000 miles)
I know it is possible but I dont know if the possibility is way too small but the guy is a very reputable Rotary builder.
So if someone has an insight??
The engine had all the upgrades needed for a high HP rotary but the only things that were still stock were the coils and the spark plug wires were good high performance ones but old. After that, they checked the resistance of the wires and it was pretty bad.
Thanks for your comments...
Leo
As for blowing the engine, the guy says that it seems like the spark jumped form the coil to the base of the coil and could have travel all the way to the area of the combustion chamber and ignite the mix out of phase or could have jumped from the tip of the coil to the base where the "trigger" for the coil is and make it trigger again and shoot a spark again out of phase. All that after some miles causing slow detonation that finally destroyed the Apex seals. (around 1000 miles)
I know it is possible but I dont know if the possibility is way too small but the guy is a very reputable Rotary builder.
So if someone has an insight??
The engine had all the upgrades needed for a high HP rotary but the only things that were still stock were the coils and the spark plug wires were good high performance ones but old. After that, they checked the resistance of the wires and it was pretty bad.
Thanks for your comments...
Leo
09-24-09, 01:55 PM
#7
Links to other forums aren't allowed, but I think he has it on nopistons and ausrotary. Just look for riceracing posts. It might be mixed in with another thread of his, if you cant find it drop me an email cause I'm pretty sure pete PM'ed me the link.
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09-24-09, 05:42 PM
#10
weak coils cause ignition breakup (hesitation, misfire). but blown motors? that's a stretch. Probably just an overly aggressive tune caused the problem.
If you really want to upgrade the coils, switch to the FC (2nd gen) system. They are a lot stronger and are much closer to the FD in design (wastespark for leading)
If you really want to upgrade the coils, switch to the FC (2nd gen) system. They are a lot stronger and are much closer to the FD in design (wastespark for leading)
09-24-09, 11:16 PM
#11
Ok weak coils can not blow up an engine, but what about a strong coil that has old connections or slightly cracked plastic surrounding the connection with the wire or very bad wires that have too much resistance?
Can it shoot a spark that travels a different path instead of the wire and make the mixture ignite at a slightly different time causing the apex seals to break after a period of around 1000 miles?
The engine builder was trying to show me what he thought could be the culprit to the problem and was some marks on the coil neck where it meets the wire boot. He said that sometimes you can really see the path that the spark is traveling and leaves a mark that can not be cleaned. (kinda like a lightning bolt) I just forgot the name of it.
But all he found was just some discoloration on the tip of the neck ( I don't know if the section where the coil meets the wire has a name) on both the trailing coils.
The engine , to give a small idea, is a half bridge port, GT35R turbo, Twin power ignition, 850cc and 1600 cc injectors, PFS SMIC, big dual oil coolers, koyo radiator, 2 supra pumps, 4" exhaust right after the downpipe, water/meth injection, etc.
So the engine was a new rebuild and was already broken in. I have 2 settings for the boost, low one up to only 12 PSI and doesnt use the Water/meth and the high one that uses the meth and goes to 18 PSI.
The car did 428 whp on a mustang dyno at 18 PSI.
The first time they built the engine, it blew up on the dyno at about 1000 miles. Same crap, apex seals.
Now it was running fine and I picked it up. I used it for about a week and a half and used the high setting only twice for 4 seconds. the rest of the time I used the low setting and actually only did about 5 or 6 WOT pulls for about 10 seconds.
That day I was just cruising and started accelerating fast on third gear and around 6500 rpm, and 11 PSI, the car just gave and started working on 1 rotor. And that was the end of it.
I am really annoyed because the first time I had to pay for the removal and installation of the engine (not the rebuild) but now if it was the coils or plugs, I will have to pay for everything.
So if someone has an idea if the coils or plugs can cause something like these please respond on this thread.
I know there are many very knowledgeable people here (Gurus if you wanna hear the term again) that can chime in with some interesting idea or experience regarding the matter.
I will post this on the Single turbo section with a link to this thread since I am using a single turbo.
Thank you very much for any help...
Leo
Can it shoot a spark that travels a different path instead of the wire and make the mixture ignite at a slightly different time causing the apex seals to break after a period of around 1000 miles?
The engine builder was trying to show me what he thought could be the culprit to the problem and was some marks on the coil neck where it meets the wire boot. He said that sometimes you can really see the path that the spark is traveling and leaves a mark that can not be cleaned. (kinda like a lightning bolt) I just forgot the name of it.
But all he found was just some discoloration on the tip of the neck ( I don't know if the section where the coil meets the wire has a name) on both the trailing coils.
The engine , to give a small idea, is a half bridge port, GT35R turbo, Twin power ignition, 850cc and 1600 cc injectors, PFS SMIC, big dual oil coolers, koyo radiator, 2 supra pumps, 4" exhaust right after the downpipe, water/meth injection, etc.
So the engine was a new rebuild and was already broken in. I have 2 settings for the boost, low one up to only 12 PSI and doesnt use the Water/meth and the high one that uses the meth and goes to 18 PSI.
The car did 428 whp on a mustang dyno at 18 PSI.
The first time they built the engine, it blew up on the dyno at about 1000 miles. Same crap, apex seals.
Now it was running fine and I picked it up. I used it for about a week and a half and used the high setting only twice for 4 seconds. the rest of the time I used the low setting and actually only did about 5 or 6 WOT pulls for about 10 seconds.
That day I was just cruising and started accelerating fast on third gear and around 6500 rpm, and 11 PSI, the car just gave and started working on 1 rotor. And that was the end of it.
I am really annoyed because the first time I had to pay for the removal and installation of the engine (not the rebuild) but now if it was the coils or plugs, I will have to pay for everything.
So if someone has an idea if the coils or plugs can cause something like these please respond on this thread.
I know there are many very knowledgeable people here (Gurus if you wanna hear the term again) that can chime in with some interesting idea or experience regarding the matter.
I will post this on the Single turbo section with a link to this thread since I am using a single turbo.
Thank you very much for any help...
Leo
09-24-09, 11:23 PM
#12
Actually I will place a link to the other thread here for anyone that wants to chime in regarding the problem I had with the engine.
https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...40#post9519440
As for the people that have some suggestions or comments regarding the Coil on Plug option for the FD, you can still do it on this thread.
Thank you very much.
Leo
https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...40#post9519440
As for the people that have some suggestions or comments regarding the Coil on Plug option for the FD, you can still do it on this thread.
Thank you very much.
Leo
09-25-09, 04:32 AM
#13
I'm doing a COP instal on another project. One thing to watch for is some of the late COP coils have built in triggers. The ECM's only need to drive the triggers and the high amp draws are wired separately. Also need to ensure not to mix the peak and hold injectors with the high impedance injectors (you probably already knew this). Regardless, need to make sure the coils are compatable with your drivers.
09-25-09, 12:03 PM
#14
Thanks a lot ttmott, I will have to find some Coil On plugs that work with the system. Do you have a specific brand that you are going to use? Or maybe a list of compatible ones?
Like someone said earlier, the GM's seem to be ok and thats what the builder told me.
Thanks again...
Leo
Like someone said earlier, the GM's seem to be ok and thats what the builder told me.
Thanks again...
Leo
09-25-09, 06:29 PM
#16
All I see on the Okada website is the Plasma for the RX8 unfortunately. And for what I know the RX8 coils are much weaker than the FD ones. And specially my car that is making around 500 whp will be far from the 190 whp (to the wheels) of the RX8, so even upgraded ones may still be too weak.
Thanks though.
Leo
Thanks though.
Leo
09-25-09, 09:08 PM
#17
http://www.okadaprojects.com/usa/products_booster.htm this has a version made for the 13B-REW
09-26-09, 02:44 AM
#18
Thanks for the reply Hitokiri but what they sell is the ignition amplifier and I already have the Apexi Twin power. What I am trying to find is info on the Coil on Plug system, the one that has the coil right at the end of the Spark Plug. No Spark Plug wires necessary.
Leo
Leo
09-26-09, 02:57 AM
#19
I think your chasing the wrong thing. Ton's of people use stock coils with the twin power. If the the spark is arcing somewhere else, you have other electrical issues. Assuming the theory was correct that the wires were causing too much resistance, why don't you change the wires to ones that don't cause as much?
thewird
thewird
09-26-09, 03:02 AM
#20
Sorry for the misunderstanding...
Ok the problem is that the thread has gone out of the original path and I am partly responsible for that.
The original idea behind this thread was to find out of the feasibility of doing the COP system on the FD and if so, which coils to use.
I know that I can solve my problem with new coils and new wires but since I heard about the other possibility and sounded easy, cleaner and even cheaper, then I thought I would ask.
Sorry if I gave the wrong impression. Im just trying to find which COP's could be used on the FD.
Leo
The original idea behind this thread was to find out of the feasibility of doing the COP system on the FD and if so, which coils to use.
I know that I can solve my problem with new coils and new wires but since I heard about the other possibility and sounded easy, cleaner and even cheaper, then I thought I would ask.
Sorry if I gave the wrong impression. Im just trying to find which COP's could be used on the FD.
Leo
09-26-09, 06:26 AM
#22
COP really is not very feasable for the rotary configuration as there is nothing to support the coils off of the plugs. They will extend probably all the way to the strut tower and frame rails. What is needed is Coil Near Plug which is much like the stock configuration. The stock configuration uses three coils in which two drive individual plugs and one uses the waste spark technology with one coil driving two plugs.
Using the GM coil near plug style with aftermarket drivers will provide significantly higher spark heat however don't know if the higher joule output will benefit with the style of plugs used in the RX motors. If it does work benefits in low end torque and high RPM ignition stability will be apparent.
For sure the stock ECM cannot drive four coils for a aftermarket coil near plug configuration (only three outputs and you would smoke something). So if you have an aftermarket ECM that can drive four coils you will require a trigger which the RX has and separate drivers. MSD Digital 7 with the separate drivers can work but you would loose the intellegence of the ECM; Maybe you could work a modified situation to use the aftermarket ECM with the MSD drivers. HALTEK, FAST, Big Stuff Three and others have great ECM's that drive both COP and Coil Near Plug configurations. I can't comment on Apexi but maybe it can be configured also... Regardless you would have significant time just in getting the software to work right.
Using the GM coil near plug style with aftermarket drivers will provide significantly higher spark heat however don't know if the higher joule output will benefit with the style of plugs used in the RX motors. If it does work benefits in low end torque and high RPM ignition stability will be apparent.
For sure the stock ECM cannot drive four coils for a aftermarket coil near plug configuration (only three outputs and you would smoke something). So if you have an aftermarket ECM that can drive four coils you will require a trigger which the RX has and separate drivers. MSD Digital 7 with the separate drivers can work but you would loose the intellegence of the ECM; Maybe you could work a modified situation to use the aftermarket ECM with the MSD drivers. HALTEK, FAST, Big Stuff Three and others have great ECM's that drive both COP and Coil Near Plug configurations. I can't comment on Apexi but maybe it can be configured also... Regardless you would have significant time just in getting the software to work right.
09-26-09, 11:48 AM
#24
Coil on plug setup for rotary engine. The coils are dynatek miniature series 0.5 ohm, look to be made for motorcycles. A good motorcycle coil seems like it would work well. High revving with high output spark. Here's what I "think" are in the picture below (click to view link)
09-26-09, 01:47 PM
#25
Awesome setup!
Thanks everybody for the input. Yes you are right, it seems I was a little mistaken about the price because I was not taking into account the fact of having to have a possible new trigger and the fact that the Apexi Power FC seems not too be able to drive 4 individual coils and correct appropriately.
The last setup showed by Dudemaaanownsanrx7 is pretty cool and what I was expecting to do. The problem will be to find the system to drive that, the crank trigger (can the stock one do it? I heard it doesnt).
So I guess I will have to think about a nice setup but not for this time.
I will have to check on the MSD Blasters and new stock coils and see what is better.
Thanks a lot for the help everyone.
The last setup showed by Dudemaaanownsanrx7 is pretty cool and what I was expecting to do. The problem will be to find the system to drive that, the crank trigger (can the stock one do it? I heard it doesnt).
So I guess I will have to think about a nice setup but not for this time.
I will have to check on the MSD Blasters and new stock coils and see what is better.
Thanks a lot for the help everyone.