Crazy_Jake

I've done pretty much every bolt-on mod to my car except an aftermarket intercooler. I know it's a great reliabilty mod but I was just curious as to how much more hp do you gain from an intercooler upgrade? There can't be that much difference in hp between front-mount, horizontal-mount, v-mount, or stock location replacement. But in general I've heard as much as 30hp. Of course this is all relevant to boost pressure. Which leads me to another question; how much more boost can you run without fear of detonation with an intercooler installed?

Mahjik

iTrader: (1)

As much as you have fuel for....

ttb

thought an intercooler doesn't add hp, just allows you to run more boost, which adds hp...

mmonaco

Wait, putting more air molecules into you engine by making them colder and closer together dosent give you any more hp? I Dont know if i agree with that comment, but yes the main benifit is from raising the boost. Cant say for sure how much hp gained. from same boost and just a intercooler.

ttb

yea, that's what i meant to say..ic is mainly for increasing boost

mmonaco

I was just clearing that up for him.

mmonaco

I would say about 10 hp from just a FMIC, i may be wrong tho.

BNA_ELLIS

You can expect witha a good intercooler approx 20 hp increase. If you don't have one already. You will need an aftermarket ecu, or if you have one alreday you will need it re-tweaked to allow more fuel into engine, to make up for the increase in air being allowed into the engine so you don't run lean. Even without raising the boost, you will experience a significant increase in power, if you buy a decent intercooler. This is because the cooler the air the more dense the air is. The more dense the air is = the more air you can compact into a given area + right amount of fuel to stop detonation + spark form spark plugs = a much greater explosion=
a greater increase in horsepower. Thats all without having touched the boost pressure..

Regards

Brian

maxcooper

It has a number of effects. Cooler air going into the engine will increase HP. If it flows better than the IC it replaced (less pressure drop), you will also get some more power from reduced backpressure as the turbos don't need to work as hard to give you the same manifold pressure. Note that the ECU can account for the first effect (cooler temps) but needs to be retuned for the second effect (flow). Note also that pressure drop does not show up on your boost gauge, as it refers to the drop in pressure across the IC and not a change in boost pressure from installing an IC.

I would guess that you would get a 10-20 HP increase or so for an FD that has been upgraded in the commonly recommended order. I was surprised how much difference it made on my car.

-Max

JspecFD

iTrader: (2)

Just by changing my stock IC to an M2 med IC, I got an additional 27rwhp not to mention adding significant torque throughout the rev range. With the less restrictive IC, I saw an additional 1psi at the manifold.

My results correlate well with the tests that SCC did as well as others. Thus, most hp gains come from improved IC efficiencies and not from increasing boost. Here's another data point from M2's site comparing a stage 2 to stage 3 setup(only difference is stage 3 adds an IC)

rx7tt95

Was any tuning done to get that 27hp difference? The reason I ask is because I tested three intercoolers all on the same day, same car, same dyno. The three were: stock, M2 Medium and Crooked Willow's unit. All three were within 5hp of one and other. Out of the three the CWR made the most hp by 3hp.

Under "load", i.e. the car is moving, I can see an IC making a difference with the cooler charge, otherwise, the stock IC isn't really that restrictive. Removing restriction will gain hp when the car is static. Simply swapping in an IC will not yield large gains. I've posted the dyno sheet with all three runs on the forum. All three were made with the IC's at air temp, no ice. All were "cold" and not heat soaked.
Michel

matty

my m2 med made a big difference...i cant go WOT in 2 nd gear without breaking the tires loose when the secondary comes on.

JspecFD

iTrader: (2)

Nope, no tuning was done and I was using the exact same ECU both times(M2 upgraded).

inukai

Hi

Popular mods in Japan

Air cleaner + Down and Mid pipe + Good exhaust +
ECU (boost up) + Spark plugs, then 310 HP

Plus SMIC , then 340 - 350 HP

or Plus FMIC , then 370 - 390 HP

That depends IC.

matty

boost up to what to produce 310hp? your are speaking in rwhp, right?

Crazy_Jake

who makes the best intercooler cores?

rx7tt95

I'll stick by my statement...you will not see a 27hp increase by swapping out the stock IC with the M2 or any other for that matter...on a dyno. I would politely suggest that some information is being left out or there was something seriously wrong with your stock intercooler core. People have run LOW 12's, high 11's with the stock IC. I was once told, back in my "naive" days, by a certain West Penn club member that a PFS IC would give me 40hp on a dyno. Riiiighttt....I'm sure you're legitimate JSpec, but I will add that the testing was done for an article and as such, great lengths were taken to equalize all the tests.

Because a larger IC is more efficient at removing heat from the intake charge, one can run more boost without running the risk of detonation. Thermal efficiency. That's where the hp comes from. Not from the IC design itself. It doesn't work like an intake or midpipe which increases VE. This is why you will not see a 20hp jump on a dyno by just swapping in an IC.

As far as core design, I think most will say you can't go wrong with a properly sized Spearco core. M2/CWR/Pettit/PFS all use Spearco cores.

My only suggestion would be to purchase any of the above and do your own test on the dyno, at the same boost level and report back to the list.
Michel

JspecFD

iTrader: (2)

Already been done repeatedly both by myself and others. You're merely stating an opinion which, without factual support, is meaningless. BTW, you repeatedly keep missing the technicality that rwhp is being compared. I'll get to your flawed support later...

Nope, guess again. If you knew anything about who Ivan is, you wouldn't make such an easy mistake. I find it very telling that you have a predisposition for assuming your opinion is correct without challenging your own assumptions(logical flaw in your reasoning)

Its very revealing that you didn't even bother challenging the data provided from both SCC tests and M2 tests especially when they correlate my results. Just from recent memory(from the Big List), there was an online article on modding an FD from an Australian magazine as well as a list member who did stock IC/PFS IC dyno tests at different boost settings.

Thats 5 different cars and 5 different tests, each of which support each other. Having spent nearly 8 years on the Big List, there's other examples out there as well if you search.

I don't think you have posted such a sheet to the forum and challenge you to provide a link to it. A search revealed you referencing these numbers in other posts with conflicting results(apparently you can't keep your numbers straight). The closest match was a dyno sheet you posted comparing the stock IC to the CWC. By your own admittance, no IC ducting was in place making your data worthless. You might want to consider doing some basic research on IC ducting and how an IC functions. Casting even more doubt on your test results, you used a Clayton dyno and previously admitted to some spurious results.


Irrelevent. Wyum got high 10's with an upgraded IC. Maybe you should talk to him since his IC research/knowledge far exceeds anything you've done.

I don't think those 'days' of yours have ended. The two of you seem to derive conclusions in a similar fashion.

Thats really sad then. You apparently lack any technical degree/background if you think testing one car is sufficient. Whats worse, you do no research to confirm your test results with others which would lend support to your conclusions. Instead, you ignore them even though your results are in contradiction with real magazine articles
such as from SCC.

Just because some 'article' was posted at some online website doesn't mean its worth anything let alone be representative of professional journalism(rank amateurs are actually the norm on the 'net)

Again, you really should've done some basic research. Reading Corky's Bell book would be a good start so you can understand some IC fundamentals. In brief, there's 2 areas where performance is easily gained over the stock IC. First of all, tests have proven that the stock IC acts as a restriction. Secondly, you seem oblivious to the fact that even at the same boost pressure and airflow, a more efficient IC will provide a denser charge of air that allows more power potential.

Still, if you want to live a sheltered world where you can ignore tests like those from SCC and others, thats your choice. As for me, I know my car made an additional 27rwhp just by adding the M2 IC. Got the sheets(from ATP in Fremont), vids, and witnesses and what you 'think' can't change that. Seeing identical results from both my car and SCC tests, you could say a picture is worth a thousand words and puts everything in perspective.

BNA_ELLIS

Please excuse my ignorance what is the big list ??? anyone

rallimike

iTrader: (1)

I, too, would like to know how to access the 'big list'

matty

i stoped receiving the biglist ths weekend...did this happenn to anyone else?

matty

sorry guys i forgot how to join the list..do a search on yahoo.

matty

http://www.scuderiaciriani.com/rx7/m..._list.html#SUB

blackscorpio

hey intercooler does not make power, the engine does

cover8

JspecFD:

Very refreshing to see a structured argument. I do have a technical degree and value your input greatly. Unfortunately, members get too "emotionally" attached to their opinions err arguments to separate themselves in order to "...challenge your own assumptions."

I find it laughable the statements I read in this forum that are completely irresponsible and unfounded.

Hey, JspecFD keep hammerin' 'em. Maybe you can motivate them read "Statistics for Dummies" or "Critical Thinking for Dummies." Force 'em to concentrate on determining the difference between causation and association.