Hottest air and water temp at the track
11-14-03, 03:32 PM
#26
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holy crap, i'd freak out if i owned any of your cars! i won't boost my car if intake temps are anywhere near 60*F and i will baby my car if water temps hit 95*C, which is the highest it's ever been. i just hate the thought of anything getting any hotter than that
11-14-03, 05:05 PM
#27
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Originally posted by spoolin93r1
i will baby my car if water temps hit 95*C
i will baby my car if water temps hit 95*C
Too many FD guys think is their coolant isn't ice water that the car is overheating
11-14-03, 06:32 PM
#29
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Originally posted by spoolin93r1
holy crap, i'd freak out if i owned any of your cars! i won't boost my car if intake temps are anywhere near 60*F and i will baby my car if water temps hit 95*C, which is the highest it's ever been. i just hate the thought of anything getting any hotter than that
holy crap, i'd freak out if i owned any of your cars! i won't boost my car if intake temps are anywhere near 60*F and i will baby my car if water temps hit 95*C, which is the highest it's ever been. i just hate the thought of anything getting any hotter than that
If your car is harmed from 60C intake temps, then there's something wrong. The PFC (and stock ecu most likely) does retard timing when the intake temps get hotter....your maps shouldn't be tuned so close to the ragged edge that 60C intakes temps cause harm.
11-14-03, 07:47 PM
#30
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I guess I wasn't really that concern since if the motor dies, I'll rebuild it and be ready within few days. My thinking was that, w/o the PFC to monitor AIT and WT, anybody running stock car can potentially harm the engine after 10-15min of lap time. Don't you agree?
Stephen, I wasn't sure what causes what first, I had a passenger with me that wants to take a ride and he was suppose to monitor everything and let me know when the WT gets above 115C. I failed to ask him to monitor the AIT when we were at the track. The only reason I stayed on it after 115C was because I was trying to catch this one guy that was on race tires since I told him I would give him the handicap of running kuhmo street tires (worst I have use) to keep up or pass him
It took 1 lap to jump from 115C to 119C. I let off and coasted for 3 laps before I leave the track.
I have been road racing on and off for 13 yrs, I have also been instructing in road course for a few clubs for 3-4 yrs. I think I know the limitations on what is considered harmful. I think AIT is kinda high and WT is right at the limit. As long as you keep the car running to let it cool down, you really can't damage anything, its those people who freaked out of the WT and shuts the engine off that harms the motor. If i pull the plug at 110C, I'll be lucky to get 4-5 laps per session.
Stephen, I wasn't sure what causes what first, I had a passenger with me that wants to take a ride and he was suppose to monitor everything and let me know when the WT gets above 115C. I failed to ask him to monitor the AIT when we were at the track. The only reason I stayed on it after 115C was because I was trying to catch this one guy that was on race tires since I told him I would give him the handicap of running kuhmo street tires (worst I have use) to keep up or pass him
It took 1 lap to jump from 115C to 119C. I let off and coasted for 3 laps before I leave the track. I have been road racing on and off for 13 yrs, I have also been instructing in road course for a few clubs for 3-4 yrs. I think I know the limitations on what is considered harmful. I think AIT is kinda high and WT is right at the limit. As long as you keep the car running to let it cool down, you really can't damage anything, its those people who freaked out of the WT and shuts the engine off that harms the motor. If i pull the plug at 110C, I'll be lucky to get 4-5 laps per session.
11-15-03, 08:13 AM
#34
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As usual, I concur completely with Crispy. To further elaborate...
Straight from Mazda Comp:
Mazda Comp Recommended Temps
That said, I personally set the warning indicators on my gauges set at 230F for water and 250F for oil temps.
For those of you using Evans, remember that oil temps will lead water temps by upwards of 40F degrees (depending on the efficiency of your setup.) Therefore, running the higher temps may also be taking a significant toll on your lube systems (i.e stationary/rotor/turbo bearings.)
Personally, with the usual big IC and proper ducting, I've target 15-20F higher that ambient for a proper IC setup. Unfortunately Steve, I think you're going to pay a heavy price (with regards to power and control system efficiency) when using a stock IC on the track. Definitely would set no higher that 60F above ambient as an absolute.
Straight from Mazda Comp:
Mazda Comp Recommended Temps
That said, I personally set the warning indicators on my gauges set at 230F for water and 250F for oil temps.
For those of you using Evans, remember that oil temps will lead water temps by upwards of 40F degrees (depending on the efficiency of your setup.) Therefore, running the higher temps may also be taking a significant toll on your lube systems (i.e stationary/rotor/turbo bearings.)
Personally, with the usual big IC and proper ducting, I've target 15-20F higher that ambient for a proper IC setup. Unfortunately Steve, I think you're going to pay a heavy price (with regards to power and control system efficiency) when using a stock IC on the track. Definitely would set no higher that 60F above ambient as an absolute.
Last edited by carlos@the-rotary.net; 11-15-03 at 08:24 AM.
11-15-03, 08:31 AM
#35
The Man
I think Steve' s main question was geared toward the average owner. Since he runs a shop and business he is aware of the damage potential, but was trying to see what most "tracked" cars were averaging and high temps they were seeing, perhaps to develop some improved cooling techniques/products! Correct me if I'm wrong Steve.
Art
Art
11-16-03, 06:21 AM
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i never thought i was too over cautious, but i guess maybe i have been. i have atuo-x'ed my car before and drag raced a whole lot, and have yet to exceed 95*C water temp and i don't think my air temp has ever been over 55*C while competing. Jason at the rx7store gave me one of his maps and i straightened the fuel curve out on the dyno. so i'm not even close to hitting an area to where i'd need to be concerned?
11-16-03, 09:20 AM
#37
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Originally posted by rynberg
In my car with the exact mods listed in my sig, I had the following temps after a few laps:
95F ambient, well over 100F track temps
running 13 psi, 25/75 coolant/water, fresh t-stat
water: 105C on PFC, 230F on water temp gauge
air: 65C
oil: 260F
In my car with the exact mods listed in my sig, I had the following temps after a few laps:
95F ambient, well over 100F track temps
running 13 psi, 25/75 coolant/water, fresh t-stat
water: 105C on PFC, 230F on water temp gauge
air: 65C
oil: 260F
11-16-03, 09:23 AM
#38
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Originally posted by HeatTreated
Stock IC is insufficient for everything. (but you already know that)
Man I watch all my gauges like a hawk. And at the last track event, never even saw 200F on the stock radiator with water wetter and fan mod on hi the whole time. (I think you know 'rx7gsle' (Eric) he was running with me at Hallet on Nov. 4th)
I hooked up a IC sprayer to help the crappy Stock IC.
(I turn the Profec B off and run 8psi)
Stock IC is insufficient for everything. (but you already know that)
Man I watch all my gauges like a hawk. And at the last track event, never even saw 200F on the stock radiator with water wetter and fan mod on hi the whole time. (I think you know 'rx7gsle' (Eric) he was running with me at Hallet on Nov. 4th)
I hooked up a IC sprayer to help the crappy Stock IC.
(I turn the Profec B off and run 8psi)
11-16-03, 09:36 AM
#39
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Originally posted by pluto
I have been road racing on and off for 13 yrs, I have also been instructing in road course for a few clubs for 3-4 yrs. I think I know the limitations on what is considered harmful. I think AIT is kinda high and WT is right at the limit. As long as you keep the car running to let it cool down, you really can't damage anything, its those people who freaked out of the WT and shuts the engine off that harms the motor. If i pull the plug at 110C, I'll be lucky to get 4-5 laps per session.
I have been road racing on and off for 13 yrs, I have also been instructing in road course for a few clubs for 3-4 yrs. I think I know the limitations on what is considered harmful. I think AIT is kinda high and WT is right at the limit. As long as you keep the car running to let it cool down, you really can't damage anything, its those people who freaked out of the WT and shuts the engine off that harms the motor. If i pull the plug at 110C, I'll be lucky to get 4-5 laps per session.
11-16-03, 09:40 AM
#40
Originally posted by spoolin93r1
i never thought i was too over cautious, but i guess maybe i have been. i have atuo-x'ed my car before and drag raced a whole lot, and have yet to exceed 95*C water temp and i don't think my air temp has ever been over 55*C while competing. Jason at the rx7store gave me one of his maps and i straightened the fuel curve out on the dyno. so i'm not even close to hitting an area to where i'd need to be concerned?
i never thought i was too over cautious, but i guess maybe i have been. i have atuo-x'ed my car before and drag raced a whole lot, and have yet to exceed 95*C water temp and i don't think my air temp has ever been over 55*C while competing. Jason at the rx7store gave me one of his maps and i straightened the fuel curve out on the dyno. so i'm not even close to hitting an area to where i'd need to be concerned?
11-16-03, 09:43 AM
#41
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Ambient temp 80 to 85 F
Water temp, 110 to 115 C (usually near the end of the 25 minute session).
Air intake temps, 40 to 45 C (GReddy 2-row FMIC)
Boost setting, 0.80 kg/cm^2 (~11.4 psi)
In my recent experience, I think the FD is more suited as a street rod, rather than full-blown track car. There are too many complexities to deal with on an FD.
By the time you dump the money you need to make the FD trackworty, you'd have a Radical SR3 Super Sport.
Think I'm crazy? Ask "Fabian" and Brad Barber why they've unloaded their track-only FDs to get Radical SR3s
http://www.radicalmotorsport.com/frames.htm
Water temp, 110 to 115 C (usually near the end of the 25 minute session).
Air intake temps, 40 to 45 C (GReddy 2-row FMIC)
Boost setting, 0.80 kg/cm^2 (~11.4 psi)
In my recent experience, I think the FD is more suited as a street rod, rather than full-blown track car. There are too many complexities to deal with on an FD.
By the time you dump the money you need to make the FD trackworty, you'd have a Radical SR3 Super Sport.
Think I'm crazy? Ask "Fabian" and Brad Barber why they've unloaded their track-only FDs to get Radical SR3s
http://www.radicalmotorsport.com/frames.htm
Dear Emmanuel,
Radical will be running a test drive day at the Talladega Gran Prix Raceway in Alabama on November 24. Would you be interested in coming out for the day to test the SR3? I have attached a copy of the contract for the test drive day and look forward to hearing from you.
Best regards,
Ania McBreen
Radical Extreme Sportscars
Office: +1 (404) 943-0318
Fax: +1 (678) 623-5749
E-mail: McBreenA@Bellsouth.net
Web: http://www.radicalsportscars.com/
Radical Test Contract
This test comprises three parts:
In the first session (3 laps) you will be driven around the circuit by one of the Radical instructors and shown the lines and driving style that we want you to emulate. In the second session (7 laps) you will drive the car in order to evaluate the suitability of the car. The second session will be driven with the Radical instructor as a passenger. During the third session you will drive the car a further 7 laps.
·The test fee of $600 per test driver is required by November 14, 2003. This fee is payable by either cash or check and is non-refundable if the test is cancelled less than 5 days before the test. If a Radical is purchased from the factory within 30 days of the test drive, the $600 fee will be applied towards the purchase of the car.
·Additional laps at $35 are payable in advance by either cash or check. This is non-refundable if the test is cancelled less than 5 days before the test.
·We ask you to drive well within your personal capabilities.
·Do not rev the car to more than three green lights on the rev counter (9000 revs). The red lights must not illuminate.
·Do not aggressively down shift as this may cause the engine to over-rev.
·The Radical Prosport and Radical SR3 have been race prepared and are in good working order. If you cause any damage to either the car or the engine, you will be liable to pay for the repairs in full.
oA Suzuki 1300cc engine for the Radical SR3 costs ₤5,200 plus tax.
oA Suzuki 1500cc engine for the Radical Prosport costs ₤9,150 plus tax.
·Credit card details are required in advance of the test drive and will be returned or destroyed upon completion of the test drive if there is no damage to either the car or the engine.
·The test driver assumes full responsibility for any risk of bodily injury, death, or property damage arising out of, or relating to the test drive.
This contract is governed by the laws of the State of Georgia.
I agree to the above conditions:
Test Driver Name:
Address 1:
Address 2:
Telephone:
E-Mail address
Date:
Signature:
Credit card #:
Expiration date:
Checks should be made payable to: Radical Sportscars, Inc.
Radical will be running a test drive day at the Talladega Gran Prix Raceway in Alabama on November 24. Would you be interested in coming out for the day to test the SR3? I have attached a copy of the contract for the test drive day and look forward to hearing from you.
Best regards,
Ania McBreen
Radical Extreme Sportscars
Office: +1 (404) 943-0318
Fax: +1 (678) 623-5749
E-mail: McBreenA@Bellsouth.net
Web: http://www.radicalsportscars.com/
Radical Test Contract
This test comprises three parts:
In the first session (3 laps) you will be driven around the circuit by one of the Radical instructors and shown the lines and driving style that we want you to emulate. In the second session (7 laps) you will drive the car in order to evaluate the suitability of the car. The second session will be driven with the Radical instructor as a passenger. During the third session you will drive the car a further 7 laps.
·The test fee of $600 per test driver is required by November 14, 2003. This fee is payable by either cash or check and is non-refundable if the test is cancelled less than 5 days before the test. If a Radical is purchased from the factory within 30 days of the test drive, the $600 fee will be applied towards the purchase of the car.
·Additional laps at $35 are payable in advance by either cash or check. This is non-refundable if the test is cancelled less than 5 days before the test.
·We ask you to drive well within your personal capabilities.
·Do not rev the car to more than three green lights on the rev counter (9000 revs). The red lights must not illuminate.
·Do not aggressively down shift as this may cause the engine to over-rev.
·The Radical Prosport and Radical SR3 have been race prepared and are in good working order. If you cause any damage to either the car or the engine, you will be liable to pay for the repairs in full.
oA Suzuki 1300cc engine for the Radical SR3 costs ₤5,200 plus tax.
oA Suzuki 1500cc engine for the Radical Prosport costs ₤9,150 plus tax.
·Credit card details are required in advance of the test drive and will be returned or destroyed upon completion of the test drive if there is no damage to either the car or the engine.
·The test driver assumes full responsibility for any risk of bodily injury, death, or property damage arising out of, or relating to the test drive.
This contract is governed by the laws of the State of Georgia.
I agree to the above conditions:
Test Driver Name:
Address 1:
Address 2:
Telephone:
E-Mail address
Date:
Signature:
Credit card #:
Expiration date:
Checks should be made payable to: Radical Sportscars, Inc.
Last edited by SleepR1; 11-16-03 at 10:00 AM.
11-16-03, 09:50 AM
#42
Originally posted by SleepR1
In my recent experience, I think the FD is more suited as a street rod, rather than full-blown track car. There are too many complexities to deal with. CrispyRx7's FD is probably for of an anomoly, rather than the rule
In my recent experience, I think the FD is more suited as a street rod, rather than full-blown track car. There are too many complexities to deal with. CrispyRx7's FD is probably for of an anomoly, rather than the rule
I haven't had a good try at the track yet with the shark mod installed. The weekend I was at the track with it the ambient temp was around 55 so it's not really a fair test to see how it improves the cooling.
11-16-03, 10:06 AM
#44
Lives on the Forum
Originally posted by Mahjik
That front mount is what's killing you the most.
That front mount is what's killing you the most.
The clog was restricting exhaust flow, and causing the motor to work harder, to generate the exhaust flow needed to make boost. The car's in great working order NOW (that I've replaced the clogged hi-flow cat with a straight-through midpipe). My FD's tracking days are over. I'm busily saving my pennies for other options (whether that be a new Rx8 or new SR3... )
Last edited by SleepR1; 11-16-03 at 10:13 AM.
11-16-03, 11:57 AM
#45
Originally posted by SleepR1
Actually a clogged high-flow cat was killing the me the most The clog was restricting exhaust flow, and causing the motor to work harder, to generate the exhaust flow needed to make boost. The car's in great working order NOW (that I've replaced the clogged hi-flow cat with a straight-through midpipe). My FD's tracking days are over. I'm busily saving my pennies for other options (whether that be a new Rx8 or new SR3... )
Actually a clogged high-flow cat was killing the me the most
The clog was restricting exhaust flow, and causing the motor to work harder, to generate the exhaust flow needed to make boost. The car's in great working order NOW (that I've replaced the clogged hi-flow cat with a straight-through midpipe). My FD's tracking days are over. I'm busily saving my pennies for other options (whether that be a new Rx8 or new SR3... )
I believe the key is spending money wisely, not just spending a lot in general. Heck, you put the wrong stuff on any car and you'll have problems at the track. Last year, there was a supercharged Z06 at the track. The ambient temps were very high and he never could get a complete session before having to shut down do to heat. However, RTS3GEN was there running the whole day (as well as other non-SC'd Z06's). The supercharger, while provides a nice kick in the pants, was not necessarily the best addition to run on the track. Same thing can be applied to the FD (as well as other cars).
11-16-03, 12:38 PM
#46
Lives on the Forum
I'll maintain that the GReddy FMIC is not the root cause of my problems. My opinion about my FD not being a very strong track car stems from my 8 years of owning it, and 7 years of tracking it. IMHO for bullet-proof reliability and strong running at club race or DE instructor level driving, one must eventually move toward a dedicated nonproduction-based racing car.
I admire all of you for trying to make the FD trackworthy for minimum investment. It's a worthy goal, it's just one that I'm sick of trying to attain...
Best of luck!
I admire all of you for trying to make the FD trackworthy for minimum investment. It's a worthy goal, it's just one that I'm sick of trying to attain...
Best of luck!
11-17-03, 08:26 AM
#47
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Originally posted by CrispyRX7
Like I said...pull the plug at 110deg C. At 95deg C the Tstat is barely beginning to crack open. But to each his own..safest thing to avoid an overheated car is to never start it.
Crispy
Like I said...pull the plug at 110deg C. At 95deg C the Tstat is barely beginning to crack open. But to each his own..safest thing to avoid an overheated car is to never start it.
Crispy
A limit of 110deg C is a safer number. Note: I haven't seen temps above 106deg C since installing the CWC oil coolers.
Mark
07-25-04, 06:24 PM
#48
Lives on the Forum
Recent motor failure at Mid Ohio, Memorial Day weekend. Front rotor chamber lost compression. Zavier Neeley and Mike Holland finally got my motor torn down. Failure was caused by rotor 1's apex corner seal chipping, and getting lodged between the rotor and rotor housing (3-pc apex seal). Scored the housing pretty good, and the apex seal is press-fitted so tightly the rotor can't be re-used. New rotor and rotor housing are needed for a rebuild. Apparently the water seals were in great shape. There were no apparent signs of a heat-related engine damage. Apex seals were 3-piece. Motor was KDR/Malloy Reman with 18000 miles/18 months.
Cause for the the apex seal failure was detonation. Not sure how/when/what caused the detonation. During my sessions @ Mid Ohio, water temps were 115 C peak at the end of the session (85 F ambient, high humidty). Air intake temp was 50 C peak. I've been running the GReddy 2-row FMIC/Koyo rad for 18 months/18000 miles, and at least 8 open track events. Power FC was dyno-tuned to 16 psi/10.9 AFR/370 rwhp/93 unleaded pump gas. Track session boost was 12 psi (0.85 kg/cm^2).
New rebuild should be done by mid August, in time for test/tune session @ Mid Ohio Labor Day. Considering running Evans waterless coolant in the new motor. Any thoughts from the track racers out there?
Also enlarging the ports. Apparently KDR's 25% larger street port is more like a 10% larger street port LOL...
I guess I'll be running race gas for insurance purposes next time!
Cause for the the apex seal failure was detonation. Not sure how/when/what caused the detonation. During my sessions @ Mid Ohio, water temps were 115 C peak at the end of the session (85 F ambient, high humidty). Air intake temp was 50 C peak. I've been running the GReddy 2-row FMIC/Koyo rad for 18 months/18000 miles, and at least 8 open track events. Power FC was dyno-tuned to 16 psi/10.9 AFR/370 rwhp/93 unleaded pump gas. Track session boost was 12 psi (0.85 kg/cm^2).
New rebuild should be done by mid August, in time for test/tune session @ Mid Ohio Labor Day. Considering running Evans waterless coolant in the new motor. Any thoughts from the track racers out there?
Also enlarging the ports. Apparently KDR's 25% larger street port is more like a 10% larger street port LOL...
I guess I'll be running race gas for insurance purposes next time!
Last edited by SleepR1; 07-25-04 at 06:38 PM.
07-25-04, 07:05 PM
#49
Eats, Sleeps, Dreams Rotary
Manny!
sorry to hear that. That sucks.
Did you ever think about running water injection?
I assume from this thread and the other one that you are concerned about localized boiling and want to switch to Evans is that correct?
sorry to hear that. That sucks.
Did you ever think about running water injection?
I assume from this thread and the other one that you are concerned about localized boiling and want to switch to Evans is that correct?
07-25-04, 07:57 PM
#50
Lives on the Forum
Originally Posted by 7racer
Manny!
sorry to hear that. That sucks.
Did you ever think about running water injection?
I assume from this thread and the other one that you are concerned about localized boiling and want to switch to Evans is that correct?
sorry to hear that. That sucks.
Did you ever think about running water injection?
I assume from this thread and the other one that you are concerned about localized boiling and want to switch to Evans is that correct?