SleepR1

This is strange, I thought you were gung ho about the $399 price for the SRM HMIC?

SleepR1

Yes, as a road racer, the HMIC used with a large Koyo stock mounted radiator will be the ideal setup for making strong rwhp, while maintaining stable motor temps on the road racing circuit.

IMO, the front-mount, v-mount ICs are strictly for the 1/4-mile passes, but are not intended for road racers where the heat generated by 300 rwhp will quickly cook the motor to failure WITHOUT the fresh cooling air rammed into the big Koyo radiator.

A FMIC or VMIC will pass warmed air into the bigger radiator. Although the radiator will be larger, the efficiency will be lost, and the cooling effect from the larger rad (used with an FMIC or VMIC) will be no better than what the stock radiator will provide when used in the stock location with an SMIC...

FWIW, the Rotary Extreme VMIC, requires the removal of the AC condenser, so you lose your AC with the Rotary Extreme VMIC

FD-Fever

SleepR1: Good info. I just would think the VMIC would be ideal for circuit racing... fresh air getting to both the raditor and the intercooler. (not to worried about the condenser) .... but the FMIC is the "best" looking set up, and people race around like their trying to get poll poss. (which i dont blame them for having fun).

gohorns

399 is a good deal for a big core like that but the HMIC is a time consuming project even if you have the resources. I got a good deal on a SMIC kit which means less work for me

johnchabin

iTrader: (2)

Sell it to a 3rd gen guy so we can pick his brain on how the installation was accomplished.

My brain can be picked when I get further along...

gohorns

johnchabin, rx7even: how is the HMIC project going? I'm still interested to know how it works out. Keep us posted.

BTW My HMIC is sold

rx7even

Mine is still hanging out in my closet until I can dedicate several days to working on it. I also want to relocate my battery, get the airpump out, and get a greddy elbow first. Maybe around Christmas I'll toss it in. Definetely be posting if I do.

Ryan

Kevin T. Wyum

Can someone explain the reasoning behind an HMIC to me please? I think I must be missing something.

Not to make this into any kind of pissing contest but since when did the M2 (ASP) IC's suddenly start having horrible problems with the hose clamps coming apart? Is this a fictional sales pitch trying to sell something else or did people forget how to tighten a clamp the first time or are pipes coming smooth with no bead? This whole bead issue has really got me thrown for a loop. I made the IC's for years and it was never a problem, the hood scraping thing was at first though.

I'm kinda new to the board here so I don't really know who everyone is.

Kevin T. Wyum

rotaryextreme

iTrader: (2)

I need to point this out. V Mount is not for drag racing. It's for road racing. Knight Sports, Panspeed, Revolution Motorsports, and Axia Motorsports in Japan all use V mounts on their road race cars.

V mount is a fairly new concept in the US but it has been practiced for over 2 years Japan.

Chuck Huang

rotaryextreme

iTrader: (2)

Remeber a couple of years ago you were going to incorporate a outlet duct for the ASP IC with a vented hood but it was never finished? HMIC does just that. Hot air vents out through vented hood. If the vent on the hood is positioned at the low pressure area on the hood, more air will be drawn through the intercooler to increase the cooling effect. If the owner does not have a vented hood, a HMIC should function the same as the SMIC assuming the same intercooler core is used.

The ASP/M2 intercooler is not mounted rigidly to the chassis. If you fabricate a bracket to mount it to that cross car where the intercooler sits on, the couplers should not pop off anymore.

Chuck Huang

johnchabin

iTrader: (2)

Ditto... but I'll keep my airpump and I have a small battery.

My reason ---> $399

Kevin T. Wyum

"Remeber a couple of years ago you were going to incorporate a outlet duct for the ASP IC with a vented hood but it was never finished?"

Yup, actually I'm going to finish it now : ). It's one of the things I just assumed there'd never be people serious enough to replace a hood as well. Bad assumption on my part. How the heck do ya ship a hood btw? : ).

"HMIC does just that. Hot air vents out through vented hood. If the vent on the hood is positioned at the low pressure area on the hood, more air will be drawn through the intercooler to increase the cooling effect. "


The pictures I saw posted didn't really do what my design from 3 or 4 years ago did. You have the general concept but not really in the same ballpark. I'll explain it in a few months after I actually do this. You're right though the vented hood will help pull air out, although it will pull it from the engine bay in general as much as it will from the IC. My point was why did you want the IC to be sitting completely horizontal? It seems really strange to have the core perpendicular to the direction your incoming air is traveling.


"If the owner does not have a vented hood, a HMIC should function the same as the SMIC assuming the same intercooler core is used. "

Not really, the air is being blown directly into a wall, the underside of the hood and forced to turn 180 degrees to escape through the normal route by the sides of the motor and underneath the car. That's why the horizontal thing seemed really goofy to me. At extremely high speeds isn't there also going to be a safety issue with directing all the frontal air upwards on the underside of the hood? I've seen my hood shaking badly before and it scared the crap outta me.

"The ASP/M2 intercooler is not mounted rigidly to the chassis. If you fabricate a bracket to mount it to that cross car where the intercooler sits on, the couplers should not pop off anymore."

When did the couplers start popping off? They didn't for years while I was building them. The Core being bolted to the chassis has nothing to do with hoses coming off. If there is any actual problem with hoses popping off it's because someone manufactured them incorrectly and didn't put an appropriate bead on. There's a reason the OEM IC has those giant accordian hose sections and rubber foot mounts. Solid mounts will lead to pipes and welds cracking over time unless you have a significant flex joint such as those bubble hose connections with the flex built into them.

Where'd you get this concept that there was a problem with hoses popping off the IC's btw?

Kevin T. Wyum




Chuck Huang



quote:

SleepR1

Kevin,

I've seen the M2/ASP Large IC rubber couplers pop off on my friends car at the track. He had a continual problem with the rubber couplers decoupling the IC pipes, and causing boost leaks (as well as an oily mess). I've read stories of others on this board that have had similar problems with the couplers. My friend, was consistently frustrated with his M2/ASP large setup at the track.

He's also had motor cooling issues that he attributed to the large inlet duct that sits above his radiator with the M2/ASP large IC. He questioned how well the M2/ASP inlet duct was actually getting air to the IC, since the inlet duct opening toward the fresh ram air was so danged SMALL; so he removed that large IC inlet duct to allow more air to pass through the radiator, and installed two large fans on the outlet side of the M2/ASP large intercooler as well as the on the outlet side of the radiator. Both sets of fans (radiator and IC) are switchable from the cockpit. The radiator fans run off of a thermostat switch as well.

Anyhow, with all the trouble "Jim" had with his ASP/M2 large IC setup, I started looking into other alternatives. Chuck's HMIC setup looked fairly reliable with regard setup, with the benefit of being able to be used with an Anfini Y-pipe for even more reliability.

I'm not clear on air flow dynamics, and which setup works best for horsepower.

For my specific purpose of running no more than 10.5 psi of boost from the J-spec sequential twins, Chuck's HMIC looked to be the best compromise.

From what Chuck just posted above, apparently his V-mount IC/large rad is the best set up for road racing. Unfortunately Chuck doesn't have a way to mount the A/C condenser, and I just gotta have my A/C during the humid/hot Indiana summers! Thus, Chuck's HMIC becomes the next best alternative...

rotaryextreme

iTrader: (2)

You say if a non-vented hood is not used, air exiting the IC will strike the hood to push it up. Your assumption is not correct. The amount of air flows into the engine is determined by the frontal area of the bumper opening. It does not matter how the IC is positioned, you still have the same amount of air going into the engine bay. Most of it is from the air going through the radiator, not the intercooler. I am 100% sure the rattling of the hood is caused by the air coming in through the radiator, not the intercooler. Stock latch catch sucks anyways. Mine already broke off.

About how the air existing the intercooler directly hits a wall, it's the same thing with any SMIC. It directly hits the engine. There is actually a lot of space between the HMIC and the hood for the air to disperse. If you go to my website, you can see how much space it has through the vents of the hood.

If you are going to make a SMIC that vents directly through the vents of the hood, you will have to make a duct that makes the air existing turning 90 degrees as well. It's just something you cannot avoid no matter how you do it. The mouth of the bumper and the hood is perpendicular. So if you want air to go from the mouth of the bumper to the hood, the air has to turn at least 90 degrees no matter how you route it.

About the M2/ASP IC's couplers popping off. I have seen that happen on a few road race cars and street cars. The silicon couplers are not rigid enough to hold the weight of the intercooler. If the couplers do not pop off, the intercooler is misaligned after a while. SleepyR1 can comment on that too since he runs a road race club and it happened to his club members as I was told. You can start a thread to see if it happends to other people who owned a M2/ASP intercooler.

If you are worrying about welds cracking due to vibration, you can use those rubber mounts like those used for the stock radiator to mount the intercooler to the cross bar or just replace the silicon joints with the hump ones. The stock piping has beads on it too but it still pops off. Isn't that one of the reasons Mazda replace the Y-pipe with the metal one that's bolted in instead of clamped on? Beads can prevent the couplers fromt popping off but if there is too much movement, it will pop off eventually.

To ship a hood, any freight company can do. I have shipped more than 50 hoods so far. Only one damaged one so far.

Chuck Huang

ptrhahn

iTrader: (9)

I can't see where coupler failures are specific to M2/ASP intercoolers. The couplers and clamps are the same as virtually any kit, and if theres a proper bead on the pipes, theres really no difference in the junctions to any other setup... simply mounting it horizontally would change that.

IF the fit of the M2/ASP is suspect in some area such that a junction can't be made properly, thats really a different issue... each car is different, and when you push the dimensional envelope, some fitting is necessary. I even had coupler problems with my PFS IC after installing a larger rad. due top some misalignment.

I totally buy the V-mount set up...if you don't want A/C, but I don't see the value of a horizontal IC with the standard radiator setup. ANY SMIC will allow heat to leave via a vented hood, so long as the IC is in front of the vent (and i believe all are). I don't think any of them will be more or less efficient the another unless there is a sealed, dedicated duct from IC exit to the hood vent... and then you'd loose the effect of venting other engine heat through the hood vent. AND, doesn't it make the inlet duct pretty convoluted, and make it tough for incoming air to have a "shot" at the lower portion of the IC?

I agree that tilting the IC forward (like a CWR) a little bit is very beneficial for routing the IC pipes... particularly from the efini y-pipe.... Check out Chris Regans site:

http://www.negative-camber.org/crispyrx7/cwric.htm

If it weren't for a difficult duct, i believe this would be the best set up, and would lend itself to a "medium" version, or a dedicated exit duct in the future.

rotaryextreme

iTrader: (2)

The couplers popping off has nothing to do with if it's SMIC or HMIC. It only has to do with the M2/ASP is not mounted to the chassis. When there is a lot of vibration, the couplers pop off.

A SMIC will not vent through the hood as well as the HMIC. A little experiment can go a long way. Grab a fan and blow it to the wall to see where air goes when it strikes the wall. It goes all around. So for a SMIC, where the existing air strikes the engine, not all the hot air will vent through the hood. There are two vents on any kind of vented hood. You can use one for the IC and the other for the radiator if you want.

Chuck

Kevin T. Wyum

"I've seen the M2/ASP Large IC rubber couplers pop off on my friends car at the track. He had a continual problem with the rubber couplers decoupling the IC pipes, and causing boost leaks (as well as an oily mess). I've read stories of others on this board that have had similar problems with the couplers. My friend, was consistently frustrated with his M2/ASP large setup at the track. "

This is the same guy you told me about in your email that had pipes sent to him that had no bead at all and later someone took a pliers to the end and bent them out as a fix to the problem? The tubes are all supposed to have a nice bead that I never heard complaints about popping off before now. I'm sorry your friend got kinda screwed but it's the lack of a bead that caused your friends "continual" problem, not the IC, the design or anything else. He got a defective part. It's pretty laughable to say the IC not being bolted down caused a tube with no bead to come out.

"He's also had motor cooling issues that he attributed to the large inlet duct that sits above his radiator with the M2/ASP large IC. He questioned how well the M2/ASP inlet duct was actually getting air to the IC, since the inlet duct opening toward the fresh ram air was so danged SMALL;"

There's about 7 or 8 years of testing to show how much air it gets through. It's really easy to plug a thermocouple into the input and output tubes of the IC to watch and measure the effect instead of ripping out the duct. Not to be rude but your friend kinda took a leap there. There's more than 300 of these intercoolers out there and I think this is about the first time I've heard that, some people use the lower extension to the duct to increase the amount of air coming in if needed. Some people even got carried away, ala Trev's FTL Intake : ).

"so he removed that large IC inlet duct to allow more air to pass through the radiator, and installed two large fans on the outlet side of the M2/ASP large intercooler as well as the on the outlet side of the radiator. Both sets of fans (radiator and IC) are switchable from the cockpit. The radiator fans run off of a thermostat switch as well. "

Fans without a duct are kinda pointless. You're wasting effort to pull hot air through the IC faster.

"From what Chuck just posted above, apparently his V-mount IC/large rad is the best set up for road racing. "

Huh? Because some people in Japan did it? Feh. I never understood that Japaneese tuner worship from some people. Since the car came here US tuners consistently provided better hp numbers and generally better results in every aspect of the cars performance.

I'm not here to argue which has better performance, that's easy enough to simply test with a couple temp probes, boost gauges and a couple drives. Anyway I'm moving this week so I need to go home and get some sleep. Been at work all night : )


Kevin T. Wyum

ptrhahn

iTrader: (9)

Chuck, I totally understand your point about a HMIC having a straighter "exit" shot at a hood vent, but, since the air is coming into the car horizontally, and needs to exit nearly vertically , its gotta turn that corner somewhere. With an HMIC it has to turn up into the IC then straight out, with a SMIC it goes straight through then turns up to go out. Going in, you have the ram effect, going out you have the suction effect... sounds about the same to me.

Addmittedly, i havn't seen the inlet duct for your HMIC, but was thinking that since the radiator is already diagonal, it might be pretty tight. hence my thought that diagonal is the best compromise (also see Regan's new rightup on his vented hood with pics of the outlet path).

As far as couplers, i disagree that mounting the IC solidly will help. Since the engine moves significantly, a solid mounting would only cause stress on the joints that need to make up the slack.

I'm just theorizing of course, and certainly not bashing anyones product (as i don't own any of them). Both Kevins and Chucks ICs look very nice, and this is all with the understanding that no perfect setup is out there without re-engineering the front of the car.

gohorns

IMO it does not matter if the IC is vertical or horizontal as long as you have a duct forcing air thru it and clearence for the air to exit out.

The big advantage to the SR HMIC is that the IC pipes are very short and that they have no bends in them. This means less heat tranfer which leads to pressure drop. This is a big plus over FMICs and even SMICs. Other advantages include keeping the battery and radiator in the stock locations. Add a vented hood to the mix and you have and all around IC.

rotaryextreme

iTrader: (2)

Remember the IC pipes are mounted to the Greddy Elbow and Y pipe using silicone joints? Silicone joints are not rock solid, are they? There is your slack there for stress relieve.

Chuck

Kevin T. Wyum

IMO it does not matter if the IC is vertical or horizontal as long as you have a duct forcing air thru it and clearence for the air to exit out.

Gah! Okay what are we talking about here? There are apparently two HMIC's, Chucks Rotary Extreme which has a duct and SR's that has no duct and was discontinued right?

"The big advantage to the SR HMIC is that the IC pipes are very short and that they have no bends in them. "

Not sure what you're looking at but the SR pipes look almost identical to the ASP Medium ones. Same bends and distance etc. The Rotary Extreme one has longer tubes and more bends than either of the others.


"This means less heat tranfer which leads to pressure drop. "

I think you misunderstand Pressure Drop when used in reference to IC's. Pressure drop is meant to describe how restrictive a core is. How hard it is for the air to pass through the core at different pressures.


"This is a big plus over FMICs and even SMICs. Other advantages include keeping the battery and radiator in the stock locations. Add a vented hood to the mix and you have and all around IC."

I don't see any advantages though. Nothing you just mentioned applies to the ASP Medium which I thought we were talking about.

This is almost like the old days. Just no flames : )

Kevin T. Wyum

P.S. Still not sleeping

rotaryextreme

iTrader: (2)

Actually Japanese tuners have come out with a lot of innovative products and impressive race cars over the years.

1. Scoot Sports 700rwhp road race car.
2. Axia Motorsports 3 rotor, tri turbo 850 rwhp road race car.

How many US shops do you know that have that kind of HP on their road race cars? From what I know, M2's race car only puts out 450 rwhp. It' not about worship. If they have done something right, I think they should deserve some credit and respect.

About V-Mount, it's like having a front mount intercooler and radiator at the same time. Can you explain why it's not the best setup for any kind of racing or street driving?

The concept for cooling is not that hard to understand. Get the most air flowing through the heat exchanger to carry out the most heat. For a given size of intercooler, if there is more air flow through it, the cooling efficiency is just higher.

I really want to hear about your theory why a V Mount will not be more efficient than a stock mount IC or a front mount IC. Thank you in advance.


Chuck Huang


[IMG]

ptrhahn

iTrader: (9)

I know, thats my point~!

If the problem is that these joints come loose, then its likely they don't offer enough flexibility to move w/ the motor. I can't imagine any vibration would move the IC any more than the normal rocking of the engine.... if the IC is allowed to shift slightly WITH the motor, its less likely to pull couplings loose.

Honestly, i've run my PFS both ways.... mounted fairly solidly to the duct (it bolts to it) , and unbolted with bulb sealer on the duct... had no effect on the pipe couplings.

What DID have an effect was when things weren't aligned properly, and left not enough silicon coupler outside the clamps, and/or some oil got on the inside of the silicon couplings. I think alignment is the key. Plus, i swapped the thinner orange, re-enforced couplers it came with some thicker blue ones from XS. The thicker ones fit tighter, and are "stickier" inside... i think this made a huge difference (i'm not suggesting the color made a difference, just the make-up of the coupler).

rotaryextreme

iTrader: (2)

Kevin:

hmm..you know M2 has that new pipe that clears the air pump right? It apparently has 3 bends (one 90 degree and one S bend which is actually two bends). The other pipe going to the greddy elbow has 2 bends (1 S bend which is actually 2 bends). So why is the Rotary Extreme one has more bends on the pipes? It should have the same bend as yours.

I am glad you brought up the CFM of the core. The core I use is the new Spearco tube and fin which flows 935 CFM according to the Spearco data. How about the one you are using right now? If I remember correctly, the one you use flows about 750 CFM right?

Any HMIC or SMIC without a duct won't work. SR HMIC is definitely not a good choice.

I still remember we used to argue about FMIC vs SMIC and now we are doing it again. =)

Chuck

SleepR1

Kevin...yeah, apparently the guy who used pliers on Jim Phend's M2/ASP large IC pipes was Brian himself of M2 Performance As you read in Jim's email, that sorry story happened at MADS VIR 2001 (as I recall)...

Chuck, yes, Jim Phend, the guy with all the problems with his M2/ASP large IC is one of my Motorsports Driving Club members. He's an active road racer with lots of time at Putnam Park, Mid Ohio, Gingerman, and VIR.

I have to say this is the most civlized discussion I've read concerning intercoolers. It's not often we have the opportunity to read "competing" theories on air charge cooling by the inventors of the respective intercoolers

I myself am left wavering, but am still leaning toward Chuck's HMIC setup if for no other reason than being able to use the Anfini Y-pipe WITHOUT any modifications. I'm willing to bet that Chuck's HMIC used with both an inlet and outlet duct in conjunction with a vented hood will be the cooler charged setup...

To Kevin and Chuck--I'm willing to A/B compare your respective IC setups on my '93 R1, if you guys want to fly out to Indy and have your parts installed on my car and track tested at Putnam Park Road Course. You have to wait until I have Dave Barninger (of KD Rotary) install my "secret sauce" ported motor, and J-spec sequential twins first, though