Gotham Racing & BNR Supercars -- Pulling It All Together
02-04-05, 11:22 PM
#26
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i dont know if anyone has said this or not but... there seem to be alot of people who have never worked on, driven, built or maintained a 400hp car yet seem compelled to say things. like they are chaneling dead crazy people. 400+hp that idles and can get drive-thru with the radio on is a def winner.
02-05-05, 03:51 AM
#28
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Glad to hear that you finally made it to the dyno and with good results. I hope me and Poss were a help and not a hindrance in finding and correcting any issues with the car. Apprantly it runs well!
I should get an untuned dyno in a few weeks....if, for nothing more, comparison's sake...
Hope all is well and see you soon around AL
I should get an untuned dyno in a few weeks....if, for nothing more, comparison's sake...
Hope all is well and see you soon around AL
02-05-05, 09:51 AM
#30
Rotary Enthusiast
I'm worried about the condition of the stock turbine housing, at 100k miles all of the FD twinturbo I saw have crack somewhere on the turbo, mostly on the exhaust housing. Mine actually had a big crack inside the housing and was chewing up the wheel. How long would the housing last with BNR upgrade?
02-05-05, 11:24 AM
#31
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The RP T78 car has a high flow cat in it. if you look at the article in the magazine, you'll see that this car is/was emissions legal and passes it with ease. I don't recall if the car has a stock port or street port but it was all plain bolt-ons. That's why you see such a lag in turbo spool because of the back pressure. As for my #'s, that was done 7 years ago. I'm sure that I could have done better, smoother torque and more hp if I'm doing the same car over again. Still not bad considered that was a 7yr old dyno chart. 
Originally Posted by SPOautos
Lets not forget this car could have just as easily been running SEQ instead of non seq and he should have made the same power up top because he still has all the flappers in his exhaust.
Now, as for this laggieness being non seq, that probably has some to do with him having all the seq stuff still there AND because he was being tuned with race gas. If he was on pump gas it would make more power all over. If you look at my dyno which is car #76 you'll see I made more down low and midrange. It could have been because I removed all the seq items but was probably due to the fact that I was on pump gas and not quiet so rich as him. To put it simple when you run with race gas as a precaution you end up being rich. That way when you run with pump gas its going to lean out some and make more power (all over low, mid, upper range) and spool better.
Also, if you notice Davids car had substantially more mid range from 5000-6500 than the T78 car did. Keep in mind the T78 car was running alcohol/water injection which means it can run more advanced tuning which makes a HUGE difference. Look at the RP T78 car and other T78 car, thier low end and midrange is horrible compared to Davids.
Anyway, I didnt really want to nit pick every dyno sheet in existance, I just wanted to show that going with a single turbo even as large as a T78 isnt going to get you hardely any gain if any at all. People saying they would hold out for single just dont look at dyno sheet comparisons enough. I just wanted to show the point that to really benifit from single at this boost level you need to go BIIGGGG like T72 or larger.
Now, as for this laggieness being non seq, that probably has some to do with him having all the seq stuff still there AND because he was being tuned with race gas. If he was on pump gas it would make more power all over. If you look at my dyno which is car #76 you'll see I made more down low and midrange. It could have been because I removed all the seq items but was probably due to the fact that I was on pump gas and not quiet so rich as him. To put it simple when you run with race gas as a precaution you end up being rich. That way when you run with pump gas its going to lean out some and make more power (all over low, mid, upper range) and spool better.
Also, if you notice Davids car had substantially more mid range from 5000-6500 than the T78 car did. Keep in mind the T78 car was running alcohol/water injection which means it can run more advanced tuning which makes a HUGE difference. Look at the RP T78 car and other T78 car, thier low end and midrange is horrible compared to Davids.
Anyway, I didnt really want to nit pick every dyno sheet in existance, I just wanted to show that going with a single turbo even as large as a T78 isnt going to get you hardely any gain if any at all. People saying they would hold out for single just dont look at dyno sheet comparisons enough. I just wanted to show the point that to really benifit from single at this boost level you need to go BIIGGGG like T72 or larger.
Last edited by pluto; 02-05-05 at 11:28 AM.
02-05-05, 12:03 PM
#32
Original Gangster/Rotary!
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Originally Posted by mad_7tist
i dont know if anyone has said this or not but... there seem to be alot of people who have never worked on, driven, built or maintained a 400hp car yet seem compelled to say things. like they are chaneling dead crazy people. 400+hp that idles and can get drive-thru with the radio on is a def winner.
Also, great detective work spo. I am wishing I would have stayed seq, I think that is definitely the hot ticket
.
02-05-05, 05:41 PM
#33
Hey, where did my $$$ go?
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Originally Posted by pluto
The RP T78 car has a high flow cat in it. if you look at the article in the magazine, you'll see that this car is/was emissions legal and passes it with ease. I don't recall if the car has a stock port or street port but it was all plain bolt-ons. That's why you see such a lag in turbo spool because of the back pressure. As for my #'s, that was done 7 years ago. I'm sure that I could have done better, smoother torque and more hp if I'm doing the same car over again. Still not bad considered that was a 7yr old dyno chart.
Ahhh, someone should add that to the dyno info. (Wargasm if you read this can you add on that RP T78 chart that it was running a high flow cat?).
Anyway, I hope you didnt take my thread as putting anyone down. I was mearly trying to show that when you look at average hp through the rpm range these twins hang right in there with the single turbos. Even the larger medium sized ones like a T78. And yes, your right making over 400rw was very much an accomplishment 7 years ago. There werent many single turbo rx7's back then, much less one that ran right.
You did a good just tuning Davids car
Stephen
02-05-05, 06:33 PM
#34
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Ill put my Singleturbo setup, up against twin set up anyday.
Not to say my SINGLE is out of the ordinary. With a Good tune
by Dee of RR racing its a bat out of hell.
Granted the stage 3 twins are sweet.. BUT they start losing WIND
after 20psi.. Correct me if im wrong..
Don't forget.. Singles with beefed up Fuel system can PUSH up to
32PSI and more. Some where in teh SINGLEturbo section,
somebody was running 32psi with supporting single mods..
was SMOKING his tires and going sideways at 130mph..
Find me some TWINS that can do that...
next issue would be.. HOW Long would twins last pushing 19psi??
one other thing.. when we all start talking about upgraded stage 3 twins
and big Single turbos and etc.. Whats all this talk about Lag???
All I want to say is " What lag"""????
Some of you actually go WOT at IDLE?? just to have something to whine about???
Not to say my SINGLE is out of the ordinary. With a Good tune
by Dee of RR racing its a bat out of hell.
Granted the stage 3 twins are sweet.. BUT they start losing WIND
after 20psi.. Correct me if im wrong..
Don't forget.. Singles with beefed up Fuel system can PUSH up to
32PSI and more. Some where in teh SINGLEturbo section,
somebody was running 32psi with supporting single mods..
was SMOKING his tires and going sideways at 130mph..
Find me some TWINS that can do that...
next issue would be.. HOW Long would twins last pushing 19psi??
one other thing.. when we all start talking about upgraded stage 3 twins
and big Single turbos and etc.. Whats all this talk about Lag???
All I want to say is " What lag"""????
Some of you actually go WOT at IDLE?? just to have something to whine about???
02-05-05, 07:48 PM
#36
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Originally Posted by SlingShotRX7
Ill put my Singleturbo setup, up against twin set up anyday.
Not to say my SINGLE is out of the ordinary. With a Good tune
by Dee of RR racing its a bat out of hell.
Granted the stage 3 twins are sweet.. BUT they start losing WIND
after 20psi.. Correct me if im wrong..
Don't forget.. Singles with beefed up Fuel system can PUSH up to
32PSI and more. Some where in teh SINGLEturbo section,
somebody was running 32psi with supporting single mods..
was SMOKING his tires and going sideways at 130mph..
Find me some TWINS that can do that...
next issue would be.. HOW Long would twins last pushing 19psi??
one other thing.. when we all start talking about upgraded stage 3 twins
and big Single turbos and etc.. Whats all this talk about Lag???
All I want to say is " What lag"""????
Some of you actually go WOT at IDLE?? just to have something to whine about???
Not to say my SINGLE is out of the ordinary. With a Good tune
by Dee of RR racing its a bat out of hell.
Granted the stage 3 twins are sweet.. BUT they start losing WIND
after 20psi.. Correct me if im wrong..
Don't forget.. Singles with beefed up Fuel system can PUSH up to
32PSI and more. Some where in teh SINGLEturbo section,
somebody was running 32psi with supporting single mods..
was SMOKING his tires and going sideways at 130mph..
Find me some TWINS that can do that...
next issue would be.. HOW Long would twins last pushing 19psi??
one other thing.. when we all start talking about upgraded stage 3 twins
and big Single turbos and etc.. Whats all this talk about Lag???
All I want to say is " What lag"""????
Some of you actually go WOT at IDLE?? just to have something to whine about???
02-05-05, 08:37 PM
#37
Hey, where did my $$$ go?
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Originally Posted by SlingShotRX7
Ill put my Singleturbo setup, up against twin set up anyday.
Not to say my SINGLE is out of the ordinary. With a Good tune
by Dee of RR racing its a bat out of hell.
Granted the stage 3 twins are sweet.. BUT they start losing WIND
after 20psi.. Correct me if im wrong..
Don't forget.. Singles with beefed up Fuel system can PUSH up to
32PSI and more. Some where in teh SINGLEturbo section,
somebody was running 32psi with supporting single mods..
was SMOKING his tires and going sideways at 130mph..
Find me some TWINS that can do that...
next issue would be.. HOW Long would twins last pushing 19psi??
one other thing.. when we all start talking about upgraded stage 3 twins
and big Single turbos and etc.. Whats all this talk about Lag???
All I want to say is " What lag"""????
Some of you actually go WOT at IDLE?? just to have something to whine about???
Not to say my SINGLE is out of the ordinary. With a Good tune
by Dee of RR racing its a bat out of hell.
Granted the stage 3 twins are sweet.. BUT they start losing WIND
after 20psi.. Correct me if im wrong..
Don't forget.. Singles with beefed up Fuel system can PUSH up to
32PSI and more. Some where in teh SINGLEturbo section,
somebody was running 32psi with supporting single mods..
was SMOKING his tires and going sideways at 130mph..
Find me some TWINS that can do that...
next issue would be.. HOW Long would twins last pushing 19psi??
one other thing.. when we all start talking about upgraded stage 3 twins
and big Single turbos and etc.. Whats all this talk about Lag???
All I want to say is " What lag"""????
Some of you actually go WOT at IDLE?? just to have something to whine about???
I find it humerous that you would say "singles with beefed up fuel system can PUSH up to 32psi and more". So you going to lump all "singles" into that category and feed everyone full of bull ****? Why would you make a blanket statement about singles and psi that besically means nothing and is incorrect? Why dont you list out all the turbos that you can run 32psi on with a single, I bet I can list a lot more turbos that CANT run 32psi.
Are YOU running 32psi with your single that Dee tuned??? How much boost are your running? What single you have?
I think you missed the entire point anyway. The point was that on pump gas (17psi or less) the twins are going to hold thier own agaist any single thats smaller than a T72. No one knows if they will contunue making power at higher boost or not because no one has had them over 17psi.
BTW - You take your car down a track yet? What were you running and at what boost? Davids car will be good for about 125-127mph traps on pump gas. What are your traps on pump gas?
Stephen
Last edited by SPOautos; 02-05-05 at 08:44 PM.
02-05-05, 10:41 PM
#38
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Originally Posted by SPOautos
BTW - You take your car down a track yet? What were you running and at what boost? Davids car will be good for about 125-127mph traps on pump gas. What are your traps on pump gas?
Stephen
Stephen
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02-06-05, 03:14 AM
#39
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>>Why dont you list out all the turbos that you can run 32psi on with a single, I bet I can list a lot more turbos that CANT run 32psi.<<
Are you serious ???? any T-series turbo or big-shaft turbo will run 30+++psi
>>I think you missed the entire point anyway. The point was that on pump gas (17psi or less) the twins are going to hold thier own agaist any single thats smaller than a T72. No one knows if they will contunue making power at higher boost or not because no one has had them over 17psi.<<
Sorry, I could name a few that will outflow those twins @14-17psi.....T70, T66, T64, TE-63 and possibly a 62-1 wheel. Any of them will make over 400rwh @ 15psi.
>>Davids car will be good for about 125-127mph traps on pump gas. What are your traps on pump gas?
Stephen <<
Easier said then done !!!
I respect the hp numbers from the modified twins *but* lets not overrate them and say they're better then any single turbo at a given boost.
Those exhaust housings and manifold could only flow so much before your turbine inlet pressure gets dangerously high.
Time will tell..................
JD
Are you serious ???? any T-series turbo or big-shaft turbo will run 30+++psi
>>I think you missed the entire point anyway. The point was that on pump gas (17psi or less) the twins are going to hold thier own agaist any single thats smaller than a T72. No one knows if they will contunue making power at higher boost or not because no one has had them over 17psi.<<
Sorry, I could name a few that will outflow those twins @14-17psi.....T70, T66, T64, TE-63 and possibly a 62-1 wheel. Any of them will make over 400rwh @ 15psi.
>>Davids car will be good for about 125-127mph traps on pump gas. What are your traps on pump gas?
Stephen <<
Easier said then done !!!
I respect the hp numbers from the modified twins *but* lets not overrate them and say they're better then any single turbo at a given boost.
Those exhaust housings and manifold could only flow so much before your turbine inlet pressure gets dangerously high.
Time will tell..................
JD
02-06-05, 04:31 AM
#40
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can I assume you have steves stage 3 street port?
bryan should have my turbo done in four days or so. Steve is getting it overnighted and we should see my dyno sheets within the next week or so.
I am running a t62-1 kit with just about everything. The goals I set were 430 to the wheels at 16-17 psi. I have steves stage 3 port but am running unclipped wheels in order to keep more umpf down low. There is a bit of custom experimentation going on with my car. I am anxious to see how it does after all the research and hard work.
it will be good to compare these two cars asap I think....a good idea where they stand when the motor and single are built by the same two that built the twins and ported motor in this thread.
I think steve and bryan will agree...assuming my car does great on the dyno. I am considering testing mine on two different dynos in order to insure accuracy of numbers.
best of luck with your car. I hope it holds up for a long time. Go kill some vipers or something.
Jason
Jason
bryan should have my turbo done in four days or so. Steve is getting it overnighted and we should see my dyno sheets within the next week or so.
I am running a t62-1 kit with just about everything. The goals I set were 430 to the wheels at 16-17 psi. I have steves stage 3 port but am running unclipped wheels in order to keep more umpf down low. There is a bit of custom experimentation going on with my car. I am anxious to see how it does after all the research and hard work.
it will be good to compare these two cars asap I think....a good idea where they stand when the motor and single are built by the same two that built the twins and ported motor in this thread.
I think steve and bryan will agree...assuming my car does great on the dyno. I am considering testing mine on two different dynos in order to insure accuracy of numbers.
best of luck with your car. I hope it holds up for a long time. Go kill some vipers or something.
Jason
Jason
02-06-05, 08:22 PM
#42
BNR built motor and twins
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Keep telling yourself that buddy. I doubt you even have a clue...
These stage 3's are a great upgrade! I had the choice between any single and the stage 3's, I picked the right set!
These stage 3's are a great upgrade! I had the choice between any single and the stage 3's, I picked the right set!
02-06-05, 08:23 PM
#43
BNR built motor and twins
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Originally Posted by speedy41
Does BNR have a website? I cant find it.
It's just a pic and his number right now.
02-06-05, 10:46 PM
#45
Original Gangster/Rotary!
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Originally Posted by superior force
when someone gets the BNRs running sequential, I'll be impressed....until then, a medium sized single is superior
let's face it, the stock exhaust manifold is crap, no matter how much porting and misc gyrations are used to massage it
let's face it, the stock exhaust manifold is crap, no matter how much porting and misc gyrations are used to massage it
I will run ANY single turbo on pump gas with my BNRs without reservation. Any NJ area takers?
02-06-05, 11:20 PM
#46
Missin' my FD
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Originally Posted by GoodfellaFD3S
What are your credentials? What have you dynoed? What have you trapped? Define "medium-sized single" please.
I will run ANY single turbo on pump gas with my BNRs without reservation. Any NJ area takers?
I will run ANY single turbo on pump gas with my BNRs without reservation. Any NJ area takers?
It would be interesting to run sometime, Rich. I usually keep it at 14 psi on 93 octane. If I remember correctly, that's around 380 whp for me. Of course, I suck at going from a stop, so I'll have to practice some more if that's your race.
Last edited by pianoprodigy; 02-06-05 at 11:23 PM.
02-07-05, 03:48 AM
#47
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>>I will run ANY single turbo on pump gas with my BNRs without reservation. Any NJ area takers?<<
Rich, you're kidding right?
I'll take you on that offer.....just to prove a point !!!
This BNR thing is getting out of hand.
I'm sure Bryan has gone thru great lenghts to offer a "modified oem twin-turbo" that would offer more performance over a stock set ....just like others have tried.
To say they outperform any single turbo at a given boost is ridiculous!!!!
Let's just say ......they're a good alternative for those who want run less then 20psi and maintain stock appearance *but* not the IDEAL choice.
Look at the dyno sheet......full boost @ 4.5krpm !!!
Here's a comparison of my stocks twins(18psi), BNRs and a GR67 turbo running same boost(17psi) and both GR67 and BNRs tuned by Steve.
BNRs spool up like a single.
Looking forward to a nice open highway pull....
JD
Rich, you're kidding right?
I'll take you on that offer.....just to prove a point !!!
This BNR thing is getting out of hand.
I'm sure Bryan has gone thru great lenghts to offer a "modified oem twin-turbo" that would offer more performance over a stock set ....just like others have tried.
To say they outperform any single turbo at a given boost is ridiculous!!!!
Let's just say ......they're a good alternative for those who want run less then 20psi and maintain stock appearance *but* not the IDEAL choice.
Look at the dyno sheet......full boost @ 4.5krpm !!!
Here's a comparison of my stocks twins(18psi), BNRs and a GR67 turbo running same boost(17psi) and both GR67 and BNRs tuned by Steve.
BNRs spool up like a single.
Looking forward to a nice open highway pull....
JD
02-07-05, 03:50 AM
#48
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02-07-05, 05:59 AM
#49
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Originally Posted by GoodfellaFD3S
I will run ANY single turbo on pump gas with my BNRs without reservation. Any NJ area takers?
