Gas Prices and FD ownership
08-09-06, 01:56 PM
#26
Potato Love
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by Karack
well it's about another $15 in gas vs the other cars you mentioned and many people made good points about it being the registration/taxes and worn out/broken components at the track.. $15 isn't much in the grand scheme of things.
08-09-06, 02:41 PM
#29
Originally Posted by Larz
I don't think you guys are understanding I'm not concerned with gas prices for just being around town. it's the long hauls to race that's killing me.
08-09-06, 03:02 PM
#30
Potato Love
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by Sgtblue
As the son of a working-class family and former dirt-frickin' poor college student... I remember. And I appreciate your concern. But the arguments against changing vehicles is still pretty strong. It would take you along time to off-set the (likely) higher purchase cost, taxes, insurance and depreciation with cheaper tires and slightly better highway mileage. Not to mention that there probably aren't alot of cars in your budget that would perform as well as your FD.
08-09-06, 03:11 PM
#31
Owning a miata is far cheaper than owning an FD.
Miatas simply do not break. FDs break constantly. Keep this in mind as another data point.
Miata tires are far cheaper to buy, take 87 oct, handle well out of the box, and a ton of other things. Oh yes, you can also daily drive your miata and have no worries and get 30+mpg combined.
I consistantly get 30+mpg combined in my miata. The last tank was 34.5mpg combined
Negatives are that the miata is far slower. Its smaller. (though the miata actually has more usable cargo room than the FD I'd argue) You will not get the compliments you get in the FD. All of your buddies besides autox'ers will likely tease you about owning a miata.
Personally, If I had to choose one of the other and I felt strapped for cash, I would go miata. At least I know its not going to < blow the engine up >, <lose a turbo>, or < one of the other million common problems on FD's > tommorow.
Food for thought...
Miatas simply do not break. FDs break constantly. Keep this in mind as another data point.
Miata tires are far cheaper to buy, take 87 oct, handle well out of the box, and a ton of other things. Oh yes, you can also daily drive your miata and have no worries and get 30+mpg combined.
I consistantly get 30+mpg combined in my miata. The last tank was 34.5mpg combined
Negatives are that the miata is far slower. Its smaller. (though the miata actually has more usable cargo room than the FD I'd argue) You will not get the compliments you get in the FD. All of your buddies besides autox'ers will likely tease you about owning a miata.
Personally, If I had to choose one of the other and I felt strapped for cash, I would go miata. At least I know its not going to < blow the engine up >, <lose a turbo>, or < one of the other million common problems on FD's > tommorow.
Food for thought...
08-09-06, 03:13 PM
#32
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my fd is my daily driver. in austin gas is about 3.13 a gallon. so i'm looking into keeping the fd and buying a bike to comute in and drive to and from school. i'll never sell the fd, even if gas gets above 4.00 a gallon. eat at home every night if at all possible. I'm a student 6-10 hours a simester, work 40+ hours a week and still have a little for gas. i found that by just takin it a little slower and not beeing in such a hurry all the time saves my gas. didn't they make a rotary motorcycle?
08-09-06, 03:35 PM
#33
Constant threat
Fuel cost has to be on everyone's mind, but really there isn't anything most people can do except just pay it, make up the difference from some where else in your budget. And if the fuel cost is related to a strictly hobby/pleasure sort of driving, then you just don't even think about it. For example, my boat can burn 33 gallons of fuel an hour. I usually budget around $600 for boat fuel for vacation, this year I budgeted $750. It is just what you have to do. Meant having a couple less Cuban cigars and one less steak dinner, you know? But this way I stayed in my overall vacation spending budget.
08-09-06, 03:42 PM
#34
Track junkie
I feel your pain at the pump. I went to VIR this weekend and blew through a little over 400 bucks in gas. I was getting 2-3mpg on the track doing 4 30 minute sessions three days worth, but after the sessions were over I had a different group of people drop by the paddock and ask about the car and the flame I was shooting out. I scared a guy in an Elise with the flame! 
Keep the beast you'll miss it and probably buy another one down the road and it won't be as nice as the one you have now.
Keep the beast you'll miss it and probably buy another one down the road and it won't be as nice as the one you have now.
08-09-06, 04:11 PM
#35
Originally Posted by c h I n e Z e~BoY
dude, you guys are getting mpg in the 20's? My FD is completely stock... except for the ast and im getting like 15mpg... whats wrong with that?
08-09-06, 04:51 PM
#36
Cheese
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Originally Posted by neopj3
my fd is my daily driver. in austin gas is about 3.13 a gallon. so i'm looking into keeping the fd and buying a bike to comute in and drive to and from school. i'll never sell the fd, even if gas gets above 4.00 a gallon. eat at home every night if at all possible. I'm a student 6-10 hours a simester, work 40+ hours a week and still have a little for gas. i found that by just takin it a little slower and not beeing in such a hurry all the time saves my gas. didn't they make a rotary motorcycle?
08-09-06, 05:01 PM
#37
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I have a 1994 RX-7 and live in North East Wisconsin. I just drove my car from here to central Il and my average MPG down was 26 and had 28 on the way back. This is just over a 300 mile trip each way mostly highway
08-09-06, 05:12 PM
#38
2/4 wheel cornering fiend
Originally Posted by patfat
I feel your pain at the pump. I went to VIR this weekend and blew through a little over 400 bucks in gas. I was getting 2-3mpg on the track doing 4 30 minute sessions three days worth, but after the sessions were over I had a different group of people drop by the paddock and ask about the car and the flame I was shooting out. I scared a guy in an Elise with the flame!
08-09-06, 05:45 PM
#39
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Larz, I feel your pain bro. If I were close to you, I would definately help you out at the track. All I would ask from you is some insight on track driving.
As far as considering an M3 to replace the FD, I don't remember anyone mentioning the cost of peplacing a broken part on this car. You would definately get it good in the rear if you crashed an M3. How many people have M3 parts laying around their house like we do with the FD?
As far as considering an M3 to replace the FD, I don't remember anyone mentioning the cost of peplacing a broken part on this car. You would definately get it good in the rear if you crashed an M3. How many people have M3 parts laying around their house like we do with the FD?
08-09-06, 05:57 PM
#40
How about this....how about we investigate why the FD gets such craptastic gas mileage to start off with? Then lets' see what we can do to solve it.
Let's go through the train of thought.
Rotaries can't tolerate detonation -> Detontaion can be caused by excessive combustion chamber temperatures (among other things) -> The rotary engine runs hot by nature of the large swept area of the effective combustion chamber ->One way to prevent detonation as a ersult of heat is to cool the combustion chamber by spraying in more fuel
So.....would it be permissible to run an AFM closer to stoic of 14.7 if we could find a way(s) to cool the combustion temperatures other than spraying in excess fuel? What can we do?
1.) Upgrade the oil coolers (lower overall engine temperatures). Make sure that ducting is adequate
2.) Have the radiator fans come on at a lower engine temperature to increase cooling
3.) Upgrade the radiator (lower overall engine temperatures)
4.) Upgrade the intercooler to a more efficient design (reduce intake charge temperature)
5.) Upgrade the radiator ducting to a V Mount setup (provide better airflow and heat exchange to radiator and intercooler)
6.) Ceramic coat intake manifold and exhaust components to reduce radiant heat output.
7.) Install turbo blanket to reduce radiant heat from turbo.
8.) Install a hood with better engine compartment ventilation
9.) Install directed exit ducts on the radiator and fans so that heat expelled by radiator is routed directly out of engine bay
10.) Install water injection setup to reduce the intake charge temperature.
The million $ question is...... if we did all that, could we then tune the engine to safely run an AFR closer to 14.7?
Discuss!
Let's go through the train of thought.
Rotaries can't tolerate detonation -> Detontaion can be caused by excessive combustion chamber temperatures (among other things) -> The rotary engine runs hot by nature of the large swept area of the effective combustion chamber ->One way to prevent detonation as a ersult of heat is to cool the combustion chamber by spraying in more fuel
So.....would it be permissible to run an AFM closer to stoic of 14.7 if we could find a way(s) to cool the combustion temperatures other than spraying in excess fuel? What can we do?
1.) Upgrade the oil coolers (lower overall engine temperatures). Make sure that ducting is adequate
2.) Have the radiator fans come on at a lower engine temperature to increase cooling
3.) Upgrade the radiator (lower overall engine temperatures)
4.) Upgrade the intercooler to a more efficient design (reduce intake charge temperature)
5.) Upgrade the radiator ducting to a V Mount setup (provide better airflow and heat exchange to radiator and intercooler)
6.) Ceramic coat intake manifold and exhaust components to reduce radiant heat output.
7.) Install turbo blanket to reduce radiant heat from turbo.
8.) Install a hood with better engine compartment ventilation
9.) Install directed exit ducts on the radiator and fans so that heat expelled by radiator is routed directly out of engine bay
10.) Install water injection setup to reduce the intake charge temperature.
The million $ question is...... if we did all that, could we then tune the engine to safely run an AFR closer to 14.7?
Discuss!
08-09-06, 06:04 PM
#41
development
Umm...I don't know of any boosted car running near 14.7
all your idea's are great...but you will not have a happy rotary by trying to run lean A:F under boost.
rotary engines by nature like to run rich, period
all your idea's are great...but you will not have a happy rotary by trying to run lean A:F under boost.
rotary engines by nature like to run rich, period
08-09-06, 06:33 PM
#43
2/4 wheel cornering fiend
Originally Posted by fsae_alum
How about this....how about we investigate why the FD gets such craptastic gas mileage to start off with? Then lets' see what we can do to solve it.
Let's go through the train of thought.
Rotaries can't tolerate detonation -> Detontaion can be caused by excessive combustion chamber temperatures (among other things) -> The rotary engine runs hot by nature of the large swept area of the effective combustion chamber ->One way to prevent detonation as a ersult of heat is to cool the combustion chamber by spraying in more fuel
So.....would it be permissible to run an AFM closer to stoic of 14.7 if we could find a way(s) to cool the combustion temperatures other than spraying in excess fuel? What can we do?
1.) Upgrade the oil coolers (lower overall engine temperatures). Make sure that ducting is adequate
2.) Have the radiator fans come on at a lower engine temperature to increase cooling
3.) Upgrade the radiator (lower overall engine temperatures)
4.) Upgrade the intercooler to a more efficient design (reduce intake charge temperature)
5.) Upgrade the radiator ducting to a V Mount setup (provide better airflow and heat exchange to radiator and intercooler)
6.) Ceramic coat intake manifold and exhaust components to reduce radiant heat output.
7.) Install turbo blanket to reduce radiant heat from turbo.
8.) Install a hood with better engine compartment ventilation
9.) Install directed exit ducts on the radiator and fans so that heat expelled by radiator is routed directly out of engine bay
10.) Install water injection setup to reduce the intake charge temperature.
The million $ question is...... if we did all that, could we then tune the engine to safely run an AFR closer to 14.7?
Discuss!
Let's go through the train of thought.
Rotaries can't tolerate detonation -> Detontaion can be caused by excessive combustion chamber temperatures (among other things) -> The rotary engine runs hot by nature of the large swept area of the effective combustion chamber ->One way to prevent detonation as a ersult of heat is to cool the combustion chamber by spraying in more fuel
So.....would it be permissible to run an AFM closer to stoic of 14.7 if we could find a way(s) to cool the combustion temperatures other than spraying in excess fuel? What can we do?
1.) Upgrade the oil coolers (lower overall engine temperatures). Make sure that ducting is adequate
2.) Have the radiator fans come on at a lower engine temperature to increase cooling
3.) Upgrade the radiator (lower overall engine temperatures)
4.) Upgrade the intercooler to a more efficient design (reduce intake charge temperature)
5.) Upgrade the radiator ducting to a V Mount setup (provide better airflow and heat exchange to radiator and intercooler)
6.) Ceramic coat intake manifold and exhaust components to reduce radiant heat output.
7.) Install turbo blanket to reduce radiant heat from turbo.
8.) Install a hood with better engine compartment ventilation
9.) Install directed exit ducts on the radiator and fans so that heat expelled by radiator is routed directly out of engine bay
10.) Install water injection setup to reduce the intake charge temperature.
The million $ question is...... if we did all that, could we then tune the engine to safely run an AFR closer to 14.7?
Discuss!
Water injection doesn't "reduce the intake charge temperature", it reduces the combustion chamber temperatures...
08-09-06, 06:42 PM
#44
Originally Posted by dubulup
Umm...I don't know of any boosted car running near 14.7
Boost = higher risk of detonation than without
Boost + heat = even higher risk of detonation
Why not try to reduce the risk of detonation by removing the heat from the equation?
Originally Posted by dubulup
all your idea's are great...but you will not have a happy rotary by trying to run lean A:F under boost.
The only engines (that I know of anyways) that can continuously tolerate running lean are diesels. What I AM proposing is running closer to stoich and not using increasingly expenive fuel to do something that air and water can do.
Originally Posted by dubulup
rotary engines by nature like to run rich, period
Last edited by fsae_alum; 08-09-06 at 06:50 PM.
08-09-06, 07:03 PM
#45
Originally Posted by Kento
Sure. Why don't you complete those ten steps, then tune your PFC maps to stoichoimetric, and let us know what happens.
I'm just trying to offer up ideas to counteract spending a damn fortune on gas. If you're not working to solve then problem at hand, then don't complain about the results of the problem..
Originally Posted by Kento
Water injection doesn't "reduce the intake charge temperature", it reduces the combustion chamber temperatures...
Last edited by fsae_alum; 08-09-06 at 07:07 PM.
08-09-06, 07:10 PM
#46
Originally Posted by fsae_alum
......WHY do they like to run rich? Please elaborate.
Smart people feel free to correct this but....... there is also the issue with the shape of the rotary combustion chamber, which doesn't lend itself to efficiency. It's elongated shape makes it difficult to efficiently ignite (hence leading/trailing plugs) and complete combustion is harder, if not impossible, even on a properly tuned car.
08-09-06, 07:17 PM
#47
Originally Posted by Sgtblue
The stock ECU is set a bit on the rich side by the factory for safety.
Smart people feel free to correct this but....... there is also the issue with the shape of the rotary combustion chamber, which doesn't lend itself to efficiency. It's elongated shape makes it difficult to efficiently ignite (hence leading/trailing plugs) and complete combustion is harder, if not impossible, even on a properly tuned car.
Smart people feel free to correct this but....... there is also the issue with the shape of the rotary combustion chamber, which doesn't lend itself to efficiency. It's elongated shape makes it difficult to efficiently ignite (hence leading/trailing plugs) and complete combustion is harder, if not impossible, even on a properly tuned car.
Just trying to address the problem at hand....spending too much on gas.
08-09-06, 08:10 PM
#49
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u guys dont realise how bad it is for me here in the UK,,, we getting arss raped for we pay £4.50 per gallon here ,, that is $8.4 per gallon,,,,
if i was paying your fuel prices id be laughing, it really does make me think about seeling the car even though i love it so much
if i was paying your fuel prices id be laughing, it really does make me think about seeling the car even though i love it so much
08-09-06, 08:16 PM
#50
Originally Posted by fsae_alum
1.) Upgrade the oil coolers (lower overall engine temperatures). Make sure that ducting is adequate
2.) Have the radiator fans come on at a lower engine temperature to increase cooling
3.) Upgrade the radiator (lower overall engine temperatures)
4.) Upgrade the intercooler to a more efficient design (reduce intake charge temperature)
5.) Upgrade the radiator ducting to a V Mount setup (provide better airflow and heat exchange to radiator and intercooler)
6.) Ceramic coat intake manifold and exhaust components to reduce radiant heat output.
7.) Install turbo blanket to reduce radiant heat from turbo.
8.) Install a hood with better engine compartment ventilation
9.) Install directed exit ducts on the radiator and fans so that heat expelled by radiator is routed directly out of engine bay
10.) Install water injection setup to reduce the intake charge temperature.
.........Discuss
2.) Have the radiator fans come on at a lower engine temperature to increase cooling
3.) Upgrade the radiator (lower overall engine temperatures)
4.) Upgrade the intercooler to a more efficient design (reduce intake charge temperature)
5.) Upgrade the radiator ducting to a V Mount setup (provide better airflow and heat exchange to radiator and intercooler)
6.) Ceramic coat intake manifold and exhaust components to reduce radiant heat output.
7.) Install turbo blanket to reduce radiant heat from turbo.
8.) Install a hood with better engine compartment ventilation
9.) Install directed exit ducts on the radiator and fans so that heat expelled by radiator is routed directly out of engine bay
10.) Install water injection setup to reduce the intake charge temperature.
.........Discuss
Originally Posted by fsae_alum
Now we're talking.......so in theory, could you do some of the previously mentioned mods and safely tune CLOSER to stoich, like say 12:1 instead of 10:1?
Just trying to address the problem at hand....spending too much on gas.
Just trying to address the problem at hand....spending too much on gas.
In theory...I don't know....maybe. But in practice IMO (with the exception of water injection) those mods will only affiect the longevity of the engine and underhood components. I doubt they will allow you to effectively tune any leaner.
I know you mean well, but you can't reinvent the wheel and nothing you've mentioned is particularly original. ALL of these things have been previously considered. And by people here many times smarter than either of us.