rotorbrain

id rather focus on the Aussies and New Zealanders, personally. they do some craaaaaaaaaaaaaaazy stuff. haha. . . what about the Puerto Ricans?

paul

rxrotary2_7

i am with rotorbrain on this one.

R Xplicit

i tend to trust the japanese as well, if i am in the road course frame of mind.

however simple this might seem to everyone, it is really not that easy to figure out.

look at the us rx7 guys. how many of them build road racing rx7's? i know that cam down at pettit built my car, and i like road racing, so that is why i went with them. most every other MAJOR known tuner builds drag racing fd's and other rx7's alike. there are not too many road racing enthusists for the fd. there is quite a large followinf for the racing of spec 1st gen rx7's but none of the others. the aussies and NZ supporters of the fd also seem to be very involved in the drag racing scene. so where again are the road race cars? HMMMM....i do not care. now, to JAPAN. do you see many of the major tuners bragging about the quarter mile out there? no, not really, but that could be due to the lack of publication.

now, almost every rx7 on the circuit, whether drag or road race or N1 prepped, the car is MOST LIKELY going to have a FMIC, PERIOD. earlier in this thread, someone was questioning pettit using a SMIC, to correct that, they do sell the unit, but they race their FD with a FMIC, it is a spearco core, if i am not mistaken, and yes, to concur with one of the following posts, the radiator in the gt2 car that they USED to race, and race no longer is HUMONGOUS.

there is no doubt that in the end, ultimate intake cooling and efficiency is VERY high on the importance list. that is why the draggers are using the FMIC, and this is also ultimately why the japanese road course and n1 prepped fd's are using the FMIC as well. it porvides a very CONSISTENT intake temp, as opposed to a SMIC that has to force feed the intake air through a duct to make it to the IC in the first place.

i guess that if there was a largeer basis for group racing support, we might have more conclusive and applicable information so as to compare the two/three different set-ups in question.

to the guy who said that my info was not really right and that i brushe dover the temps, i can say again, the SMIC was VERY prone to heat soak, and the fact that the unit would get so hot, that it seemed to act like a convection oven for the rest of the underhood compnents. i went with the FMIC because it really only cost me 100.00 after i sold the pettit unit, and i wanted to see what the change would do to affect the cooling of the intake air charge. well, the charge temps went down, and stay down. there is no near 200 degree temps passing through my throttle body now, and i am happy.

i really like the direction that this thread has gone, because there is a real discussion that is going on. personal experiences are probably the most influential on this board, and the major tuners are a close second. i like to learn from personal experiences, because they are real and close at hand. guys like gordo, ryan, jayspec7, and all you other guys that put down what happened and what works are what influence everyone else the most.......keep that **** up everyone.....

Joker

excellent post^

ptrhahn

iTrader: (9)

Theres really no point in debating wether Japanese tuners are better than U.S. tuners or looking at what ANYONE uses in their racecars to determine what will work in your car.

BOTTOM LINE:
Racecars do not sit in rush hour traffic, run air conditioning, HAVE air conditioning, have to power any other accesories, or need their motors (and cooling seals) to last 50-100,000 miles. Many may have ports so aggressive, it won't matter if you toast the seals over time.... they won't last to see it anyway.

If you have a trailered, track only race FD w. no A/C, and can afford to rebuild your motor every few track events as needed... go ahead and imitate the setup you see on your favorite racer....

As a street car the FD has a barely adequete cooling system. If you want to roll the dice and compromise it further by putting something ELSE in front of your radiator....

Also, has anyone ever checked out whats BEHIND FMICs on succesful racecars? HINT: it is usually NOT an A/C radiator followed by a little koyo deal. Pettits car when I saw it at VIR had a MASSIVE custom radiator, fully ducted with some nice tin work, and certainly no A/C or accessories.... and Cam never sits in beltway traffic.

Do SMICs produce inconsistent intake temps? Yes. Does heat soak suck? Yes. Does it suck worse than overheating? Trust me, after you've replaced a perfectly good motor because you didn't have quite enough time to react to a climbing temp guage one day... you'll say "nope."

Joker

overheating seems over-rated with smic owners

most fd rx7 owners are not road racers or don't club race

looking forward to sleepr1's results with his (or her?) fmic setup

R Xplicit

here is a pic of the intercoolers that i have had on my car since i first replaced the stock one....

Joker

^ no contest greddy 2-row fmic wins

ptrhahn

iTrader: (9)

How is over heating "over-rated"? Its known as a common problem with these cars, and its a "one overheat = new motor" proposition, unlike a piston engine. So its not something to take lightly. Will your car ruin its motor the first day you instal a FMIC? No... but were talking safety and margin for error here, not just regular opperating temps.

My car w/ SMIC and a Fluidyne rarely runs higher than about 85c (185f) even in the dead of VA summer. in fact its never SEEN any more than 99c (210f) when the low fans come on.... and that was sitting in bumper to bumper traffic in the summer.

Back when i had a stock rad, I was out cruising and talking w/ my passenger on a hot summer day, A/C on. The second rad. fan failed, and one wasn't enough... in just a minute or two while i was distracted, my motor was done. I doubt this would have happened with my fluidyne, because i've never seen the system taxed that hard since installing it.... or if it did, i'd have had much more time to notice the problem. Now if I intall a FMIC, i'm likely right back where i started from or worse.

Theres no doubt that a FMIC cools AIR better and more consistently than a SMIC. But, it compromises a system that i'm not willing to compromise... Water temps are more important than air temps. This isn't a "road racers" issue, its a matter of safety and longevity for a street car.

All that said, i'm waiting for SleepR1s feedback too. I'd love to run a FMIC... but i don't think it can be done safely and reliably without a HELL of alot larger and more efficient radiator than any of the "stock upgrade" deals out there...

Joker

so was sleepr1 lucky?

ptrhahn

iTrader: (9)

In my opinion? VERY.

For every story like his you'll hear several like mine. My car still ran fine... it just puked coolant on the ground after i shut it off, and after a week or so the low coolant buzzer would go off when i started it. Motor had 15k miles on it and had EXCELLENT compression. Total shame.

i think alot of people WANT fmics to work so they've decided to only hear the success stories and stick their head in the sand when anyone points out the obvious: They block the radiator on a car that can't (usually) be overheated EVER. Whenever anyone posts a shot of their FD on this forum with anything like a license plate partially blocking the nose opening, everyone practically ***** their pants telling them how dumb it is.

NOW, if someone wants to sell a new radiator to use with FMICs thats way larger, and like 3-4" thick and reconfigured like the honker i saw on Pettits race car, maybe it'd be different. But this reminds me of threads where people ask "can i run the stock injectors with my new T-78 kit @ 20 psi? My friends uncle did it and he didn't blow HIS motor and i don't feel like spending $xx.oo for new ones". Sure you CAN, but you're asking for it IMHO.

I'd jump right on the FMIC bandwagon if such a radiator existed and i could run with the margin of safety i do now, believe me.

Joker

so are you discounting this? sounds like the water temps remain relatively stable between 90 and 95 c, with a koyo radiator and fans that kick on at 85 c?

ptrhahn

iTrader: (9)

I respect Dave B. alot, he did my new motor. We discussed virtually every aspect of my setup during the replacement process.

At that time he expressly told me not to use a FMIC. I'm not sure why his advise would have changed.

But, i don't consider "stable" temps between 90-95c good enough. Mine are usually between 80-85c. And thats with NO fan temp changes (mine don't come on till 99c) I run 50/50 antifreeze to water and NO water wetter. I have the stock thermostat. I've NEVER seen 220f (105c). Thats the way i like it. A LONG way to go before theres trouble.

R Xplicit

well, if you want to compare debitriments to the rotary engine, i should dare to say that overheating is not nearly as great an issue as DETONATION. PERIOD.

an rx7 that is mostly stock, and has been serviced well, will have LESS of a chance of over heating than it will of DETONATING. the cooling system works very well in the grand scheme of things, and allbiet for the plastic end tanks and the plastic AST, the cooling system works flawlessly. there are far fewer incidental issues in this matter with the exception of a failed COOLANT SEAL, and technically, they really do not have anything to do with the actual cooling of the engine....

the car can get substantially warm at times, and is sustained for a period or repeated too often, it will definately lead to coolant seal failure. however, i still believe that the cooling of the fd is fine with the exception of the aforementioned problem related items.

now, as far as problems, i think that if some of you are going to get too picky over these things, you better have detonation at the top of your list. i mean for god's sake, how many times do you hear people scream the "3 MOD RULE" over these pages, and not really know what they are talking about. i will get into that if it needs be, but i run my fd very hard and can get consistent sub 13 sec times on street tires and no ecu upgrade. the more that you can control your boost and intake temps, the more power you have in the fight against the MOST HIGHLY SEEN CAUSE OF ENGINE FAILURE....DETONATION...

Joker

i never run 50/50.

that's many fd owner's over heating problems.

even during the winter i've run 75% water 25% antifreeze with a bottle of redline water wetter.

yes i live where it snows.

during the driving season i've run up to 90% water and 10% antifreeze (there to lubricate the water pump seals). try running more water content in your coolant.

the_glass_man

iTrader: (2)

Water Wetter, loves the taste of coolant seals.

Joker

ptrhahn

iTrader: (9)

Hey, run it however you want to... i'm just pointing out that margin for error in the cooling system is awfully important. I wouldn't do ANYTHING to push that envelope, because i've payed for the results. Ignore it as much as you DARE.

Detonation may be the most frequently seen cause of engine failures, but its not largely due to high intake temps by themselves... its due to improper modification and more likely improper fuel. Plenty of folks want to buy the big horsepower mods, crank up the boost and chintz out on stuff like larger injectors, fuel pumps, ECUs, etc. The forum is full of posts with people asking how many mods they can "get away with" before they have to upgrade these parts because they cost big bucks and don't actually "make" any horsepower. The answer is: As many as you DARE to. Lots of folks are running around w/ injector duty cycles WAY above 80%. Thats a ticking time bomb because theres no margin for error. Its the same with the cooling system. I don't know anyone personally whos detonated a motor that was properly modded (knock on wood!).

A good programmable ECU like a PFC will compensate for varying intake temps by adding fuel. You run out of cooling system capacity theres nothing that can be added, and chances are you'll be chatting with Dave B. too.

FWI, Dave B. also told me not to run water wetter because he believed it also could have a detrimental effect on the seals just like the "extended life" coolant. Does it? Who knows, but i'm playing it safe.

Sure intake temps are important and detonation is a big issue... Theres currently no perfect solution for cooling air, water, and oil in an FD. Everyone will be rolling the dice and taking their chances where they see fit. I've owned an FD for 6 years, run it on the street and on several road racing circuits, and i've learned the hard way where I want to take my chances.

Joker

sleepr1 we await your results at the track, maestro

R Xplicit

if folks just spen that 1st grand on the ecu, i guarantee that we would see fewer engine faiilures.....no doubt...

Joker

$1300 for an apexi power fc with commander.

$1250 if you get a good deal.

rx7tt95

I took a peek at my Options 2 video, 89 I believe, that has the Axia black road race car vs. the Panspeed, vs. the RE-Amemiya, vs. the Revolution Racing car. Funny, all but the Panspeed feature RE-A aerodynamic pieces and the Revolution car has the widebody RE-A kit.

All ran some sort of variation of the SMIC, whether it be a canted design or whatever. The RE-A didn't have a front mount but a canted design similar to the CWR intercooler. The only car running a front mount was the Axia. Guess which one blew up? I'm sure it had nothing to do with the front mount as it seemed to happen fairly quickly in their car. Despite the Revolutions obvious width and tire size advantage, the RE-A car managed to come back and beat it by a few tenths! Make mental note. Need one of those sequential dog transmissions! The video has been out for quite some time. If you can get your hands on one, I'd pick it up.
Michel

R Xplicit

so they were fc's running, not fd's right?

louis

Joker

hmmm good point...

rx7tt95

No, FD's. There was one FC which participated in the "all tuners" battle. That particular battle featured just about every make of popular tuner car, NSX, AE86, Civic, Supra, S15's Skylines, RX7's, Evo's, WRX's, etc...guess who won? RE-Amemiya's RX7. If I remember correctly, some of the cars had almost twice the hp of the RX7 that won. Most, if not all of the piston cars used a front mount.
Michel