Forget LS1 and 13B Why not Renesis?
12-27-03, 05:04 PM
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Originally posted by BDoty311
I don't think I'll be eating much of anything. The Renesis has side exhaust ports, which is more fuel efficient because when a rotary engine spins, the unburnt hydrocarbons stay towards the outside ring. On a 13B that unburnt waste is shot out of the exhaust, wasting fuel, but on a Renesis those hydrocarbons go through the cycle one or two more times to burn them properly.
I don't think I'll be eating much of anything. The Renesis has side exhaust ports, which is more fuel efficient because when a rotary engine spins, the unburnt hydrocarbons stay towards the outside ring. On a 13B that unburnt waste is shot out of the exhaust, wasting fuel, but on a Renesis those hydrocarbons go through the cycle one or two more times to burn them properly.
12-27-03, 06:02 PM
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This is incorrect. The side ports allow the exhaust port to be completely closed (covered) before the intake port opens on any given rotor face. This port isolation and the lack of fuel blow by is the reason for the cleaner emission and low hydrocarbon count.
"Old-style peripheral exhaust ports offered unburned hydrocarbons a relatively easy path to the exhaust system. New side ports, which exit laterally, parallel to the rotor's axis of rotation, help to trap the unburned gases and carry them through to the next combustion cycle. A desirable byproduct of the new ports is whats said to be a lower, clearer-sounding exhaust note...perhaps ending those unflattering comparisons to outboard motors and chainsaws."
12-27-03, 06:51 PM
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Originally posted by tbielobockie
I don't see many military jets inching along in rush hour traffic.
Turbines are great for steady state operation but miserable when the application requires rapid changes in RPM.
Same reason turbos suck on sports cars.
I don't see many military jets inching along in rush hour traffic.
Turbines are great for steady state operation but miserable when the application requires rapid changes in RPM.
Same reason turbos suck on sports cars.
thats my .02
12-27-03, 10:03 PM
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Originally posted by tbielobockie
Turbochargers belong on big trucks and bulldozers not on sports cars.
Turbos make throttle response dull and never produce a nice smooth torque curve. Throttle response and flat torque curve make driving a car more fun.
Turbochargers belong on big trucks and bulldozers not on sports cars.
Turbos make throttle response dull and never produce a nice smooth torque curve. Throttle response and flat torque curve make driving a car more fun.
12-27-03, 10:05 PM
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Originally posted by tbielobockie
What is applicable for a full on race car doesn't convert to a great road going street car.
Those race cars never have to run in traffic and most importantly only have to be reliable for the duration of one race. Street cars have to last for years...
What is applicable for a full on race car doesn't convert to a great road going street car.
Those race cars never have to run in traffic and most importantly only have to be reliable for the duration of one race. Street cars have to last for years...
12-27-03, 10:16 PM
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Being a mustang guy, I have to ask why even go with an LS1 to begin with?
Pick up a 5.4 shortblock from a f150 truck, put on some 93+ lincoln mark 8 heads(same as 96-98 cobra heads) and a 96-98 intake.
They are allready 4 valve heads, so the airflow is definatly there. Put on a port job and have 500ish rwhp.
That is the n/a way to go and have maybe 1000 in your entire longblock(less the porting).
Or, buy an entire longblock from a lincoln mark 8 and a cobra intake and spray the **** out of it for CHEAP?
You can pick up any 5 speed tranny for cheap(t45) I just got one for $300 shipped to my door. You are now in the $1300 range and $125 for entire engine harness and computer. $1425, add a decent chip and be good to go.
My 97 cobra makes 290rwhp with very few bolt ons and is VERY reliable, doesnt have a problem with bending valves as quite a few ls1's do. My mods are catted mid pipe, under drive pulleys, k&n filter and catback.
Bolt on mods are VERY cheap also.
Hell, do a mark 8 motor and add a used vortec blower and have well over 500rwhp. used blowers can be had for a 4.6 with injectors, chip, fuel accesories for less than $2000. Thats 500rwhp(more with a pulley swap) for less than $3000 total invested.
I would never go with an LS1, unless I could get it for dirt cheap.
Pick up a 5.4 shortblock from a f150 truck, put on some 93+ lincoln mark 8 heads(same as 96-98 cobra heads) and a 96-98 intake.
They are allready 4 valve heads, so the airflow is definatly there. Put on a port job and have 500ish rwhp.
That is the n/a way to go and have maybe 1000 in your entire longblock(less the porting).
Or, buy an entire longblock from a lincoln mark 8 and a cobra intake and spray the **** out of it for CHEAP?
You can pick up any 5 speed tranny for cheap(t45) I just got one for $300 shipped to my door. You are now in the $1300 range and $125 for entire engine harness and computer. $1425, add a decent chip and be good to go.
My 97 cobra makes 290rwhp with very few bolt ons and is VERY reliable, doesnt have a problem with bending valves as quite a few ls1's do. My mods are catted mid pipe, under drive pulleys, k&n filter and catback.
Bolt on mods are VERY cheap also.
Hell, do a mark 8 motor and add a used vortec blower and have well over 500rwhp. used blowers can be had for a 4.6 with injectors, chip, fuel accesories for less than $2000. Thats 500rwhp(more with a pulley swap) for less than $3000 total invested.
I would never go with an LS1, unless I could get it for dirt cheap.
12-27-03, 10:47 PM
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the Reason LS1's are so popular, is 1) theyre all aluminum, so the weight difference isnt much of a factor, and 2) they already breathe very well, so ~500hp can be achieved without touching the heads or internals, 3) plus its just as reliable.
12-27-03, 11:44 PM
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Originally posted by teamstealth
the Reason LS1's are so popular, is 1) theyre all aluminum, so the weight difference isnt much of a factor, and 2) they already breathe very well, so ~500hp can be achieved without touching the heads or internals, 3) plus its just as reliable.
the Reason LS1's are so popular, is 1) theyre all aluminum, so the weight difference isnt much of a factor, and 2) they already breathe very well, so ~500hp can be achieved without touching the heads or internals, 3) plus its just as reliable.
They are also all aluminum
THe heads are allready 4 valve versions, so they breath great.
As for reliable, compaired to what?
Add a blower to that well over 10:1 motor and see how long it lasts. I have a video of a buddy making over 650rwhp with his stock motor(97 cobra, 4.6 DOHC) and has done so since 1999. That is over 3 years of 725hp+ abuse, and COUNTLESS dragstrip runs(well over 100)
Im definatly not knocking the LS1, as its one hell of a motor there is no denying that. I just figured since there is countless companies that make blower/turbo's for mustangs, and a handfull of ones for the LS1's, they have to be cheaper. Also, isnt an LS1 expensive? What about the harness and computer?
12-28-03, 01:26 AM
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Originally posted by Slither
Being a mustang guy, I have to ask why even go with an LS1 to begin with?
Pick up a 5.4 shortblock from a f150 truck, put on some 93+ lincoln mark 8 heads(same as 96-98 cobra heads) and a 96-98 intake.
They are allready 4 valve heads, so the airflow is definatly there. Put on a port job and have 500ish rwhp.
That is the n/a way to go and have maybe 1000 in your entire longblock(less the porting).
Or, buy an entire longblock from a lincoln mark 8 and a cobra intake and spray the **** out of it for CHEAP?
You can pick up any 5 speed tranny for cheap(t45) I just got one for $300 shipped to my door. You are now in the $1300 range and $125 for entire engine harness and computer. $1425, add a decent chip and be good to go.
My 97 cobra makes 290rwhp with very few bolt ons and is VERY reliable, doesnt have a problem with bending valves as quite a few ls1's do. My mods are catted mid pipe, under drive pulleys, k&n filter and catback.
Bolt on mods are VERY cheap also.
Hell, do a mark 8 motor and add a used vortec blower and have well over 500rwhp. used blowers can be had for a 4.6 with injectors, chip, fuel accesories for less than $2000. Thats 500rwhp(more with a pulley swap) for less than $3000 total invested.
I would never go with an LS1, unless I could get it for dirt cheap.
Being a mustang guy, I have to ask why even go with an LS1 to begin with?
Pick up a 5.4 shortblock from a f150 truck, put on some 93+ lincoln mark 8 heads(same as 96-98 cobra heads) and a 96-98 intake.
They are allready 4 valve heads, so the airflow is definatly there. Put on a port job and have 500ish rwhp.
That is the n/a way to go and have maybe 1000 in your entire longblock(less the porting).
Or, buy an entire longblock from a lincoln mark 8 and a cobra intake and spray the **** out of it for CHEAP?
You can pick up any 5 speed tranny for cheap(t45) I just got one for $300 shipped to my door. You are now in the $1300 range and $125 for entire engine harness and computer. $1425, add a decent chip and be good to go.
My 97 cobra makes 290rwhp with very few bolt ons and is VERY reliable, doesnt have a problem with bending valves as quite a few ls1's do. My mods are catted mid pipe, under drive pulleys, k&n filter and catback.
Bolt on mods are VERY cheap also.
Hell, do a mark 8 motor and add a used vortec blower and have well over 500rwhp. used blowers can be had for a 4.6 with injectors, chip, fuel accesories for less than $2000. Thats 500rwhp(more with a pulley swap) for less than $3000 total invested.
I would never go with an LS1, unless I could get it for dirt cheap.
Also, 290 isn't all that much man. You need alot more power then that in the FD (IMO)...
Jason
12-28-03, 01:31 AM
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Originally posted by Slither
Please enlighten me on how to acheive 500hp without touching the heads or internals? I assume you mean a blower? The same holds true for a 4.6DOHC motor.
They are also all aluminum
THe heads are allready 4 valve versions, so they breath great.
As for reliable, compaired to what?
Add a blower to that well over 10:1 motor and see how long it lasts. I have a video of a buddy making over 650rwhp with his stock motor(97 cobra, 4.6 DOHC) and has done so since 1999. That is over 3 years of 725hp+ abuse, and COUNTLESS dragstrip runs(well over 100)
Im definatly not knocking the LS1, as its one hell of a motor there is no denying that. I just figured since there is countless companies that make blower/turbo's for mustangs, and a handfull of ones for the LS1's, they have to be cheaper. Also, isnt an LS1 expensive? What about the harness and computer?
Please enlighten me on how to acheive 500hp without touching the heads or internals? I assume you mean a blower? The same holds true for a 4.6DOHC motor.
They are also all aluminum
THe heads are allready 4 valve versions, so they breath great.
As for reliable, compaired to what?
Add a blower to that well over 10:1 motor and see how long it lasts. I have a video of a buddy making over 650rwhp with his stock motor(97 cobra, 4.6 DOHC) and has done so since 1999. That is over 3 years of 725hp+ abuse, and COUNTLESS dragstrip runs(well over 100)
Im definatly not knocking the LS1, as its one hell of a motor there is no denying that. I just figured since there is countless companies that make blower/turbo's for mustangs, and a handfull of ones for the LS1's, they have to be cheaper. Also, isnt an LS1 expensive? What about the harness and computer?
With cam, springs, exhaust, intake, and tuning, close to 500 is possible without head work. Touch the head, you are good for over 500, check around and ask some LS1 guys.... You'd be surprised, hell I was when I first started research the LS1 for my FD. You don't need a blower on an LS1 to have shitloads of power. That's what they make bolts ons and LS1 edit for.
As for them being so expensive... You can get a full LS1 pull with T56 and ECU, even includes A/C for under $4k. I see them for about $3,000-$3,500 or so quite often.
Jason
Last edited by Jason93RX7R1; 12-28-03 at 01:36 AM.
12-28-03, 09:26 AM
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I have quite a few local guys with h/c/i LS1's making about 420-430rwhp, so I really dont agree with you on the no head work part.
And, yes, 290RWHP is quite a ways from 420ish, but this is with only a catback and a catted midpipe. That is rougly 350flywheel hp, thats a gain of right at 50hp with 2 mods.
I do agree though, that the DOHC 4.6 is one HUGE motor, and is very wide.
I done two of my buddy's cars, one a 355 LT1(409rwhp) and one a 355 with stock heads, big cam, etc...(352rwhp) so Im quite familiar with those cars. Even helped my buddy change his bent pushrod in his 00 SS 3 diff times(3 diff locations)
Im a mechanic to start with, and love to mess with cars. The only reason I see to go wtih the LS1 in this case is the size factor.
Good luck with your project
PS, the 430rwhp LS1 was tuned properly using a wideband and dyno also.
On a side note, just seen a dyno graph of a stock block LS1(346ci) making lover 500rwhp with heads/cam/intake and bolt ons!!
And, yes, 290RWHP is quite a ways from 420ish, but this is with only a catback and a catted midpipe. That is rougly 350flywheel hp, thats a gain of right at 50hp with 2 mods.
I do agree though, that the DOHC 4.6 is one HUGE motor, and is very wide.
I done two of my buddy's cars, one a 355 LT1(409rwhp) and one a 355 with stock heads, big cam, etc...(352rwhp) so Im quite familiar with those cars. Even helped my buddy change his bent pushrod in his 00 SS 3 diff times(3 diff locations)
Im a mechanic to start with, and love to mess with cars. The only reason I see to go wtih the LS1 in this case is the size factor.
Good luck with your project
PS, the 430rwhp LS1 was tuned properly using a wideband and dyno also.
On a side note, just seen a dyno graph of a stock block LS1(346ci) making lover 500rwhp with heads/cam/intake and bolt ons!!
12-28-03, 07:09 PM
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http://www.torquecentral.com/showthr...&highlight=4.6
It`s not an LS1 but.... you get the point! Diehard Ford guys are better off with the 5.0 for a swap into a small car. The LS1 is arguably a better choice but for the base price of one you can build a pretty stout stroker SBF. Nevertheless, even with the SBF sporting aluminum heads and intake, the LS1 will still be lighter. Like Godzilla stated earlier, "to each his own".
Toughguy
It`s not an LS1 but.... you get the point! Diehard Ford guys are better off with the 5.0 for a swap into a small car. The LS1 is arguably a better choice but for the base price of one you can build a pretty stout stroker SBF. Nevertheless, even with the SBF sporting aluminum heads and intake, the LS1 will still be lighter. Like Godzilla stated earlier, "to each his own".
Toughguy
12-29-03, 10:15 AM
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Thats nonsense. A helicopter engine doesn't change speed or load anywhere near as much as an automotive pistion engine.
I don't see a heli engine going to idle unless it's on the ground.
I don't see a heli engine going to idle unless it's on the ground.
Originally posted by Godzilla-T78
I have been working on and designing helicopters for the Military for over 5 years and those turbine engines they use in many applications are not built for "steady state" Operation. The only time they are at a constant rpm is at a cruise, otherwise if they are hovering, yawing, rolling, anything it has a nice fluctuation in the rpms. Turbines are not built to sit at a constant rpm either. The turbo that we use on cars were firstly built for aviation purposes during world war 1 by the DKW they also were the ones who really pioneered nitrous use in the internal combustion engine for aeronautical use. The airplanes that ended up being turbo charged neither sat at a constant rpm very long. They were fighter aircraft that were constantly changing throttle, and mixture. I am sure you v8 biased guys have your opinions but please dont try to argue that this motor is better than the other because the best policy to follow is "to each his own" and if you cant figure out what that means, each person is entitled to their own opinion.. maybe to them theirs is right, but to you it is wrong. Either way its their own opinion and there is no reason to try to sway ones opinion because you think yours is better.
thats my .02
I have been working on and designing helicopters for the Military for over 5 years and those turbine engines they use in many applications are not built for "steady state" Operation. The only time they are at a constant rpm is at a cruise, otherwise if they are hovering, yawing, rolling, anything it has a nice fluctuation in the rpms. Turbines are not built to sit at a constant rpm either. The turbo that we use on cars were firstly built for aviation purposes during world war 1 by the DKW they also were the ones who really pioneered nitrous use in the internal combustion engine for aeronautical use. The airplanes that ended up being turbo charged neither sat at a constant rpm very long. They were fighter aircraft that were constantly changing throttle, and mixture. I am sure you v8 biased guys have your opinions but please dont try to argue that this motor is better than the other because the best policy to follow is "to each his own" and if you cant figure out what that means, each person is entitled to their own opinion.. maybe to them theirs is right, but to you it is wrong. Either way its their own opinion and there is no reason to try to sway ones opinion because you think yours is better.
thats my .02
12-29-03, 10:16 AM
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The Ford motor weighs almost 200lbs more than the LS1 and it's too large to fit in an RX-7.
Originally posted by Slither
Being a mustang guy, I have to ask why even go with an LS1 to begin with?
Pick up a 5.4 shortblock from a f150 truck, put on some 93+ lincoln mark 8 heads(same as 96-98 cobra heads) and a 96-98 intake.
They are allready 4 valve heads, so the airflow is definatly there. Put on a port job and have 500ish rwhp.
That is the n/a way to go and have maybe 1000 in your entire longblock(less the porting).
Or, buy an entire longblock from a lincoln mark 8 and a cobra intake and spray the **** out of it for CHEAP?
You can pick up any 5 speed tranny for cheap(t45) I just got one for $300 shipped to my door. You are now in the $1300 range and $125 for entire engine harness and computer. $1425, add a decent chip and be good to go.
My 97 cobra makes 290rwhp with very few bolt ons and is VERY reliable, doesnt have a problem with bending valves as quite a few ls1's do. My mods are catted mid pipe, under drive pulleys, k&n filter and catback.
Bolt on mods are VERY cheap also.
Hell, do a mark 8 motor and add a used vortec blower and have well over 500rwhp. used blowers can be had for a 4.6 with injectors, chip, fuel accesories for less than $2000. Thats 500rwhp(more with a pulley swap) for less than $3000 total invested.
I would never go with an LS1, unless I could get it for dirt cheap.
Being a mustang guy, I have to ask why even go with an LS1 to begin with?
Pick up a 5.4 shortblock from a f150 truck, put on some 93+ lincoln mark 8 heads(same as 96-98 cobra heads) and a 96-98 intake.
They are allready 4 valve heads, so the airflow is definatly there. Put on a port job and have 500ish rwhp.
That is the n/a way to go and have maybe 1000 in your entire longblock(less the porting).
Or, buy an entire longblock from a lincoln mark 8 and a cobra intake and spray the **** out of it for CHEAP?
You can pick up any 5 speed tranny for cheap(t45) I just got one for $300 shipped to my door. You are now in the $1300 range and $125 for entire engine harness and computer. $1425, add a decent chip and be good to go.
My 97 cobra makes 290rwhp with very few bolt ons and is VERY reliable, doesnt have a problem with bending valves as quite a few ls1's do. My mods are catted mid pipe, under drive pulleys, k&n filter and catback.
Bolt on mods are VERY cheap also.
Hell, do a mark 8 motor and add a used vortec blower and have well over 500rwhp. used blowers can be had for a 4.6 with injectors, chip, fuel accesories for less than $2000. Thats 500rwhp(more with a pulley swap) for less than $3000 total invested.
I would never go with an LS1, unless I could get it for dirt cheap.
12-29-03, 10:18 AM
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Ford motor is much larger than the LS1. It won't fit and unless you put a blower on it it's not going to make the power of the LS1 because of it's smaller displacement.
Originally posted by Slither
Please enlighten me on how to acheive 500hp without touching the heads or internals? I assume you mean a blower? The same holds true for a 4.6DOHC motor.
They are also all aluminum
THe heads are allready 4 valve versions, so they breath great.
As for reliable, compaired to what?
Add a blower to that well over 10:1 motor and see how long it lasts. I have a video of a buddy making over 650rwhp with his stock motor(97 cobra, 4.6 DOHC) and has done so since 1999. That is over 3 years of 725hp+ abuse, and COUNTLESS dragstrip runs(well over 100)
Im definatly not knocking the LS1, as its one hell of a motor there is no denying that. I just figured since there is countless companies that make blower/turbo's for mustangs, and a handfull of ones for the LS1's, they have to be cheaper. Also, isnt an LS1 expensive? What about the harness and computer?
Please enlighten me on how to acheive 500hp without touching the heads or internals? I assume you mean a blower? The same holds true for a 4.6DOHC motor.
They are also all aluminum
THe heads are allready 4 valve versions, so they breath great.
As for reliable, compaired to what?
Add a blower to that well over 10:1 motor and see how long it lasts. I have a video of a buddy making over 650rwhp with his stock motor(97 cobra, 4.6 DOHC) and has done so since 1999. That is over 3 years of 725hp+ abuse, and COUNTLESS dragstrip runs(well over 100)
Im definatly not knocking the LS1, as its one hell of a motor there is no denying that. I just figured since there is countless companies that make blower/turbo's for mustangs, and a handfull of ones for the LS1's, they have to be cheaper. Also, isnt an LS1 expensive? What about the harness and computer?
12-29-03, 10:20 AM
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A stock LS1 with cam + springs is more power than the FD chassis can handle anyway.
My LS1 FD spins the 275 width rear tires all the way past any legal speed limit in the US.
Anything more is total overkill.
My LS1 FD spins the 275 width rear tires all the way past any legal speed limit in the US.
Anything more is total overkill.
Originally posted by Jason93RX7R1
I assume you know nothing about the LS1....
With cam, springs, exhaust, intake, and tuning, close to 500 is possible without head work. Touch the head, you are good for over 500, check around and ask some LS1 guys.... You'd be surprised, hell I was when I first started research the LS1 for my FD. You don't need a blower on an LS1 to have shitloads of power. That's what they make bolts ons and LS1 edit for.
As for them being so expensive... You can get a full LS1 pull with T56 and ECU, even includes A/C for under $4k. I see them for about $3,000-$3,500 or so quite often.
Jason
I assume you know nothing about the LS1....
With cam, springs, exhaust, intake, and tuning, close to 500 is possible without head work. Touch the head, you are good for over 500, check around and ask some LS1 guys.... You'd be surprised, hell I was when I first started research the LS1 for my FD. You don't need a blower on an LS1 to have shitloads of power. That's what they make bolts ons and LS1 edit for.
As for them being so expensive... You can get a full LS1 pull with T56 and ECU, even includes A/C for under $4k. I see them for about $3,000-$3,500 or so quite often.
Jason
12-29-03, 11:35 AM
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Originally posted by tbielobockie
A stock LS1 with cam + springs is more power than the FD chassis can handle anyway.
My LS1 FD spins the 275 width rear tires all the way past any legal speed limit in the US.
Anything more is total overkill.
A stock LS1 with cam + springs is more power than the FD chassis can handle anyway.
My LS1 FD spins the 275 width rear tires all the way past any legal speed limit in the US.
Anything more is total overkill.
Thats a function of your traction not the chassis. You need to be running some Nitto drag radials.
Course thats the problem with tq, it causes to much wheel spin. Thats why a high hp turbo car is more streetable than a high hp n/a car. Try to drive a n/a car making 500+ lbs of tq in the rain lol. I know what its like cause I've driven one, I'd rather have a car where the tq is up high, its much more tame to drive when the conditions aren't just right.....and when the conditions are right, you just drop a gear and go
STEPHEN
12-29-03, 11:39 AM
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Originally posted by skunks
beacuse you still wont have torque down low where it counts!
well that and reliblity and cost
beacuse you still wont have torque down low where it counts!
well that and reliblity and cost
HUH?!?! Tq counts up high not down low. You want to make some hp you need high rpm tq.
400lbs of tq @ 2000rpms = 152hp (not fast)
400lbs of tq @ 6000rpms = 457hp (much faster)
If your goal is to be fast then you want your hp up high....where it counts. Course maybe your pulling trailers, in that case yes, you need good low rpm tq
STEPHEN
12-29-03, 11:52 AM
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if you do it right, detonation is not a problem.
furthermore who cares about 500tq at 2000 rpm? from a standing start you're going to launch your car above that anyway, and from any sort of roll you're going to be running at least 4000rpm anyway.
we don't buy, build, modify, drive, and race these cars because they're good around-town cruisers under light throttle, we buy 'sports cars' for spirited driving (at the very least) which is going to require some more throttle.
if i wanted a docile car to drive around town in, i'd buy another volvo.
furthermore who cares about 500tq at 2000 rpm? from a standing start you're going to launch your car above that anyway, and from any sort of roll you're going to be running at least 4000rpm anyway.
we don't buy, build, modify, drive, and race these cars because they're good around-town cruisers under light throttle, we buy 'sports cars' for spirited driving (at the very least) which is going to require some more throttle.
if i wanted a docile car to drive around town in, i'd buy another volvo.