I wrote the following reply to a thread that was moved. Well, I've changed the subject and think this belongs here.

The OP asked what mods you wouldn't have done, and you gave a few examples. When I looked at the listing on ebay, the very first thing I said to myself was "no, can't register in WA state".

While I can understand why some folks want to do the air-pump delete and go with a mid-pipe, I do wonder if they realize how much they are reducing their chances of resale?

31 states and DC have form of emissions testing/inspection at least in some areas. 9 of those states, plus DC, have statewide emissions testing. In the other states, the emissions testing is concentrated in the most densely populated areas. While an FD owner in Podunk, ND may not think about selling his FD some day to a person living LA, he maybe should. Just a very quick bit of research shows that just the states that require emissions testing statewide account for about 27% of the total automobile registrations in the US. If you add in the individual urban areas that require it, the percentage will go up signficantly. Just in Washington state, the areas that require emissions testing account for over half the automobiles in the state.

Removing emissions equipment immediately eliminates 30-50% of the potential buyers of sports cars as possible buyers. Unless someone is convinced they will never want to sell their FD, never move to an area requiring emissions testing, and their county will never require it in the future, removing the emissions from the car sure reduces the potential value at resale. Anytime you cut out 1/2 the market for what you are trying to sell you reduce its value. This may be one of the reasons that the more stock a car is, the better the selling price seems to be.

Just a thought.

 

Surely the real issue here is that running without an air pump results in unreasonable emission which are detrimental to people and the environment.It is just antisocial.

 

Is that sarcasm?


My FD is emissionless, however I'm fairly confident I'll never sell it. Since I own it outright and it's parked in a garage, even in the worst of financial times, I'd only need to sell it for extra income, never because I couldn't afford to keep it.

In the rural areas of PA, emissions testing is limited to OBD-II(96+) vehicles, and even this is a recent law. Up until around 2004, the only emissions out here for any vehicle was strictly a visual with gas cap test. I've never seen anyone fail for not having an EGR or smog pump, however running a midpipe will get you flagged. If you have a resonated midpipe, most shops let you through anyway.

I hate cities and never plan to live in a metro area again, so I doubt if I'd ever have any need for emissions on my car. That said, I did keep all of the emissions controls(except for the cat, as you know already), incase I should ever actually need them.

I do agree that deleting the emissions probably would decrease the value of the car, however in my case that is not a problem.

 

I agree. I think running a gutted car for no competitive reason is simply selfish and obnoxious, at least to some degree.

As for resale, there are some buyers who will like a car more just because it's loud, very few who will pay more for the extra performance of a gutted car, and many who can't/don't want it at all because of deleted emissions. Considering how few FDs are still floating around for sale, basic economics will push the price up for cars with emissions equipment.

Dave

 

I think the number may be considerably higher than that. A mid pipe is one thing (it is pretty easy to swap back a cat) but pulling all the emissions-related hoses, solenoids, and valves from under the UIM is a great way to scare off buyers. I spend half my weekends working on cars and am quite comfortable tooling around under the UIM but I would never buy a car with a so-called vacuum hose simplification.

I would also put a non-sequential conversion of the stock twins in the same category.

 

Go hug a tree.

 

Oh jesus...are you kidding? Selfish? Explain how?

 

I don't think it requires an explanation because the consequences are pretty obvious to anyone who has read a newspaper in the last 10 years. However, everything is relative - SUV drivers and urban warriors in pick up trucks do far more damage than the typical FD driver with a mid pipe.

 

That's what I was thinking

 

Guys, 'go hug a tree' stopped being a witty comeback long before Britney Spears was born.

 

I really didn't want to start a flame fest on the environmental impacts not running emissions.

Even so, it hardly seems as if Dave's "selfish" comment should need explaining but.... If you decide to pull the airpump and eliminate the cat on a street car, you are deciding that a few extra hp in your car is worth damaging your neighbors health. Sounds selfish to me. Granted, we all make selfish decisions all the time and it is just a matter of degree.

My real point was an economic one. How much do owners of FD's diminish their cars value by eliminating some of the emission components? As moconner mentioned, putting a cat back on is simple enough, but if you have removed the airpump, getting the car emissions compliant is going to be really tough. As I peruse the fs section, the first thing I look for is an intact airpump and cat. If it doesn't have those, it would never be a car that I would be interested in buying living where I do.

 

Fix traffic issues in general (gridlock, overall congestion), THEN come to me and complain that ONE car takes of its emissions equipment that, chances are, isn't driven daily. I guarantee this, compared to however many thousands of cars that sit idling or in stop and go in larger cities is like pissing in the ocean. There are TONS more emissions that get expelled in that situation than a handful of open exhaust cars do cruising around.

 

I said "selfish to some degree". I didn't say it was the *most* selfish thing to do, or that it's the most important thing for society to rally around. But it is not insignificant.

I know most people aren't used to thinking that way. Most people just aren't used to thinking.

Dave

 

I think just fine. The world is much more resilient and it is insignificant.
You also suggested that it's 'OK' to for a race car but not for a streeted car. Please, tell me who gets to decide that it's not "selfish and obnoxious" for entertainment purposes at the race track, and is selfish for the average guy who doesn't want to deal with the trade-offs (which frequently include lower mpg) of running without emissions?

 

thanks for the info. i hadn't thought about emissions regarding resale value/market size. And the old thread wasn't moved it was deleted because of the dreaded reference to ebay ::dun dun dun:: Another way to get around emissions in certain states is knowing someone that is willing to get their hands dirty for you

anyway, interesting read, you learn something everyday. Now hopefully the car will still be able to sell. 5 days left

anyone that wants the item number pm me and ill send it to you. unless that is not allowed either then you are s.o.l.

 

This thread is hilarious, if the car is priced right and in good condition I gaurantee it will sell just fine, I have a little experience. Have I had some buyers not buy a car over the years because it didnt have emissions, sure. However, it isnt a reversable modification. Im not going to go into how ridiculous the enviroment argument is, I just pray you guys arent out buying carbon credits and making millionaires even richer with their convenient lies.

 

I have someone who offered 18,000. but he wants to do weekly/monthly payments. How reliable is this? i don't trust it because what if he just makes the first payment and then i never hear from him again?

 

If he stops paying you can hire a lawyer. Eventually it will go to court and you will probably win and receive a judgment award. If he does not pay the judgment you can hire a lawyer again and get his wages garnished (if he has any wages). The process could take several years, you will spend thousands in legal fees, and there is no guarantee that you will get a penny.

A person who cannot get $18k of credit either has no credit history or has a history of defaulting on debts. They are the last person you would want to lend to.

Only a moron would do this.

 

You going to go repossess the car yourself if they don't make the payments? What if they're Nigerian scammers and ship the car to Nigeria never to be seen again?

Don't do it. Too much that can go wrong.

 

On one hand, you can just not give him the car or the title until he's paid up.

On the other hand, you aren't a bank. It'd be nice of you to do, but there is a lot that can go wrong. As long as you keep meticulous records and don't give him anything until it's completely paid up, then I don't see a problem with it...

 

Railgun, you may or may not have noticed, but I wasn't complaining, just pointing out something pretty obvious. Whenever we chose to pollute or use an "excess" of resources (natural or monetary) we are making selfish decisions. I do it all day long and I'll bet you do as well.

I agree with your point that congestion and gridlock are probably a larger environmental problem than a couple thousand FD's with open exhausts. However, I'm not ready to give up my daily driver. Are you?

I tried to get my Ford Focus emission tested today. This is the 4th time that I've taken this car to be tested. Each time the ECU reports "not ready". I did some work on the car a while back and disconnected the battery. The Fords are known for taking a very long time to have the ECU get recalibrated. I have to make a 10 mile round trip to the testing station. On a busy day like today, I sat idling there waiting for a good 1/2 hour at the testing station. My car will pass once the computer says it is ready to be tested, and most cars tested do pass. Still, that is a lot of driving to just take a test that passes most cars. On top of that, there is the gas used to get all those emissions testing employees to their jobs so they can test all of us. Is the testing actually creating more pollution than it prevents? I wonder.

 

That is really risky. The problem is that if the buyers credit was good enough to get an $18000 personal loan they could get it from a bank. Why should you take a risk that a bank wouldn't? I suppose the only other option is to just hold the title and then report the car stolen if he defaults on the payments.

 

or create a contract

 

I'll agree that a car can have it's emissions put back on, but on many of the cars that would be a huge expense and one that a buyer would take into account when making an offer. "Priced right" is the key as you point out. There is a very old and time-tested law of economics called "supply and demand". Increase the supply the price goes down. Decrease the demand, the price goes down. Decreasing the potential market has the same effect as decreasing demand. It may be hilarious, the best comedy is reality based. The effect may be small, but I'll bet that it will become an increasing large effect over time.

No sense in arguing over the environmental issues because most folks don't have the background education to make sense of the science involved. Instead they just let themselves be swayed by the extremes of either an "An Inconvenient Truth" or conservative talk radio. Both sides appeal to lowest common IQ (and gets lots of traction that way).

 

Your right Gordon. I just wonder about the costs involved. I'm not a mechanic (as most have figured by now) but redoing the vacuum system and reinstalling an air-pump (where often that nice, big, fat, single turbo is sitting) seems potentially expensive. The cat would be the easy part.

I agree that for those who still have running FD's in 10 years, they supply/demand curve is going to look pretty sweet.

Don't feel bad. I'm a boomer myself. I agree with most of your assessment.

Good grief, no need. You string words into actual sentences and even use punctuation in the process. That alone seems to be a lost art, but you also added coherent thought and present your ideas respectfully. That is almost as rare as a low-mileage stock R1.