different v-mount!!!
09-20-05, 08:38 AM
#26
development
looks like an extremely hot air intake, compressors can only work so much with hot air before the the turbo...yes yes the IC will cool the charge, but I'm talking about efficiency of the turbo compressor.
great fab skills on the other hand.
*edit...missed the 2nd page of this thread, D'Oh
great fab skills on the other hand.
*edit...missed the 2nd page of this thread, D'Oh
Last edited by dubulup; 09-20-05 at 08:41 AM.
09-20-05, 08:54 AM
#27
2/4 wheel cornering fiend
Originally Posted by CCarlisi
Agreed! I can't believe people are glossing over this. it's drawing air from the highest pressure point on the car (front bumper) and forcing it out the bottom near the front axle!! This seems like a terrible idea.
09-20-05, 01:59 PM
#28
Originally Posted by rotaryextreme
This is a terrible example of a vmount setup. You will not be seeing the full benefit of vmount by reversing the IC and radiator positions.
... (snip) ...
By using the same components and put the IC on the top like the rest of the vmount setups, you will see at least 5-10C cooler on air temp and it will not affect water temp at all. It will has less lag as well because the IC piping will not be as long.
Chuck
... (snip) ...
By using the same components and put the IC on the top like the rest of the vmount setups, you will see at least 5-10C cooler on air temp and it will not affect water temp at all. It will has less lag as well because the IC piping will not be as long.
Chuck
As far as the 'hot air intake' is concerned, that's been debated countless times, with no significant proof on either side for turbo cars. The dyno will show if he makes power or not.
The other benefit of putting the IC on the top will be cooling off the intake manifold and the rest of the engine because the air existing the IC is a lot cooler than that of the radiator.
Hedgehog, I'd love to hear your results, it's nice to see someone thinking outside the box instead of just copying the Japanese tuners and assuming it will be the best setup. *cough, cough,* RotaryExtreme, *cough*
-s-
Last edited by scotty305; 09-20-05 at 02:05 PM.
09-20-05, 04:13 PM
#29
Eats, Sleeps, Dreams Rotary
iTrader: (2)
Radiator filled with water does not weigh that much.
When the air entering the mouth, it's already inside a scoop formed by the radiator and IC. It will have no where to go other than going through either the IC or the radiator. Even with a front mount, the air can go around the IC because the mouth of the bumper is not deep enough to form an effective scoop.
Recently, I have installed a monster vmount on a T04Z single turbo car which used to have a HKS FMIC. The water temp drops from 95C to 82C and the intake temp drops from 35C to 21C.
With the vmount IC on the top, the engine bay temp is reduced greatly. I have sold more than 70 vmounts and installed at least 10 of them personally. I know how it works, why it works, and how it performs. I doubt anyone in the US will have as much knowlege and expereince on vmount than me since I am the only US vendor making it. What I am saying is based on the facts, not just speculation. You don't need a vented hood for the vmount to work.
Chuck
When the air entering the mouth, it's already inside a scoop formed by the radiator and IC. It will have no where to go other than going through either the IC or the radiator. Even with a front mount, the air can go around the IC because the mouth of the bumper is not deep enough to form an effective scoop.
Recently, I have installed a monster vmount on a T04Z single turbo car which used to have a HKS FMIC. The water temp drops from 95C to 82C and the intake temp drops from 35C to 21C.
With the vmount IC on the top, the engine bay temp is reduced greatly. I have sold more than 70 vmounts and installed at least 10 of them personally. I know how it works, why it works, and how it performs. I doubt anyone in the US will have as much knowlege and expereince on vmount than me since I am the only US vendor making it. What I am saying is based on the facts, not just speculation. You don't need a vented hood for the vmount to work.
Chuck
Originally Posted by AndrewDevlin
i dont believe thats the main reason for putting the radiator on the bottom for the vmount
if you think about it the radiator and water would weigh more than the ic and air.
as for flow, all the flow would be towards the latter parts of the cores, ie !< (side with ! on it) this is because its the greatest pressure region
engine bay temps are always going to be high, the bonnet vent would help to reduce this; if you have a look there is a slot in the front bumper (although alittle too small) for the air intake, and the air out of the radiator should vent ok
if you think about it the radiator and water would weigh more than the ic and air.
as for flow, all the flow would be towards the latter parts of the cores, ie !< (side with ! on it) this is because its the greatest pressure region
engine bay temps are always going to be high, the bonnet vent would help to reduce this; if you have a look there is a slot in the front bumper (although alittle too small) for the air intake, and the air out of the radiator should vent ok
09-20-05, 04:30 PM
#30
Eats, Sleeps, Dreams Rotary
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I am not bashing him because he makes a vmount. What I am saying is based on facts. He would see the benefit of the vmount more if he places the IC on the top. And why would I bash him just because he made a vmount? He is not a competitor. He is a customer of mine. Maybe I sounded harsh but if he just changes the things around, it only gives him better performance.
The IC will not be heat soaked by the radiator heat. You never run one so how do you know? There are 3 types of heat transfer, convection, radiation, and conduction. Radiation heat from the radiator onto the IC is almost non-existing You can stick your hand between the IC and radiator and you won't feel any heat. Don't worry my physics ability. This is just some basic stuff for someone who graduated from UC Berkeley with a chemistry degree. On top of that, when the fan turns on, it draws the air into the radiator and existing at the bottom. For his setup, he will want to duct the radiator to exist the hood because all the hot air will heat up the rest of the engine bay. But if he has the IC on the top, he will not need to duct it. The air will go over the engine and existing the tranny tunnel and that also helps to reduce the engine bay heat. Just for your reference, I have ever converted a stock IC to vmount to see how it works compared to the stock mount setup. The air temp drops by 10C and the intake manifold is cooler to touch even after hard driving. Try that when the stock IC is at the stock position. Tell me more when you actually do some experiement yourself.
The air existing the radiator goes to the bottom of the car. When you are driving, you think hot air will rise to the engine bay when you are going at just 10 mph? You really have no idea on physics, do you?
It seems like you are the one who bashes me by saying I copy the Vmount. Look through all the Japanese magazines and see whose looks the same as mine. Vmount idea is great and I am not saying I came up with it. I fully tested it and offer people here a good prduct with a much cheaper price. So right now if anyone offers a new front mount or a stock mount, they are copying some crap too right? Maybe you can come up with something that no one ever does before and works the best. Maybe you should so something except waiting for Hedge to give you some feedback.
Chuck
The IC will not be heat soaked by the radiator heat. You never run one so how do you know? There are 3 types of heat transfer, convection, radiation, and conduction. Radiation heat from the radiator onto the IC is almost non-existing You can stick your hand between the IC and radiator and you won't feel any heat. Don't worry my physics ability. This is just some basic stuff for someone who graduated from UC Berkeley with a chemistry degree. On top of that, when the fan turns on, it draws the air into the radiator and existing at the bottom. For his setup, he will want to duct the radiator to exist the hood because all the hot air will heat up the rest of the engine bay. But if he has the IC on the top, he will not need to duct it. The air will go over the engine and existing the tranny tunnel and that also helps to reduce the engine bay heat. Just for your reference, I have ever converted a stock IC to vmount to see how it works compared to the stock mount setup. The air temp drops by 10C and the intake manifold is cooler to touch even after hard driving. Try that when the stock IC is at the stock position. Tell me more when you actually do some experiement yourself.
The air existing the radiator goes to the bottom of the car. When you are driving, you think hot air will rise to the engine bay when you are going at just 10 mph? You really have no idea on physics, do you?
It seems like you are the one who bashes me by saying I copy the Vmount. Look through all the Japanese magazines and see whose looks the same as mine. Vmount idea is great and I am not saying I came up with it. I fully tested it and offer people here a good prduct with a much cheaper price. So right now if anyone offers a new front mount or a stock mount, they are copying some crap too right? Maybe you can come up with something that no one ever does before and works the best. Maybe you should so something except waiting for Hedge to give you some feedback.
Chuck
Originally Posted by scotty305
Thanks for your input, Chuck. Bashing someone's custom-made setup is really classy, I'm sure it will help you sell a lot of your $2300 and $2500 V-mount kits. Have you ever tested a setup similar to this, placing the IC below the radiator? While we're at it, do you understand how physics work, with regards to heat transfer? This 'reverse setup' should avoid heat soaking the IC, since hot air rises, and the IC is below the radiator (which is generating the most heat). Contrary to what you said, it could actually avoid heat-soaking the engine and intake manifolds, if there is a well-designed ducting system guiding hot air directly out the hood vent (which should be directly above the radiator, improving airflow on the exit side). Hedgehog might really be on to something here, and I'm personally very interested to see how this works, even if it just proves that the Japanese tuners might have known what they were doing by putting the radiator below the IC.
As far as the 'hot air intake' is concerned, that's been debated countless times, with no significant proof on either side for turbo cars. The dyno will show if he makes power or not.
Please explain this. Where is the air exiting the radiator going with your RotaryExtreme setup, if not to the engine and intake manifold? Remember that heat rises, unless you've got ducting or a LOT of airflow to prevent this.
Hedgehog, I'd love to hear your results, it's nice to see someone thinking outside the box instead of just copying the Japanese tuners and assuming it will be the best setup. *cough, cough,* RotaryExtreme, *cough*
-s-
As far as the 'hot air intake' is concerned, that's been debated countless times, with no significant proof on either side for turbo cars. The dyno will show if he makes power or not.
Please explain this. Where is the air exiting the radiator going with your RotaryExtreme setup, if not to the engine and intake manifold? Remember that heat rises, unless you've got ducting or a LOT of airflow to prevent this.
Hedgehog, I'd love to hear your results, it's nice to see someone thinking outside the box instead of just copying the Japanese tuners and assuming it will be the best setup. *cough, cough,* RotaryExtreme, *cough*
-s-
Last edited by rotaryextreme; 09-20-05 at 05:00 PM.
09-20-05, 06:13 PM
#32
Eats, Sleeps, Dreams Rotary
iTrader: (2)
Thanks for the support. I am not "the man" but I don't comment on something I don't know. Just trying to help a customer to create his best vmount setup but some people just want to stir up some **** and take it the wrong way.
Chuck
Chuck
Originally Posted by nopistons94
Chuck is the man and thats all there really is to say about that.
09-20-05, 06:41 PM
#33
development
Originally Posted by scotty305
do you understand how physics work,
As far as the 'hot air intake' is concerned, that's been debated countless times, with no significant proof on either side for turbo cars. The dyno will show if he makes power or not.
-s-
As far as the 'hot air intake' is concerned, that's been debated countless times, with no significant proof on either side for turbo cars. The dyno will show if he makes power or not.
-s-
not heat soaking the engine...I didn't see a vented hood...but that would help tremendously.
09-20-05, 06:46 PM
#34
BNR built motor and twins
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As a Rotary Extreme V mount owner, I'm very satisfied! It works, period.
On the other hand:
I have no problem with somebody trying something different. I'm guessing it sounded good to him so he tried it. More power to him, it's his car. From the looks of it, he's got major time in the install and it looks like he did a great job. I hope he's happy with it once the car is up and running.
On the other hand:
I have no problem with somebody trying something different. I'm guessing it sounded good to him so he tried it. More power to him, it's his car. From the looks of it, he's got major time in the install and it looks like he did a great job. I hope he's happy with it once the car is up and running.
09-21-05, 12:23 AM
#35
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Originally Posted by AgentSpeed
As a Rotary Extreme V mount owner, I'm very satisfied! It works, period.
On the other hand:
I have no problem with somebody trying something different. I'm guessing it sounded good to him so he tried it. More power to him, it's his car. From the looks of it, he's got major time in the install and it looks like he did a great job. I hope he's happy with it once the car is up and running.
On the other hand:
I have no problem with somebody trying something different. I'm guessing it sounded good to him so he tried it. More power to him, it's his car. From the looks of it, he's got major time in the install and it looks like he did a great job. I hope he's happy with it once the car is up and running.
but as i stated earlier, how does the car feel at higher speeds? i say this due to the fact that i have driven cars that come both ways from the factory. a porsche GT3 vents air from the center radior below the car, and the steering can get pretty light. but in a GT2, air is vented over the hood and high speed stability is head and shoulders above the GT3.
09-21-05, 01:21 AM
#36
17,600 hp everyday!
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I'm not going to say one way or the other if its the way to go when making a custom V-mount, but sure is a clean install and great fabrication went into the install.
I'd like to see some results for this setup(i.e. power and heat).
my only concern with this setup on the track would be one off track excursion and theres alot of work and money thrown away.
beautiful car though.
I'd like to see some results for this setup(i.e. power and heat).
my only concern with this setup on the track would be one off track excursion and theres alot of work and money thrown away.
beautiful car though.
09-21-05, 01:31 AM
#37
Originally Posted by XSrcing
but as i stated earlier, how does the car feel at higher speeds? i say this due to the fact that i have driven cars that come both ways from the factory. a porsche GT3 vents air from the center radior below the car, and the steering can get pretty light. but in a GT2, air is vented over the hood and high speed stability is head and shoulders above the GT3.
typa concern. I got a quick n00b question about that:I know the air is coming in through the nose, but I'm sure a lot of air is going under the car as well. There's no possibility that air from underneath can find the IC above it as a path of least or lesser resistance, and flow against the intended direction? Or even, couldn't that air from below be a resistance to the air flowing from the mouth, lessening how much air it can pull efficiently? I don't see that same concern w/ the radiator, as it has fans pulling and hence directing the manner of airflow.
09-21-05, 01:29 PM
#38
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ok...this is getting weird with everyone's conjecture. where steve lee when u need him and his CFD papers?! ;p
a) the angle is not too shallow to flow...air will flow thru the cores no matter what angle....it may not be as efficient but then they are cores. it will diffuse the flow and cause some back pressure whether it's flat perpendicular or no. (otherwise those poor 911 TT and STi and other flat mounted IC cars will only be blinging their ICs) ...also, somebody better email Odula and tell them their VMIC sux cuz it's too flat! http://www.odula.com/page/fd_vspec2.htm
b) water in a rad does weigh significantly more so in that regard I agree it may have been better to have the rad below. but talking to the builder, we decided that as Scotty305 sed, it's better to tear up the IC core then rad core during unintended excursions. btw, the rad plug extends behind the IC core so i won't have coolant over the ic during flushes.
c) there WILL be a shield/duct/enclosure for the intake. but i beg to differ with regards to how much more it will enhance it. HKS turbos have the "mushrooms" right next to the compressor/turbines...i'm sure heat coming off those + the downpipe are way higher than heat coming off the rad (even if i omit the shielding) ... u guys make me laff with all this random thoughts
d) the pix doesnt show it but the vented tray tips back and up towards the rear so the air exits not 90 deg to the ground but a bit more backwards. the reasoning is that at speed the air rushing underneath will cause a low pressure spot thus drawing the air thru the IC core even more so...increasing its heat exchanging efficiency. insofar as added lift, well, i guess i'll be the guinea pig on that one...i dont wanna pay for wind tunnel time to find out. btw, the A'PEXi D1 car has a vented undertray in case ppl are curious. they drill big circles under and put grills over them. and they also exit straight down. lastly, if things dont work as theorized, it doesnt take much for me to put a revised vent or cover it up...happy now?
e) engine temps will be high w/ the "normal" vmic, large SMIC, or a FMIC so i really dont not believe that one will be significantly better than the other (barring massive vented hoods and engineered shielding). someone who have empirical testing may post results to prove us right or wrong otherwise until then, it's the theory i'm going with
f) the extra piping will not be laggy enough to write off this alternate design...mebbe for twins or small singles but i think the GT40R i'm using can fill this volume w/o problems.
g) i used to have the CWR SMIC setup w/ their CAI and dual oil coolers + the SRX7 ultimate rad. i was seeing the same temp drops as claimed by the above "domestic VMIC vendor". i have a thread somewhere on the forum re: values so someone can search if they want. the values were about the same as the claims by most FMIC and VMIC. I went w/ this cuz of the large IC core I'll need due to the single turbo + 1/2 bridgeport "requirements". a well ducted CWR will be as good as the other VMIC, imho. and i like the fact that my pipes enter the endtanks straight instead of at 90 degrees to the core. the exhaust pulse out of the back suggest the volumetric efficiency of this whole system (intake to cb) was not hindered..but that's MY SUBJECTIVE CONJECTURE
h) given it's not a product for sale, it really doesnt matter if others think it's the shiznit or just the *****...just something i'm experimenting with. considering i'm sunk close to CAD$100K in mods on this stupid car, i think i'm allowed to try goofy solutions...just ask JimLab
thx for all of those interested....it's good to have a healthy discussions about alternatives...i just hate it when ppl are so damn sure one way or another w/o data. i'm not sure, what makes others so sure.
happy rotoring.
a) the angle is not too shallow to flow...air will flow thru the cores no matter what angle....it may not be as efficient but then they are cores. it will diffuse the flow and cause some back pressure whether it's flat perpendicular or no. (otherwise those poor 911 TT and STi and other flat mounted IC cars will only be blinging their ICs) ...also, somebody better email Odula and tell them their VMIC sux cuz it's too flat! http://www.odula.com/page/fd_vspec2.htm
b) water in a rad does weigh significantly more so in that regard I agree it may have been better to have the rad below. but talking to the builder, we decided that as Scotty305 sed, it's better to tear up the IC core then rad core during unintended excursions. btw, the rad plug extends behind the IC core so i won't have coolant over the ic during flushes.
c) there WILL be a shield/duct/enclosure for the intake. but i beg to differ with regards to how much more it will enhance it. HKS turbos have the "mushrooms" right next to the compressor/turbines...i'm sure heat coming off those + the downpipe are way higher than heat coming off the rad (even if i omit the shielding) ... u guys make me laff with all this random thoughts
d) the pix doesnt show it but the vented tray tips back and up towards the rear so the air exits not 90 deg to the ground but a bit more backwards. the reasoning is that at speed the air rushing underneath will cause a low pressure spot thus drawing the air thru the IC core even more so...increasing its heat exchanging efficiency. insofar as added lift, well, i guess i'll be the guinea pig on that one...i dont wanna pay for wind tunnel time to find out. btw, the A'PEXi D1 car has a vented undertray in case ppl are curious. they drill big circles under and put grills over them. and they also exit straight down. lastly, if things dont work as theorized, it doesnt take much for me to put a revised vent or cover it up...happy now?
e) engine temps will be high w/ the "normal" vmic, large SMIC, or a FMIC so i really dont not believe that one will be significantly better than the other (barring massive vented hoods and engineered shielding). someone who have empirical testing may post results to prove us right or wrong otherwise until then, it's the theory i'm going with
f) the extra piping will not be laggy enough to write off this alternate design...mebbe for twins or small singles but i think the GT40R i'm using can fill this volume w/o problems.
g) i used to have the CWR SMIC setup w/ their CAI and dual oil coolers + the SRX7 ultimate rad. i was seeing the same temp drops as claimed by the above "domestic VMIC vendor". i have a thread somewhere on the forum re: values so someone can search if they want. the values were about the same as the claims by most FMIC and VMIC. I went w/ this cuz of the large IC core I'll need due to the single turbo + 1/2 bridgeport "requirements". a well ducted CWR will be as good as the other VMIC, imho. and i like the fact that my pipes enter the endtanks straight instead of at 90 degrees to the core. the exhaust pulse out of the back suggest the volumetric efficiency of this whole system (intake to cb) was not hindered..but that's MY SUBJECTIVE CONJECTURE
h) given it's not a product for sale, it really doesnt matter if others think it's the shiznit or just the *****...just something i'm experimenting with. considering i'm sunk close to CAD$100K in mods on this stupid car, i think i'm allowed to try goofy solutions...just ask JimLab
thx for all of those interested....it's good to have a healthy discussions about alternatives...i just hate it when ppl are so damn sure one way or another w/o data. i'm not sure, what makes others so sure.
happy rotoring.
09-21-05, 01:38 PM
#39
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Thanks for your response I was waiting for that HedgeHog. I hope this works well for you and you are not discouraged from posting your impressions with this setup.
09-21-05, 03:28 PM
#41
Wow, What is up with the bashing ? You'd think we were talking about a honda. Being different is what having a Rx 7 or a rotary power car is about.
That is a good looking Fabrication work and some new thinking. If we all did not try new things , we would never know if it would work out or not. Porting a engine is one good example.
As for comments on the set-up, I rather hear it from the person who is driving it. Than a guy in a chair talking about it from some pics. For the intake being close to the radiator fans, that may be so. But how hard is it to fab up a new intake, if it does not work .
All in all , i am very interested to see how it would work out. if the vent in the back of the IC would help in the temps like a vented hood by creating a low pressure area just outside the car.
Now....HedgeHog. How about more pics than
..hehe..
That is a good looking Fabrication work and some new thinking. If we all did not try new things , we would never know if it would work out or not. Porting a engine is one good example.
As for comments on the set-up, I rather hear it from the person who is driving it. Than a guy in a chair talking about it from some pics. For the intake being close to the radiator fans, that may be so. But how hard is it to fab up a new intake, if it does not work .
All in all , i am very interested to see how it would work out. if the vent in the back of the IC would help in the temps like a vented hood by creating a low pressure area just outside the car.
Now....HedgeHog. How about more pics than
..hehe..
Last edited by SomeGuy_sg; 09-21-05 at 03:32 PM.
09-21-05, 05:26 PM
#44
2/4 wheel cornering fiend
Originally Posted by HedgeHog
a) the angle is not too shallow to flow...air will flow thru the cores no matter what angle....it may not be as efficient but then they are cores. it will diffuse the flow and cause some back pressure whether it's flat perpendicular or no.
Originally Posted by Hedgehog
(otherwise those poor 911 TT and STi and other flat mounted IC cars will only be blinging their ICs)
Originally Posted by Hedgehog
...also, somebody better email Odula and tell them their VMIC sux cuz it's too flat! http://www.odula.com/page/fd_vspec2.htm
Yes, this is all theory and conjecture, and you've built it already with some good fabrication and quality, so have at it. If it works for you, good on ya.
09-21-05, 06:11 PM
#45
Eats, Sleeps, Dreams Rotary
iTrader: (2)
I don't think you are reading my posts carefully. Engine bay temp reduces significantly with a VMIC vs. SMIC and FMIC becuase the air existing the IC is a lot cooler than air existing the radiator. With the SMIC or FMIC, you have hotter air existing the radiator blasting into the engine bay so it will heat soak the intake plumbing more.
My customers have swapped to VMIC from large SMIC and FMIC and I have all the data already. All the values I posted are not compared to the stock IC. They are compared to the customers' previous setup.
Setup 1:
Before: T04Z single with HKS Type S IC w/ Koyo Radiator; intake temp, 35C, water temp 95C on a 65 F day
After: T0rZ with Monster Vmount, intake temp 21C, water temp 82C on a 65F day
Setup 2:
Before: M2 large SMIC w/ Koyo Radiator; intake temp 35C, water temp 87C on a 70F day
After: Regular Vmount with Vmount air box: intake temp 25C, water temp, 85C on a 70F day
Nothing has changed on the cars except the VMIC.
Even though I use the Koyo 2" radiator as core. I modifed the end tank so it's a dual pass set up. That's why the water temp is lower even though it's the same radiator core. If you know a lot about the Japanese tuners, RE Amemiya came out with a dual pass radiator for the FD about 1 year ago. Koyo just releases their triple pass N series radiator 3-4 months ago. I have implemented this idea when I first started making Vmounts 3 years ago.
Even though your IC is at the bottom, the whole system is still better than a FMIC or SMIC, just not as its full efficiency. If you want the most efficient setup, you should put the IC on the top and do the dual pass radiator. I am not trying to sell you anything or bash you. I have done enough testing and making enough VMIC to know what works and what doesn't. I am here to help out an old customer.
Chuck
e) engine temps will be high w/ the "normal" vmic, large SMIC, or a FMIC so i really dont not believe that one will be significantly better than the other (barring massive vented hoods and engineered shielding). someone who have empirical testing may post results to prove us right or wrong otherwise until then, it's the theory i'm going with
g) i used to have the CWR SMIC setup w/ their CAI and dual oil coolers + the SRX7 ultimate rad. i was seeing the same temp drops as claimed by the above "domestic VMIC vendor". i have a thread somewhere on the forum re: values so someone can search if they want. the values were about the same as the claims by most FMIC and VMIC. I went w/ this cuz of the large IC core I'll need due to the single turbo + 1/2 bridgeport "requirements". a well ducted CWR will be as good as the other VMIC, imho. and i like the fact that my pipes enter the endtanks straight instead of at 90 degrees to the core. the exhaust pulse out of the back suggest the volumetric efficiency of this whole system (intake to cb) was not hindered..but that's MY SUBJECTIVE CONJECTURE
My customers have swapped to VMIC from large SMIC and FMIC and I have all the data already. All the values I posted are not compared to the stock IC. They are compared to the customers' previous setup.
Setup 1:
Before: T04Z single with HKS Type S IC w/ Koyo Radiator; intake temp, 35C, water temp 95C on a 65 F day
After: T0rZ with Monster Vmount, intake temp 21C, water temp 82C on a 65F day
Setup 2:
Before: M2 large SMIC w/ Koyo Radiator; intake temp 35C, water temp 87C on a 70F day
After: Regular Vmount with Vmount air box: intake temp 25C, water temp, 85C on a 70F day
Nothing has changed on the cars except the VMIC.
Even though I use the Koyo 2" radiator as core. I modifed the end tank so it's a dual pass set up. That's why the water temp is lower even though it's the same radiator core. If you know a lot about the Japanese tuners, RE Amemiya came out with a dual pass radiator for the FD about 1 year ago. Koyo just releases their triple pass N series radiator 3-4 months ago. I have implemented this idea when I first started making Vmounts 3 years ago.
Even though your IC is at the bottom, the whole system is still better than a FMIC or SMIC, just not as its full efficiency. If you want the most efficient setup, you should put the IC on the top and do the dual pass radiator. I am not trying to sell you anything or bash you. I have done enough testing and making enough VMIC to know what works and what doesn't. I am here to help out an old customer.
Chuck
Originally Posted by HedgeHog
e) engine temps will be high w/ the "normal" vmic, large SMIC, or a FMIC so i really dont not believe that one will be significantly better than the other (barring massive vented hoods and engineered shielding). someone who have empirical testing may post results to prove us right or wrong otherwise until then, it's the theory i'm going with
g) i used to have the CWR SMIC setup w/ their CAI and dual oil coolers + the SRX7 ultimate rad. i was seeing the same temp drops as claimed by the above "domestic VMIC vendor". i have a thread somewhere on the forum re: values so someone can search if they want. the values were about the same as the claims by most FMIC and VMIC. I went w/ this cuz of the large IC core I'll need due to the single turbo + 1/2 bridgeport "requirements". a well ducted CWR will be as good as the other VMIC, imho. and i like the fact that my pipes enter the endtanks straight instead of at 90 degrees to the core. the exhaust pulse out of the back suggest the volumetric efficiency of this whole system (intake to cb) was not hindered..but that's MY SUBJECTIVE CONJECTURE
09-21-05, 06:31 PM
#46
Eats, Sleeps, Dreams Rotary
iTrader: (2)
With the scoop, the air can be forced through the IC and raidator. Hedgehog has pretty good shield and scoop design. I will not be worrying about radiator or IC not getting enough air or the air speed reduction entering the cores. He also has the GTC bumper which has a much larger opening than stock. There is going to be plenty of air.
If you want to talk about theories, you also have to talk about compromises. The best set up will be both IC and radiator sitting straight up and each has its own air ducts. But you can't do that with FD. There is not enough space or bumper openting. VMIC is the closest you can get.
Chuck
If you want to talk about theories, you also have to talk about compromises. The best set up will be both IC and radiator sitting straight up and each has its own air ducts. But you can't do that with FD. There is not enough space or bumper openting. VMIC is the closest you can get.
Chuck
Originally Posted by Kento
Yes, IC cores will cause back pressure no matter what position, but they will cause significantly less back pressure the less you have to force the airflow to make a turn-- that's simple flow dynamics there. At the rearmost portion of your IC setup, you're basically forcing the airflow to make a sharp near-90-degree turn in very little space, and through a pretty thick core (versus, say, the relatively thin core of the stock radiator). Yes, the negative pressure on the exit side will help, but airflow will still be drastically slower because it's had to make that turn. If you had enough negative pressure to get adequate airflow through those areas, then I'd start to worry about the pressure/lift effects on the front end at speed, which would bring you back to the beginning.
Note that any upgrade over 400 hp (from the stock 300) for the STi requires a FMIC. (Also note that the hood scoop forms a sort of airbox over stock STi top mount core, allowing the airflow a smoother transition into the core itself). Porsche 911 turbos have dedicated ducting feeding the ICs from a frontal perspective for efficiency.
Hey Odula: Your VMIC sux cuz it's too flat!
Yes, this is all theory and conjecture, and you've built it already with some good fabrication and quality, so have at it. If it works for you, good on ya.
Note that any upgrade over 400 hp (from the stock 300) for the STi requires a FMIC. (Also note that the hood scoop forms a sort of airbox over stock STi top mount core, allowing the airflow a smoother transition into the core itself). Porsche 911 turbos have dedicated ducting feeding the ICs from a frontal perspective for efficiency.
Hey Odula: Your VMIC sux cuz it's too flat!
Yes, this is all theory and conjecture, and you've built it already with some good fabrication and quality, so have at it. If it works for you, good on ya.
09-21-05, 07:00 PM
#47
I agree with Chuck..
For better result, I would put the rad at the bottom and IC on top.
The thing I like about V mounts are that the pipings are shorter than most smic and fmic. Also cools much better. This set up seems to have fairly long piping and don't like the intake location. I don't see much advantage over FMIC... Its same as me driving with my fmic and fans kicked on all the time..
For better result, I would put the rad at the bottom and IC on top.
The thing I like about V mounts are that the pipings are shorter than most smic and fmic. Also cools much better. This set up seems to have fairly long piping and don't like the intake location. I don't see much advantage over FMIC... Its same as me driving with my fmic and fans kicked on all the time..
09-21-05, 07:30 PM
#48
2/4 wheel cornering fiend
Originally Posted by rotaryextreme
With the scoop, the air can be forced through the IC and raidator. Hedgehog has pretty good shield and scoop design. I will not be worrying about radiator or IC not getting enough air or the air speed reduction entering the cores. He also has the GTC bumper which has a much larger opening than stock. There is going to be plenty of air.
If you want to talk about theories, you also have to talk about compromises. The best set up will be both IC and radiator sitting straight up and each has its own air ducts. But you can't do that with FD. There is not enough space or bumper openting. VMIC is the closest you can get.
Chuck
If you want to talk about theories, you also have to talk about compromises. The best set up will be both IC and radiator sitting straight up and each has its own air ducts. But you can't do that with FD. There is not enough space or bumper openting. VMIC is the closest you can get.
Chuck
I just think that the angle is pretty severe for the airflow (simply having a scoop on one end and a vent on the other does not guarantee sufficient airflow), but that's just me. And as I stated, if it works for Hedgehog, hey, good on him.
Last edited by Kento; 09-21-05 at 07:33 PM.
09-21-05, 07:52 PM
#49
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my 2 cents, the fabrication is very nice. but at the same time for him to put this much thought and effort into that he didnt think at the same time how the hot air from the radiator goes right into the intake? the reason for the vmount setup is to get efficiant cooling for both the radiator and the intercooler. the heat from the radiator would normally go under the engine. hes defeating the purpose for looks i believe. he should have just done a front mount.
09-21-05, 07:57 PM
#50
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Originally Posted by herblenny
...don't like the intake location. I don't see much advantage over FMIC... Its same as me driving with my fmic and fans kicked on all the time..
Originally Posted by rotary
my 2 cents, the fabrication is very nice. but at the same time for him to put this much thought and effort into that he didnt think at the same time how the hot air from the radiator goes right into the intake? the reason for the vmount setup is to get efficiant cooling for both the radiator and the intercooler. the heat from the radiator would normally go under the engine. hes defeating the purpose for looks i believe. he should have just done a front mount.