Decision time... rebuild or V8...
06-22-09, 04:20 AM
#51
Wangan Nasty
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Irvine, Southern California
Posts: 1,779
Likes: 0
Received 3 Likes
on
3 Posts
There is always a BETTER engine.
There is always a CHEAPER engine.
OP: Stick with the rotary, it's cheaper and faster in the long run. If you want a V8, C5 Z06s are dirt cheap right now.
06-22-09, 04:34 AM
#52
Do the rebuild. If cost, time, and simplicity are at all an issue, stick with the rotary and add the turbo later. That said, you'll never get the throttle response and low-end grunt that the LS1 brings--but with it comes a host of other issues.
The LS1 conversion costs a lot more than it looks like on paper, and you have to be willing to put a lot of work into it to make it just right. It's a journey. Dropping a hot single-turbo 13B on the other hand is pretty straighforward and can get you to over 400 RWHP without too much trouble...
I went the LS1 route because I wanted something that didn't require a compromise between driveability and power. My LS1 was 430 RWHP / 410 TQ, but that was with a head/cam swap. My new motor will be well over 500 RWHP but the cost is similar to that of a 20B swap.
There is no free lunch.
-ch
The LS1 conversion costs a lot more than it looks like on paper, and you have to be willing to put a lot of work into it to make it just right. It's a journey. Dropping a hot single-turbo 13B on the other hand is pretty straighforward and can get you to over 400 RWHP without too much trouble...
I went the LS1 route because I wanted something that didn't require a compromise between driveability and power. My LS1 was 430 RWHP / 410 TQ, but that was with a head/cam swap. My new motor will be well over 500 RWHP but the cost is similar to that of a 20B swap.
There is no free lunch.
-ch
06-22-09, 07:04 AM
#54
Want LS1, Get an Z06. Why waste time when you could go buy one thats out of the box 500HP and modern interior and chassis design for the engine.. I heard more people with issue going LS1 and personally, not much different than buying 02+ Z06 (which now a days maybe cheaper option then conversion). I looked into 06 Z06 and they go for mid 30s to low 40s... Which isn't bad for what you get.
I just feel that people who want to do the swap usually uses 'reliability' and 'headache' as an issue... So, Z06 resolves both of those.. Why spend several month doing the conversion and spend thousands and hundred+ of man hour?? Seem more of a headache to me... And might be easier to just go back to rotary..
I just feel that people who want to do the swap usually uses 'reliability' and 'headache' as an issue... So, Z06 resolves both of those.. Why spend several month doing the conversion and spend thousands and hundred+ of man hour?? Seem more of a headache to me... And might be easier to just go back to rotary..
AMEN!!! A man can pick up an 02 Z06 these days under $20k. It is an all around better platform and just makes more since if you want the engine. I know the rx7 has a unique look but for a DD I would go with the Z06.
06-22-09, 08:09 AM
#55
Original Gangster/Rotary!
iTrader: (213)
Water injection (and meth injection) has changed everything......you can make a reliable 400-450 rwhp on pump gas day in day out if tuned correctly. My current motor has 6 years of use on it (~20k miles) and I get in the car and drive it hard without worrying. Hell, down at Deals Gap (750 miles from home) I turned the boost *up* to 20 psi and didn't think twice about it 
06-22-09, 08:29 AM
#56
All out Track Freak!
iTrader: (263)
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Charlottesville VA 22901
Posts: 10,672
Received 412 Likes
on
250 Posts
Want LS1, Get an Z06. Why waste time when you could go buy one thats out of the box 500HP and modern interior and chassis design for the engine.. I heard more people with issue going LS1 and personally, not much different than buying 02+ Z06 (which now a days maybe cheaper option then conversion). I looked into 06 Z06 and they go for mid 30s to low 40s... Which isn't bad for what you get.
I just feel that people who want to do the swap usually uses 'reliability' and 'headache' as an issue... So, Z06 resolves both of those.. Why spend several month doing the conversion and spend thousands and hundred+ of man hour?? Seem more of a headache to me... And might be easier to just go back to rotary..
I just feel that people who want to do the swap usually uses 'reliability' and 'headache' as an issue... So, Z06 resolves both of those.. Why spend several month doing the conversion and spend thousands and hundred+ of man hour?? Seem more of a headache to me... And might be easier to just go back to rotary..
:
: djcelebra
06-22-09, 09:20 AM
#57
I'm going to buy a brand new z06, swap a 13BREW in it, and then post it up on the z06 forums and see what they have to say about it.
Point being; no matter what you decide to do with YOUR car, you'll always get mixed opinions and/or input; people will always have something negative or positive to say about it. You could keep it rotary and put some body kit or some modification that someone may or may not agree with and/or like. This type of crap will always happen; always. Albeit, I'm a bit biased and would personally stick with rotary; keep in mind that it is, again, YOUR car. Who cares what others think. Do what you want to do to it.
No offense, but these threads are pointless.
Point being; no matter what you decide to do with YOUR car, you'll always get mixed opinions and/or input; people will always have something negative or positive to say about it. You could keep it rotary and put some body kit or some modification that someone may or may not agree with and/or like. This type of crap will always happen; always. Albeit, I'm a bit biased and would personally stick with rotary; keep in mind that it is, again, YOUR car. Who cares what others think. Do what you want to do to it.
No offense, but these threads are pointless.
06-22-09, 09:26 AM
#58
LOL, yeah, while you're at it, swap out the flax-six in a 911, and the V12 in a Ferrari for Camaro motors, and convert an Audi Quattro to 2WD and see how much of a Porsche, Ferrari, or Audi Quattro their enthusiast communities still think they are.
06-22-09, 09:43 AM
#60
All out Track Freak!
iTrader: (263)
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Charlottesville VA 22901
Posts: 10,672
Received 412 Likes
on
250 Posts
I wonder how many guys will go through this 6 step program: Buy a bone stock FD, build it into a 500 HP monster, part it down to a roller, convert it to a V8, sell it a year later and start looking for a bone stock low mileage FD 
06-22-09, 10:22 AM
#61
DGRR 2014, 4/25-4/27/2014
iTrader: (6)
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Deals Gap, USA
Posts: 792
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I don't think this thread is pointless.
I bet most people who's interested in LSx conversion either read about it somewhere but doesn't have first hand experience... Mainly just reciting what they read or heard about LSx and wanting to do the swap.. Thread like this bring out many rotorheads who had experience with all types of car and driven them in various environment.. Hence, when Gordon and Fritz, both whom have ton of experience with different cars give their 2 cents, I tend to listen vs. some kid who never driven vast array of cars giving their 2 cents saying, "V8 is the ultimate car in the WORLD!!"
Here is the thing.. Hinson himself is about 30 mins from me.. His partners shop is baout 1.5 hours away from my house.. I've known Hinson since his very 1st V8 build. He has offered me a great deal on V8 swaps and I've thought about it but decided not to. Also, friend of mind did the swap and I've seen the build process. And seen what he had gone thru, I decided to stick with rotary. My buddy built it, made over 400 RWHP and sold it slightly over a month later to buy an Z06.
The point of this thread and why I spend my time typing this is to hope someone will read it and think twice before they get themselves into a project. Unlike what some might think, most people want to help not to just give BS advice so they could waste more time.. In this case, I have nothing against V8 conversions.. but original poster is asking V8 or just build the rotary.. I think some people never truly compared the Z06 vs V8 FD. And they think that its an easy swap but think that building a rotary engine is something very complex... Seriously, Rotary engine has 3 moving parts and everything is stacked together!!
Anyhow, its each person's decision to do what ever the **** they want to do.. But Please.. Think before deciding..
I bet most people who's interested in LSx conversion either read about it somewhere but doesn't have first hand experience... Mainly just reciting what they read or heard about LSx and wanting to do the swap.. Thread like this bring out many rotorheads who had experience with all types of car and driven them in various environment.. Hence, when Gordon and Fritz, both whom have ton of experience with different cars give their 2 cents, I tend to listen vs. some kid who never driven vast array of cars giving their 2 cents saying, "V8 is the ultimate car in the WORLD!!"
Here is the thing.. Hinson himself is about 30 mins from me.. His partners shop is baout 1.5 hours away from my house.. I've known Hinson since his very 1st V8 build. He has offered me a great deal on V8 swaps and I've thought about it but decided not to. Also, friend of mind did the swap and I've seen the build process. And seen what he had gone thru, I decided to stick with rotary. My buddy built it, made over 400 RWHP and sold it slightly over a month later to buy an Z06.
The point of this thread and why I spend my time typing this is to hope someone will read it and think twice before they get themselves into a project. Unlike what some might think, most people want to help not to just give BS advice so they could waste more time.. In this case, I have nothing against V8 conversions.. but original poster is asking V8 or just build the rotary.. I think some people never truly compared the Z06 vs V8 FD. And they think that its an easy swap but think that building a rotary engine is something very complex... Seriously, Rotary engine has 3 moving parts and everything is stacked together!!
Anyhow, its each person's decision to do what ever the **** they want to do.. But Please.. Think before deciding..
06-22-09, 11:31 AM
#62
Water injection (and meth injection) has changed everything......you can make a reliable 400-450 rwhp on pump gas day in day out if tuned correctly. My current motor has 6 years of use on it (~20k miles) and I get in the car and drive it hard without worrying. Hell, down at Deals Gap (750 miles from home) I turned the boost *up* to 20 psi and didn't think twice about it
I'm not convinced that the only people who blew up their engines were hamfisted. Me? Yes. But, when the vast majority is on their third rebuild... I've only met in person one person who hasn't rebuilt his 13b. Just recently, actually. However, his engine was on the garage floor and he was prepping for an LS2 conversion
The comparison with Ferrari is interesting - but perhaps stretching things a bit.
I do agree that going LS will impact the long-term value of the car. But, I don't drive my collectibles.
If I had the garage space, I'm quite certain I would have two. One rotary, one LS. I'd daily drive the LS (as I do today).
06-22-09, 11:43 AM
#63
Derwin
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: MTL, QC
Posts: 2,888
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am really sick of seeing threads like this as I cannot understand for the life of me why. The only possible reason I can understand is gas mileage other than that nothing else exists.
People who are on their third engines are so because either they didn't do it right the first time and kept blowing for the same reason or because maintenance and preparation is something that simply does not compute with them.
Look at your engine and look at the vast array of subsystems that are used to control it. Break down each of these subsystems and analyze their functioning. Going through this process of understanding why and how is what eliminates reliability issues.
You have auxiliary injection which reduces your EGT's to almost pistonlike levels and keeps your seal groves clean allowing them to perform their function and the reduction in EGT's will be felt in all associated components.
You have great oil in Brad Penn which will provide the proper protection for your engine.
You have various competent tuners across the country.
You have a huge database of knowledge across various sites such as this one, the "other one" and ofcourse the oldie but goodie in www.fd3s.net
and You have a huge aftermarket support which makes almost every single part which you could imagine.
With all these pluses I cannot understand going V8, use your sense of logic, be patient and be willing to put time into analyzes of your problems and the rotary will serve you long and well it sure has for me anyways.
Edit: I forgot to mention about the rebuild frequency. When rebuilding people usually go for two things that can affect reliability which is porting and resurfacing of irons. Porting is an art and when not done properly can have an adverse effect on reliability. Resurfacing irons also decreases reliability as it removes the hardening that Mazda does, it would be interesting for someone to do resurfacing followed by some WPC treatment on the irons I am sure it would restore alot of reliability.
People who are on their third engines are so because either they didn't do it right the first time and kept blowing for the same reason or because maintenance and preparation is something that simply does not compute with them.
Look at your engine and look at the vast array of subsystems that are used to control it. Break down each of these subsystems and analyze their functioning. Going through this process of understanding why and how is what eliminates reliability issues.
You have auxiliary injection which reduces your EGT's to almost pistonlike levels and keeps your seal groves clean allowing them to perform their function and the reduction in EGT's will be felt in all associated components.
You have great oil in Brad Penn which will provide the proper protection for your engine.
You have various competent tuners across the country.
You have a huge database of knowledge across various sites such as this one, the "other one" and ofcourse the oldie but goodie in www.fd3s.net
and You have a huge aftermarket support which makes almost every single part which you could imagine.
With all these pluses I cannot understand going V8, use your sense of logic, be patient and be willing to put time into analyzes of your problems and the rotary will serve you long and well it sure has for me anyways.
Edit: I forgot to mention about the rebuild frequency. When rebuilding people usually go for two things that can affect reliability which is porting and resurfacing of irons. Porting is an art and when not done properly can have an adverse effect on reliability. Resurfacing irons also decreases reliability as it removes the hardening that Mazda does, it would be interesting for someone to do resurfacing followed by some WPC treatment on the irons I am sure it would restore alot of reliability.
06-22-09, 12:54 PM
#65
DGRR 2014, 4/25-4/27/2014
iTrader: (6)
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Deals Gap, USA
Posts: 792
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There is no way in hell I would buy a shell and try to build it myself.... why?
1. I'm a rotary guy and too lazy to learn about building pistons.
2. I don't have much time and it would take me another 7 years to build.
3. Why spend more money to build when V8 FDs and Z06s are getting cheaper
4. I could get new model Z06 with nice dry sump and all the bell and whistle such as HUD, Nav, etc... so, why do I want pistons in 15+ year old car chassis that suppose to have rotary?? Especially if I want to Daily it?? If I truly want something to daily, I would buy something that carry 4 people and something more practical and comfortable... and don't give a **** if some moron dings your door
06-22-09, 02:07 PM
#66
DGRR 2014, 4/25-4/27/2014
iTrader: (6)
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Deals Gap, USA
Posts: 792
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What I'm about to say saddens me as they are a local shop and provided top notch job in the past....
BUT!, At this point in time, I do not recommend Hinson Supercars for your LSx conversion.. Recently I have met and heard horror stories about their work quality. One person who sent his car to them spent over $20K and over 10 months at their shop, when quoted couple of thousand and 2 week worth of work... And when car was received, it was a complete hack job..
Not only that, the customer's car was mis-treated and now the car requires a new paint job and such.
I used to recommend Hinson but something happened to them and I can no longer recommend them... IF you are thinking about LSx conversion and wanting them to do the job, please get everything in writing and don't pay them anything until you have a solid guarantee and agreement in hand...
Also, make sure to document everything in writing and take detail picture of your car before you send the car off. Its a sad day that I have to say this on this forum to warn someone I know, but this is for the better of the community.
BUT!, At this point in time, I do not recommend Hinson Supercars for your LSx conversion.. Recently I have met and heard horror stories about their work quality. One person who sent his car to them spent over $20K and over 10 months at their shop, when quoted couple of thousand and 2 week worth of work... And when car was received, it was a complete hack job..
Not only that, the customer's car was mis-treated and now the car requires a new paint job and such.
I used to recommend Hinson but something happened to them and I can no longer recommend them... IF you are thinking about LSx conversion and wanting them to do the job, please get everything in writing and don't pay them anything until you have a solid guarantee and agreement in hand...
Also, make sure to document everything in writing and take detail picture of your car before you send the car off. Its a sad day that I have to say this on this forum to warn someone I know, but this is for the better of the community.
06-22-09, 05:10 PM
#67
Mainly this thread was to get input from the V8 RX-7 guys and their thoughts on the swap, the ride quality, driveability, etc. It wasn't a pure opinion page. I've been a member here since I've owned my first RX-7.
My chassis has 118k miles on it and I plan on keeping the car forever. I just want to make the right choice at this juncture.
In addition: Rotary engines fail due to numerous reasons beyond owner's control. Sometimes its age, build quality, etc. Trust me, I'm no idiot when it comes to these engines. I've built a couple at this point and this engine was built by Pettit. Why the coolant seal failed? I don't know.
My chassis has 118k miles on it and I plan on keeping the car forever. I just want to make the right choice at this juncture.
In addition: Rotary engines fail due to numerous reasons beyond owner's control. Sometimes its age, build quality, etc. Trust me, I'm no idiot when it comes to these engines. I've built a couple at this point and this engine was built by Pettit. Why the coolant seal failed? I don't know.
07-06-09, 09:21 AM
#75
You may have jinxed me. My theft deterrant system went crazy on me last night. Unable to reset it by the key. Luckily no longer connected to stock starter so I can still drive my car. The headlights and horn are going bonkers though. Had to disconnect the light motors and the horn relay.
Have to go through the CPU wiring and look for shorts, blown fuses, loose grounds...
F**K!!
Pete, I'll give you a buzz later to give you an update on the situation. Can't drive to Jax with my lights bonkers and horn going...or maybe...